Curse

LifeInfusion · Mar 23, 2011, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Terrible idea.

They would need to more or less slam a nerf stick and hammer flat shadow form, Obsidian flesh, spellbreaker. Why? Because without enchantment removals on warriors, paragons, elementalists, rangers, and monks they'd be ridiculous. Mantras would be crappy.

And then warriors would be shafted again. More so than Dervishes (which have hex/condition removal) and rangers/paragons/assassins (condition removal). Wild Blow might as well not exist. Protector's Defense as well, and pretty much the whole Tactics line.

Then every class would need to bring res sig instead of a hard res like Death pact signet, Res chant, or Flesh of my flesh unless you run UA.

Also, monk/ele heroes would have even crappier energy management. Everyone and their dog would run Spirit Channeling or some sort of Rit healer. So UA isn't exactly as viable.

Plus every elementalist skill that relies on Assassin's Promise would need to be superbuffed (dual heats, eruption+churning earth, meteor shower) or glyph of renewal/arcane echoed/glyph of swiftness. Conjures might as well be deleted.

Everyone not a mesmer will get interrupted much more easily due to no stances/mantra of concentration.

Summary:
A --> doesn't need secondary unless you use conjures
D --> doesn't need secondary uness D/N orders
P --> needs /W for "SY!" , otherwise just ~30% reduction from TNTF
Rt --> needs secondary for hex removal
R --> doesn't need secondary but would suck (Barrage without conjures, splinter, judge's insight, etc. only peaks at about 40Damage per use vs 100Armor)
N --> needs secondary for more use besides SS spam (arcane echo for SS, AP for MoP)
Mo --> needs secondary for anything. RoJ needs arcane echo to not be on 20 cooldown; /W for PvP ; /Me or other.
Me --> doesn't need secondary ; Glyph of lesser energy helps though ; Psychic Instability bars are locked to Dom/Illusion which is bad ; FD bars are very constrained
E --> needs secondary for heroes ; /A or /Me for faster recharges
W --> doesn't need secondary unless you use conjures

MithranArkanere · Mar 23, 2011, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

So you are saying ANet should tie-in our GW1 characters losing access to secondary professions with a lore update? Brilliant!

I'm saying there's no need to make such a change in GW1, since GW2 is being made for that.

I wouldn't mind if only primaries could use elites of that profession, and if the secondary skills where limited to 3 only though.

I'd also love to see 3 extra skill slots, one at least one for elites, one for self-heal and one for a resurrection skill (this last one separate from the rest of the skill bar, as a floating button you can put anywhere on screen)

But still, to late for such changes. GW2 is for that.

Cuilan · Mar 23, 2011, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I'm saying there's no need to make such a change in GW1, since GW2 is being made for that.

That doesn't make any sense since that game isn't Guild Wars.

What needs to happen is a more aggressive balancing that should have happened ages ago, not something that'll cause mass deleting of builds. Still haven't seen any evidence that removing secondaries will create more balance. It may greatly change meta builds, but that doesn't mean the game is balanced.

MithranArkanere · Mar 23, 2011, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Removing secondaries doesn't create more balance.

It just makes balance easier, by removing most combinations of skills.

Cuilan · Mar 23, 2011, 03:24 AM // 03:24

If skills are wisely changed with consideration of secondaries, I don't see it mattering.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 23, 2011, 03:27 AM // 03:27

If anything, change the limit to how many secondary profession skills can be placed on a bar, but even this I don't know.

Swingline · Mar 23, 2011, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

If anything, change the limit to how many secondary profession skills can be placed on a bar, but even this I don't know.

this actually sounds more feasible. make it so you can have only 3 secondary/pve only skills.

**cosyfiep** · Mar 23, 2011, 03:51 AM // 03:51

no, secondaries are WHY I play this game and not some other .....being able to synergize primary and secondary skills is what makes guildwars guildwars without it --you have a wow clone (or the like)....if you get rid of them now, you kill an already slowing down game.
so an emphatic NO! (if you dont want 2ndaries wait for gw2 and go play that instead).

Lasai · Mar 23, 2011, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

TBH I have been thinking about this. With GW2 not having secondary professions it could fit into the winds of change storyline well. Maybe the elder dragons awakening changed it somehow, like locking the powers of the mortal races forever to weaken them for their arrival. Many people may hate it but it would bring balance if some skills were changed. Now lets be honest the secondary professions are what made Guild Wars... well Guild Wars, but that was when the game was new, now it's horribly imbalanced and every effort to balance the game has failed. It would definitely be a nine inch nail through the knee for SF tanks, no more SoS/DwG across all professions, no more necros abusing soul reaping to fuel skills outside their profession and no more ER prot. For heroes it means pretty much running a balanced team, you can still run all the OP elites like discord/SS/SoS but just on the professions they belong to. I can assume people would complain about ANet kicking creativity in the balls but it would just be an excuse. What it would do is awaken people to be creative with their main professions skills. If they did decide to do it I would actually welcome the challenge and this is comming from someone with custod dhuums scythe and q9 storm daggers on my warrior. Seriously though do we even need a second profession with pve skills? XD

No. This is not GW2. I have less inclination to even purchase GW2 every time they release "new" things like.. uh.. a rogue class. Secondary professions are part of what makes GW unique. Most of what drew me to GW is going to be gone in GW2. Let GW be GW, GW2 can be GW2.

I dont use my secondary class except for certain situations. Few of my heros are set up with secondaries It would change little of my gameplay, but removing a choice is bad. Less options are bad. Some of the solo quests.. like glacial griffon.. would become hidious for some professions. WIK would have to be revamped entirely to remove secondary profs from the mobs as well. Some hench would be affected. No 2nd prof means no 2nd prof.. right?

You could achieve "balance" by limiting the game to one prof and 8 skills as well. Seriously.. that is the only way you would ever see "balance".

No matter what you impose. with 10 professions and the sheer number of skill combinations it will be imbalanced in some way.

jazilla · Mar 23, 2011, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I totally appreciate all the opinions, but I want to throw a reason out there for eliminating secondaries: More viable skills for your primary profession. Think about it. Most skills get jacked because other classes are abusing them with their secondary professions.

Removing secondary professions means that skills that see little to no use can get buffed without fear of another profession using it to greater effect than that of the primary user.

I always see a huge number of threads about this or that being OP. A certain class is way underpowered here, a certain class is stomping on heads there. We always talk about balance, but now some of the same people I see that say they want balance don't want to do the very thing that could actually bring balance to the game.

As far as variety goes: I see people being creative and having fun making builds in game, and most of the time I also see people that make fun of them for it because it isn't optimal damage. The word "noob" gets thrown around in the game because of people having fun and making builds way more than I ever see, "Oh cool man, you are using 'Way of the Master' for a Spear build. Have fun!"

Even if this doesn't happen(and I know it won't ever happen) I feel that roles need to be redefined again in this game. The original damage dealer in Guild Wars is now relegated to snares and blind spam. Monks abuse stances from other professions that the main profession never uses. Skills that creative players use in PvE get changed because players in PvP find ways to make those skills unbalance the game. The whole Motivation line is rendered obsolete because of PvP in the past. Dervishes do what Rangers used to do with Barrage and Preparations. Classes need secondaries to succeed as opposed to using secondaries to enhance and I think that isn't how the game should play out.

Kaleban · Mar 23, 2011, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I always see a huge number of threads about this or that being OP. A certain class is way underpowered here, a certain class is stomping on heads there. We always talk about balance, but now some of the same people I see that say they want balance don't want to do the very thing that could actually bring balance to the game.

First thing is, you must be careful in assuming that Guru speaks for the entire GW playerbase. It doesn't, no such small sampling can ever be truly representative, it only amounts to the hardcore players' opinions really. Many more players simply accept the state of the game and get on with things, rather than constantly whine about OP-ness.

The bolded part is interesting. You're accusing some of being hypocrites because they don't agree with your flawed premise that removing veritably half the game mechanics is the singular way to balance the game! That's incredibly moronic, as there are multiple issues at stake here:

1. Even in a single class system, there would be imbalance among the classes. Take RA for example, a 4 monk team even as single monks could be incredibly hard to kill. In games like WoW with single class systems there's imbalance, and that game has been around a LONG time. So the premise that single class systems is some sort of panacea for balance is false.

2. The secondary class system, customization of characters, heroes and team builds is what differentiates GW from other stock MMOs, along with the lessened dependence on the Tank/Heal/Nuke mechanic. If you get rid of secondaries, GW becomes a no monthly fee, instanced WoW.

jazilla · Mar 23, 2011, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

First thing is, you must be careful in assuming that Guru speaks for the entire GW playerbase. It doesn't, no such small sampling can ever be truly representative, it only amounts to the hardcore players' opinions really. Many more players simply accept the state of the game and get on with things, rather than constantly whine about OP-ness.

Just so you know, like it said in my original post, I only play RA now. I am talking about players in RA. People there almost all call people noob whether or not they deserve it. Creativity(as some people talk about here, and I agree with the people here as it pertains to creativity) is frowned upon in RA. I have been called all manner of names because quite frankly, I go to RA to have fun now. My fame grinding days are behind me. The creativity that would be lost to not having secondaries in here is shunned in RA. Monks ABUSE Bonetti's and countless other Warrior stances that warriors NEVER use. The creativity spoken of in here dos not exist in PvP really. PvP is distilled down to a few tried and tested builds and then there are teams that are the cream of the crop in GvG that can afford to be creative because they all know how to play the game and have played together for years. These people would do just fine if secondaries were lost.

So to answer your question: I am not calling people in here hypocrites. I am calling people in the RA lobby hypocrites for syncing, and shunning creativity so that people fall in the same rote, boring, routine of running the same thing over and over to raise a number counter for a rank.

thedeadlyassassin · Mar 23, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07

No. The whole reason for secondary professions is to make the character personal, so you can customize it how you want. If you had only one profession, Rangers would be limited to bows, Sins would be limited to Daggers, warriors would be limited to using hammer, axe or sword, and so on.

I would like the arena for only primary professions, but to piss off everyone that finally got the updates they were waiting for would ruin this game. I don't see a need to completely change Guild Wars 1, a game a lot of people still enjoy, when GW2 is so close and doesn't offer secondary professions. I understand people are veteran and prefer balanced gameplay rather than roflpwning with one class, but they're going to want quantity out of quality so they get people playing GW2 at this point.

ensoriki · Mar 23, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

You can't globally remove secondaries, but I would love to see an area of play where Secondaries no longer exist, Bring back Team Arena's and bring it back without secondaries, I'm down for that.

Quote:

1. Even in a single class system, there would be imbalance among the classes. Take RA for example, a 4 monk team even as single monks could be incredibly hard to kill. In games like WoW with single class systems there's imbalance, and that game has been around a LONG time. So the premise that single class systems is some sort of panacea for balance is false.

How much Energy-management does Monk primary have? Not much.
I don't see 4 monks being nearly as nonsensical as they are in RA.

Secondaries help fill in the wholes in your profession, when those wholes cannot be filled to the same extent, you have more areas for an enemy to exploit. For Monks this can be their energy management. Though I still see issues with it, I think it could be more interested then Codex.

reaper with no name · Mar 24, 2011, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Paragons, Rangers, and Elementalists currently rely on secondary professions just to validate their existence in PvE. I cannot in good faith support this suggestion.

/notsigned

jazilla · Mar 24, 2011, 01:01 PM // 13:01

So if the game is unbalance-able with a primary/secondary profession, and we keep it that way does that mean we need to just keep our pie holes shut from now on about changing this or that?

Does skill tweaking even matter?

I guess the only real solution at this point is for the devs to give us skill updates every month or two to mix up how we play and what classes are the "flavor of the month".

Can we at least get that ANet?

reaper with no name · Mar 24, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Constant updates do not induce balance. They just give the players who know the game better and can adapt more quickly a leg up on the ones who don't (at least for a few days until the meta catches up).

Also, what you're suggesting is exactly what they used to give us. It is what led us to the current update paradigm, because instead of targeted updates designed to make certain options more viable and certain other options less so, we ended up with poorly thought out dartboard buffs and nerfs that led to unforeseen imbalances.

Finally, even if that could work, Anet would be either unwilling or unable to produce skill updates that rapidly.

Why? · Mar 24, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

You are asking the devs to completely rewrite the game. Change every single skill bar on every single monster.

Um, that ain't happening.

Recognize the age of GW1. A game this old will not be perfect. For what it is, it is really awesome. To get any updates at all is really cool.

jazilla · Mar 24, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Constant updates do not induce balance. They just give the players who know the game better and can adapt more quickly a leg up on the ones who don't (at least for a few days until the meta catches up)..

I didn't mean that constant updates would bring balance. I meant it would bring variety, hence the "flavor of the month" comment. At least we get varied game play with that as opposed to stale game play. I also said that I knew this wouldn't happen(them getting rid of secondaries) but it would be easier to balance the game if they did. Most players I see on these forums want balance. I was trying to offer a suggestion that would point us toward more balance in the game.

I agree with you on the experienced player point though. I guess that is why I don't really play anymore because of lack of content or skill changes. The derv stuff has been a lot of fun. I guess ANet just isn't willing to pour more resources into this game even though they have said in interviews that the player base is still strong in terms of numbers and one of their head honchos told RAvious of the KillTenRAts blog, that, "that players don't realize how much money the microtransactions have actually brought them." So it isn't for lack of funds or players. They just aren't concerned with keeping Skill updates always fresh.