Curse

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 22, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Request: The original post is subject to change as ideas and criticisms are brought to my attention. i do not claim to be the authority on truth and I know many of you are incredibly wise. I would greatly appreciate any refutations or suggestions. Please rip this thread apart. Be brutally honest and speak with an open mind. If I'm really stupid, tell me. I encourage you to make fun of me because there's nothing wrong with having a few laughs at my expense.... but add substance too.

Note: I wrote this assuming the nerfs released earlier last week that will be occurring in the next balance by A-Net

Introduction

So I have been playing Guild Wars off and on (mostly on) for over 5 years. I can honestly say that the state of the game right now is the most imbalanced it has ever been in that time (excluding the time immediately after the release of a new campaign). I believe this is mostly due to attrition and the desire to appease PvE oriented players. I believe this ideology change occurred around the time of EoTN release. However, this is a topic for another time and place.

Philosophy

I mostly just wanted to talk about skill balances and what it would take to fix the issues we are seeing in GvG and all of PvP today. So the prudent question becomes, what makes PvP fun? My answer to that question, and presumably most of you as well, is the requirement of a firm reliance on strategy and skill, before and during a match, in order to win. This is accomplished by having a multitude of team builds and strategies being viable in any given meta. Let's look at how to approach this from a macro perspective.

As of right now, and the recent past, A-Net has balanced the game through the buffing of outdated and unused skills and then the nerfing of individualized builds that were unhealthy for the game. This mentality does not accomplish our overarching goal for fun PvP. I propose that A-Net's mentality needs to shift from individuals, to the collective.

So far I have been very vague and broad in focus. I wanted to establish a frame of reference for the remainder of this post. So with that in mind, I would like to focus my scope on individual skills that I believe will ultimately lead us to achieving these broad goals.

Shutdown

The first thing that needs to be brought back to the forefront of GvG is shutdown. Shutdown has been all but eliminated from the meta game. If we are to use A-Net's current model for skill balancing, that would mean buffing some Mesmer shutdown skills or Ranger interrupts to incentivise this play style. As I have already stated, this is ineffective and simply leads to more imbalance. In order to increase incentive to bring shutdown on your team, you need to increase incentive to bring skills that the other team would want to shut down. Here's what I mean.

EDIT: Everything in Bold has been changed 3/28/10

Aegis - Functionality change to: For 1...10...11 seconds, all nearby party members have a 10% chance to block attacks for every 3 attributes you have in divine favor

Ward Against Melee - Functionality change to: Ward Spell. You create a Ward Against Melee at your current location. For 5...20...30 seconds, non-spirit allies in this area have a 10% chance to block melee attacks for every 3 attributes you have in Energy Storage.

Mirror of Disenchantment - increase casting time to 2 seconds

By adding some passive defensive skills, you are increasing incentive to bring shutdown that can break the opposing team's defenses, exposing them to your front line. Obviously, mirror of disenchantment will become much more powerful when Aegis is a party-wide enchantment. To keep Mirror on Mesmers, I increased the cast time.

Monking

If we are increasing the strength of some passive defense skills, we must balance this by decreasing the strength of some active defense skills.

Patient Spirit - reduce heal by 15 hp.

Balanced Stance - for 12 seconds, the next 0... 1 (3 tactics)..2 (9 tactics)..3(14 tactics) times you would be knocked down, it fails and this stance ends. Reduce recharge to 20 seconds.

Healing Burst - reduce base heal to 120 hp with 14 healing prayers

Word of Healing - reduce primary and secondary heal by 15 hp

By reducing the power of heal monks, I hope to not only balance defense but also increase incentive to bring red bar push on the typical RC (gift of health) and thus eliminate some bar compression on that character. I wanted to tone down balanced stance because I understand the role that A-Nets want dervishes to play and under the current meta game, they simply outclass warriors in almost every way. By reducing the strength of balanced stance on monks, warriors instantly become more powerful as they specialize in KDs. Monks can still use it to keep from being KDed on a spike however KDs become much more powerful as a tool to pressure monks... which should be encouraged.

Offense

As of the most recent update, dervishes are ridiculously imbalanced. I don't think the update was bad though. I think a dervishes ability to apply cracked armor grants a lot of potential for it, once balanced, to be implemented in tandem with warriors (body blow) very effectively. I understand that A-Net is attempting to address the power of dervishes in the next balance however I don't believe they went far enough. Every time a melee class has been able to maintain an IAS and an IMS simultaneously, it has been imbalanced.

Heart of Fury - Flash Enchantment: While this enchantment is active, speed boosts have no effect. 10 second duration, 20 second recharge

I know this is possible in the game mechanics because it is essentially the same effect as Muddy Terrain. Warriors can be taken out of their IAS by putting damage on them (linebacking > Frenzy) or by anti-KD and kiting (Aura of Stability > Flail). The reason why I want to make it a flash enchantment is because then it can be removed like warrior's IAS. With 20% longer enchant mod, this IAS becomes very effective yet able to be shutdown with standard enchant strip.

Splitting

The best way to encourage splits is to make teams choose a maximum of two of the various functions on their flag runner: party heals, snare, damage, and active healing. As of right now I think flag runners are actually pretty balanced with exception to one skill.

Resilient Weapon - reduce armor bonus to +10

As of right now, this weapon spell allows a Ritualist to defend a base too well against a single ganker. This may need to be nerfed even further as i am incapable of testing.

Conclusion

I am fully aware that this balance is incomplete and will not solve all of our problems. I can already think of a possible flaw i.e. hexes becoming overpowered. I've never ran hex builds in GvG since I've always considered them to be degenerate to player skill (they make you stupid) so I'm not sure if the healing nerfs will make these builds superpowered. I'd definitely be open to suggestions regarding this topic.

Basically what I wanted to accomplish with this thread is to broaden the horizons of people on this forum to a new way of thinking. I wanted to widen the scope of how we look at skill balances and hopefully help some of you understand the implications of a skill balance. Now it's your turn. I look forward to being owned by all of you and hopefully I can learn something along the way.

Nekodesu · Mar 22, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I find the whole monking thing incredibly stupid. If you make balance stance such a useless skill, dual warrior such as a hammer + w/e else or another hammer war could just insta kill the monk. The monk will be completely shut down, and have no way to defend itself because all its skills would be rupted because of the KD... Just imagen against an assa then....

I find that the dumbest thing, even thought I understand where you're comming from. But making monks shitty isn't the way to go...

S4br3t00th · Mar 22, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

have you even carefully read patient spirit's description? Sorry but you don't really seem to know what you're talking about...

Skyy High · Mar 22, 2011, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

So I have been playing Guild Wars off and on (mostly on) for over 5 years. I can honestly say that the state of the game right now is the most imbalanced it has ever been in that time (excluding the time immediately after the release of a new campaign).

Hexway / Spiritway in GvG says hi. That lasted for about a year before it was nerfed.

Oh, and your first suggestion is to bring back mass amounts of passive defense that ANet spent a few balance updates taking out because it was ruining GvG? Yeah....no. There are too many potentially good passive defense skills in the game at this point; if even a few of them are buffed, they'll all be stacked together, and we'll be back to impenetrable defense nets of lame. Prophecies had one ward and Aegis, and that was it. We're a bit beyond that now, unfortunately, and there's no going back.

Zodiac Meteor · Mar 22, 2011, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Old news dude.

Your suggestions, well, suck. Making monks weaker isn't going to solve anything.
I'm pretty sure the next thing on ArenaNet to do list is fixing dervish skills for PvP.
+1 before close.

*lemming* · Mar 22, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Fix the flag and everything will be good again. Unfortunately, the collective imaginations of just about everyone with a brain who GvGs hasn't come up with a single good idea yet.

Also, Patient already doesn't heal when pulled prematurely.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 22, 2011, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekodesu

I find the whole monking thing incredibly stupid. If you make balance stance such a useless skill, dual warrior such as a hammer + w/e else or another hammer war could just insta kill the monk.

That's assuming you have zero blind, zero ward against melee, zero aegis, zero pre-protting, zero dark escape, etc, etc, etc. You know monks did exist before they starting bringing balanced stance right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekodesu

I find that the dumbest thing, even thought I understand where you're coming from. But making monks shitty isn't the way to go...

I didn't make monks shitty. I buffed Aegis really hard and barely nerfed their healing potential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemming

Fix the flag and everything will be good again. Unfortunately, the collective imaginations of just about everyone with a brain who GvGs hasn't come up with a single good idea yet.

Also, Patient already doesn't heal when pulled prematurely.

Thank you for at least offering a suggestion, as vague as it is, because at least that is something I can use. Unfortunately, I hardly believe that fixing the flag (what does that mean?) will solve all the problems. Balance problems have existed since factions and progressively gotten worse for every expansion after that. So, other than the flag, you think GvG is perfect in its current form? I know this is not the case but you said it, not me.

Fixed patient. Been mulling vague ideas over for a few days and decided to make this post between classes so I'm actually going to be editting more too. I also wanted to mention that how I described Ward Against Melee is retardedly overpowered... but nobody seemed to have caught that so... I guess i caught it myself.

jazilla · Mar 22, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I wish there were actual maps where the party was split and couldn't rejoin each other and then once and if the timer got to a certain point you would rejoin each other for a match in a dome of death. If you didn't complete the objectives in say, 7 minutes, both teams just had to kill each other. It would add a cool layer to the game.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 22, 2011, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Hexway / Spiritway in GvG says hi. That lasted for about a year before it was nerfed.

Oh, and your first suggestion is to bring back mass amounts of passive defense that ANet spent a few balance updates taking out because it was ruining GvG? Yeah....no. There are too many potentially good passive defense skills in the game at this point; if even a few of them are buffed, they'll all be stacked together, and we'll be back to impenetrable defense nets of lame. Prophecies had one ward and Aegis, and that was it. We're a bit beyond that now, unfortunately, and there's no going back.

What are you talking about Hexway / Spiritway says hi? That sure is helpful. Also, I am not bringing back massive amounts of passive defense. I am bringing back 2 skills.... 2. Yes A-Net spent a few balance updates taking out ALL passive defense because they BELIEVED it was ruining GvG but THEY WERE WRONG! Ever since they took it out, GvG has withered away at an accelerated rate and is now in critical condition / death. You say there are already many potentially good passive defense skills in the game but you failed to mention even one. This is not what I consider to be substantive criticism.

Remember when midline used to be the most difficult position in Guild Wars to play? That has changed to monk. The reason is because midline is no longer used for shutdown at all and monk is soly responsible for keeping the party alive. Having skilled monks has always been important but now they are paramount to success. One mistake on monk can result in catastrophic failure of the entire team. A little passive defense corrects this. Why has GvG died? Because the learning curve is far too steep at key positions. That is just a fact.

^^ This is called a substantive reply. None of the replies by others thus far would i consider to be substantive. Just rash generalizations and strawman arguments.

"making monks bad won't solve anything!"... I didn't make them worse, just different and easier to play... because Aegis is good... and monks will actually have defensive midliners to help them.

I believe you all are very intelligent. Why don't you show me by forming actual arguments rather than just espousing baseless assertions and logical fallacies?

*lemming* · Mar 22, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

I hardly believe that fixing the flag will solve all the problems. Balance problems have existed since factions and progressively gotten worse for every expansion after that. I honestly can't believe you would even say something so utterly absurd.

There's two problems wrong with GvG right now:

1. (almost) All your party healing is on your flagrunner.
2. Whoever is holding the flag when it needs to be capped is effectively a nonentity, meaning you're fighting 7v8.

The two combine to make the flag the most important thing in a match. Ponder it for a bit.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 22, 2011, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

There's two problems wrong with GvG right now:

1. (almost) All your party healing is on your flagrunner.
2. Whoever is holding the flag when it needs to be capped is effectively a nonentity, meaning you're fighting 7v8.

The two combine to make the flag the most important thing in a match. Ponder it for a bit.

1. It doesn't need to be, but it's the best place to put it because you don't need to be in casting range to use it. I see no problem here.
2. Both teams are required to run flags... which makes it 7v7 by this logic. Again, I see no problem here.

Also, you still seem to be suggesting that GvG is perfect in its current state other than the flags... which it isn't by a long shot.

emuking · Mar 23, 2011, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Hi there people long time; I randomly decided to post here on guru cuz idk im bored and killing time and regrettably know more about GW than i am socially proud of so i might as well contribute...

anyway to lemming can you move this to the pvp glad section? The last thing we need are pvers making pvp contributions that are overdebated and generally unconstructive towards a better MMORPG teambased competitive pvp experience.

to the OP im not entirely sure what you are trying to achieve by changing skills because GvG is the most complicated PvP format in guild wars; just allow more viable builds in the meta? The root of GvGs stagnant meta has to do with the entire format of it and the goals towards victory (Get ahead on flags and push theirs more but dont let anyone die and then contain, kill guild lord and if it somehow goes to 28 you are in a better position to win it + you should have less DP if not 10% cuz of flags)

That is the safest and most euro-reliable way to win because current skills and O shit stances allow that kind of strategy to be viable and also have been tested thoroughly

^ this is the problem why builds are so damn similar, because they all basically have this goal in mind.

Fixing skills isnt going to change how to play strategically teamwise because GvG has been balanced around 3 monk backline for so long its not even funny. I would love to see a GvG mAT final in which 1 team might have 3 monks and the other has 1 monk but you know what? that team with 1 monk cant make a single goddamn mistake or the 3 monk team can capitalize and they will never let up. In some cases the 1 monk team cant even beat the 3 monk team at all.

The amount of skill vs the amount of risks you take with your build is a huge problem in GvG.

What i mean by this is a team that wins the gw guru cup with 7 offense and 1backline (common structure of a BYOB, which is fun as shit if every1 is good) should be considered biblical legends because it takes extreme coordination and skill to win like that at the highest level as opposed to 5 offense and 3 defense because how pussy it is. You can always engauge 8v8 usually with the common 3 monk setup because you can always recover theoretically. You do that 1 time with BYOB and someone is gonna freaking die and then you snowball. Mistakes are so easily forgivable in GvG it almost pisses me off but that does allow a lot more tug-of-war style combat which is what makes GvG quite possibly the most unique form of pvp.

So before i continue my rant i need to know what you truly want from "more viable builds" Do you want more viable 5 offensive and 3 defense builds in GvG? or do you really want viability and do you want 1, 3 and even the fabled 2 monk backlines possible at high level? (with respect to offense)

Because my contributions to this discussion are very reliant on the answer to that question. One leads to skills balances and the other leads to changing the GvG format/structure, powercreep and more theories. Im the god damn Emu King bitch!

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 23, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by emuking

So before i continue my rant i need to know what you truly want from "more viable builds" Do you want more viable 5 offensive and 3 defense builds in GvG? or do you really want viability and do you want 1, 3 and even the fabled 2 monk backlines possible at high level? (with respect to offense)

Because my contributions to this discussion are very reliant on the answer to that question. One leads to skills balances and the other leads to changing the GvG format/structure, powercreep and more theories.

Awesome post by the way. The answer to your question is actually quite tricky. What exactly do you mean by 5 offense and 3 defense builds? Is a B-surge elementalist an offensive build? What I want is GvG to be fun again. What is fun? When there are a multitude of strategies being used by various builds. The standard 2 warrior, 1 ranger, 1 mesmer, 1 ele, 2 monks, 1 flagger could do many different things well. This is why it was traditionally called "balanced". I absolutely want BYOB to be viable. Some of the most fun I have ever had in GvG is while playing (and winning) using BYOB with one monk.

Honestly, at the same time, I have no real issue with the three monk backline because there are a lot of different play styles you can make viable using the standard two monks and rit flagger. [dR] balance is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. That was a dedicated split and collapse build that was very fun to play.

You are absolutely correct about the structure of GvG and I was actually debating with myself whether or not I wanted to add to the OP that VoD should be restored. It's been so long that I can't even remember why it was taken out. I think it was due to defense webs and just holding until VoD before you actually are able to spike people out. Anyways, it was still a far superior game mechanic than what we have now so I don't see how it could hurt.

The overarching goal of this thread was intended to get people to think outside of the box and come up with ways to make GvG accessible to newer players as well as make it more fun for everybody. Afterall, waiting 30 minutes in town for a GvG isn't fun for anyone. Unfortunately for most, it has simply been a place for them to arbitrarily shoot down ideas without giving them a second thought.

emuking · Mar 23, 2011, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

What exactly do you mean by 5 offense and 3 defense builds? Is a B-surge elementalist an offensive build? What I want is GvG to be fun again. What is fun? When there are a multitude of strategies being used by various builds. The standard 2 warrior, 1 ranger, 1 mesmer, 1 ele, 2 monks, 1 flagger could do many different things well.

By "build" i mean teamwise. All "serious" GvG has some 5 guys (Ex: 2 wars, 1 r, 1 me, 1 ele) and the standard 3 "monk" backline. This setup of damg dealers (that would include that Bsurge) and defense (talking straight red barring/protting/weapon spells/pots) has a very specific response to everything the opposing enemy can do and it basically can handle it pretty well because in GvG its all about "trades." If 1 monk is somehow capable of holding off 3 damg dealers in a base thats a 7v5 situation on the other end of the field and you better be making some freaking progress over there faster than the 3 in your base are.

With less monks you can't always respond to splits by sending healing back; what you have to do is kill their split before they kill any NPCs; (Ex: they split a war, you send an invoke w/ bflash back).

What happened to me one game was a sin kept splitting into our base and kill an NPC but then i would kill him because i was the response as opposed to a flagger and he would res and repeat until the retard got 60ed. Sure he accomplished a lot (In total it was an archer in a knight actually), but now it was 7v8 and he wasn't gonna get ressed in our base w/o a severe penalty and we basically won it from there because you should always be winning a fight if you are outnumbering the opponent.

This is way riskier than sending a healer back because what if i didnt catch him and he got away with a free kill? This is experience and tactical position come into play because i knew exactly once he went a certain distance backdoor (isle of solitude) i was gonna be in a position to kill him once he commits.

Anything less than 3 monks basically puts you in a fight no flight situation. Once you are in a position you can't really switch without taking too much damage so you really got to know what you are doing before those gates open. 3 monks allows people to run around so much it employs different tactics as opposed to BYOB because you just can't respond with redbar if they split; you need damage responses or you just base race if you are in a good position already. Fun is subjective. Sticking it in the butt is fun.

I hope that explains what i mean by 5-3 GvG builds. 7-1 is generally anything byob (and not competitive because of its risky nature) and 6-2 is uncharted territory for almost everyone. 8-0 is retarded

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 23, 2011, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Honestly, being a player from Prophecies GvG, the biggest issue is damage. Who needs to shut anything down when you can 3,2,1 wtfexplode every target with massive overkill. Follow me for a second here.

The new skills they added each expansion were too strong. Shutdown started taking a backseat because it's only useful relative to the damage that can be done. Why do I need to EBurn a Monk's energy when I can run up, hit 2 skills (that recharge in 5 seconds) on a random target and do 200 damage? More damage started making itself present on teams in place of Shutdown. To compensate for this damage, more monks were needed, an example being the Party-Heals Flagrunner to mop up the random 200 damage being done here and there.

Then they buffed Healing and Passive Defense. Oops. This resulted in 14 players bringing tents to camp the Flag and 2 bringing running shoes to marathon flags. This was extremely boring, so they killed Passive Defense and focused on upping Healing to fight the damage instead. Now we are here, where your Monks screw up once, a target explodes into a fine bloody mist, and your team is forced to resign because you just lost your entire base's defense in 1 resurrection.

There's plenty of evidence to prove it:
- Flagrunners (E/Mo Ether Prodigy) used to have Heal Party for a party heal, Healing Breeze for a self-heal, and Mending Touch to take care of conditions. The rest were snares or supports. Now the entire Flagrunner's bar is dedicated to combating the ridiculous damage of today's Meta.

- I recall telling the team to WAND the enemy for more damage some spikes were so close. WAND DAMAGE was important.

- You used to be able to have a WoH get DShotted or RC Diverted and not have to hug the Guild Lord. Good luck with that now.

- Balanced stance wasn't necessary before because you couldn't burn down 3 players while the Monk was KD'ed. Knockdowns happened, it stressed the other Monk's energy for a bit (or caused them to lose a skill from Diversion), and then the other Monk got up. You get knocked down now and you stand a good change of having a team member die.

- Falling back into the base might've resulted in losing 2 archers before. You can usually count on losing an entire side now.

In general, the game has moved from slowly overcoming the other team through smart/skilled gameplay to trying to spike more targets faster than the other team. Tone the damage down, tone the healing down. Slow the game down so one mistake doesn't trash the efforts of the entire round.

LifeInfusion · Mar 23, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Heals and damage got super-powercreep in Factions.

If you note, in prophecies Mo/Me was popular with Boon prot. Now Mo/W is meta and we also have a fully defensive flag runner, rather than spike support E/Mo with Mind blast or Ether prodigy+ blinding flash + Heal party.

Look at mesmers. They are now damage powerhouses, rather than shutdown.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 23, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by emuking

I hope that explains what i mean by 5-3 GvG builds. 7-1 is generally anything byob (and not competitive because of its risky nature) and 6-2 is uncharted territory for almost everyone. 8-0 is retarded

Is a Shield or Regen E/Mo considered a healer? What about the old E-prod runner? I mean... runner's have always had party heals because they are so easy to use when away from the team but does that make them a full blown monk? If so, why is a ritualist with Caretaker's not considered a damage dealer? They do the same amount of damage as a B-surge elementalist. The point is flaggers are used for basically 4 purposes... which I listed in the OP. The trick is to figure out what the build needs and use that on your runner. Party healing is usually a great choice for runners... for obvious reasons. many times people will bring damage, snares, or extra healing for base defense. The problem with runners is when they can do ALL OF THESE at the same time. A healthy meta is when a team is limited to two of the four options.

A lot of what was in your last post I already knew and it wasn't that helpful. I mean, how does it apply to skill balances? Sometimes I just want to say, "Where is the chase... and how do I cut to it.?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

The new skills they added each expansion were too strong. Shutdown started taking a backseat because it's only useful relative to the damage that can be done.

Not quite. If defense is able to mitigate a lot of that damage relatively easily, shutdown is also useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Why do I need to EBurn a Monk's energy when I can run up, hit 2 skills (that recharge in 5 seconds) on a random target and do 200 damage?

Again, this is assuming that defensive characters are completely incapable to of mitigating this damage potential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

To compensate for this damage, more monks were needed, an example being the Party-Heals Flagrunner to mop up the random 200 damage being done here and there.

People ran party heals on E/Mo flaggers well before factions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Then they buffed Healing and Passive Defense. Oops. This resulted in 14 players bringing tents to camp the Flag and 2 bringing running shoes to marathon flags. This was extremely boring, so they killed Passive Defense and focused on upping Healing to fight the damage instead.

Not quite. A-Net came out with these things called Paragons that could put out a ton of passive defense. Before paragons, there was no real issue with passive defense. A little passive defense is very good for the game. Too much and you get defense webs like you said. Too little and you get what we have today. There is a happy medium and that is what I was trying to do in the OP. They call it skill "balance" for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Now we are here, where your Monks screw up once, a target explodes into a fine bloody mist, and your team is forced to resign because you just lost your entire base's defense in 1 resurrection.

There's plenty of evidence to prove it:
- Flagrunners (E/Mo Ether Prodigy) used to have Heal Party for a party heal, Healing Breeze for a self-heal, and Mending Touch to take care of conditions. The rest were snares or supports. Now the entire Flagrunner's bar is dedicated to combating the ridiculous damage of today's Meta.

Correlation does not imply causation. Runners today don't have snares or damage like runners of old. Why? Because ritualist party heals are more powerful than monk party heals. So if you bring a ritualist flag runner, are they better suited to snare and deal damage or to support heal? If heal party was buffed up to the level of ritualist party healing (or rit party heals were nerfed down) you would see more E/Mo runners that snared and dealt damage.

In the remainder of your post you talked about how damage increased significantly which is true. The problem with your argument is that you don't take into consideration insignias, which were never possible pre-nightfall (I believe). Insignias do a great job mitigating damage. If there was a little passive defense available to monks and midline support, you would see a huge shift from the spiky bull crap today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Heals and damage got super-powercreep in Factions.

If you note, in prophecies Mo/Me was popular with Boon prot. Now Mo/W is meta and we also have a fully defensive flag runner, rather than spike support E/Mo with Mind blast or Ether prodigy+ blinding flash + Heal party.

Look at mesmers. They are now damage powerhouses, rather than shutdown.

Yes heals and damage got super-powercreep in Factions (and in nightfall and in EoTN) but that's not why we have fully defensive flag runners or why we have mesmers that aren't shutdown. The reason why we have defensive flag runners is because Ritualists are the best profession for party healing and they specialize more in active heals than in damage or snares.

The reason why mesmers no longer run shutdown is because there is literally NOTHING to shut down. What's a mesmer going to do in this meta? Camp a necromancer all game? If a build serves no purpose, then you shouldn't bring it. In the current meta, shutdown serves no purpose, so it is not being brought. I am attempting to correct that.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 23, 2011, 10:08 PM // 22:08

There is plenty to shut down, there is just no point in doing it. Burning down a Monk's Energy used to be nice because they didn't used to have these ridiculous levels of healing. Five energy goes a lot farther now then it used to, meaning they get more out of less energy.

Shatter Enchantment used to be important because spiking took effort and build-up time. Now you just 3,2,1 spike another target when you see the giant Buddha-thingy pop over top someone's head.

Diversion would still be nice, but has since been invalidated due to Magebane, DShot, SShot rangers camping the crap outta the Mesmers. Aegis (Defensive Anthem) and Wards were really the only other things the Ranger had to worry about. These provided so much defense it stalemated things, proving that blanket defense was a bad thing. Paragons had Defensive Anthem, Energizing Finale, and Mending Refrain. Two of these have been nerfed. The paragon is screwed as far as defense goes, so they won't be coming back (this is a good thing).

The game just needs to be slowed down. Damage and Healing are too high. Degen pressure really doesn't even exist anymore because it's so inferior. It's now a side effect of skills like Aura of Thorns. Without WTFDamage, you don't need defense webs. Mesmers will come back because Monks are going to lose efficiency. Spikes won't be able to happen every 5 seconds, making Shutdown even more necessary. Mistakes will add up until one side starts losing. It's the way it used to be in Prophesies when GvGing was a freakin' blast.

Also, I know that Party Heals were run on (E/Mo) flaggers before Factions, it wasn't until the super damage creep that the whole bar started becoming dedicated to it out of necessity.

Besides, adding Aegis and Ward back into the game isn't going to help the fact that Monk's are still the biggest and most nerve-wrecking class to play because the entire match relies on them. Some pressure needs to be taken off of them and placed onto the midline, which is basically entirely offensive now. BSurge? Water Snares? All gone. The game is currently 5 offensive classes beating on 3 healers. The "midliner" role by standard definition doesn't currently exist, and this is one of the biggest issues.

Edit: Might have to eat my own words. Saw a Water snare and Dom Mesmer today.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 24, 2011, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

There is plenty to shut down, there is just no point in doing it. Burning down a Monk's Energy used to be nice because they didn't used to have these ridiculous levels of healing. Five energy goes a lot farther now then it used to, meaning they get more out of less energy.

Is this in response to the OP... because I'm pretty sure that's reducing the power of monk healing is EXACTLY what I tried to fix. You say there is plenty to shut down but no point in doing it. That is a contradiction as far as I am concerned. When I say there is nothing to shut down, that means there is nothing that anyone considers NEEDING of shut down. I am attempting to correct this. If you think I am doing a poor job, please by all means make a suggestion. That's what the thread is for. If it is a good suggestion, I will add it to the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Shatter Enchantment used to be important because spiking took effort and build-up time. Now you just 3,2,1 spike another target when you see the giant Buddha-thingy pop over top someone's head.

Adding Aegis and Ward Against Melee will increase the amount of time it takes to build-up a spike. That is its entire purpose. Why do you think I want them buffed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Diversion would still be nice, but has since been invalidated due to Magebane, DShot, SShot rangers camping the crap outta the Mesmers. Aegis (Defensive Anthem) and Wards were really the only other things the Ranger had to worry about.

I am definitely not suggesting bringing back DA but Aegis would decrease the ability for a ranger to camp a mesmer, both because it wont hit through the 50% block half the time and because it will be responsible for shutting that down as well. This is another reason why Aegis is important to have back in the meta game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

These provided so much defense it stalemated things, proving that blanket defense was a bad thing. Paragons had Defensive Anthem, Energizing Finale, and Mending Refrain. Two of these have been nerfed. The paragon is screwed as far as defense goes, so they won't be coming back (this is a good thing).

Agreed although I believe "Go For The Eyes!" Should be un-nerfed because scythes no longer have the massive crit like they used to and it would make Paragons much more viable as damage support characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

The game just needs to be slowed down. Damage and Healing are too high. Degen pressure really doesn't even exist anymore because it's so inferior.

You are correct about the speed of the game. It is too high. Supplemental passive defense should, in theory, correct this. I will probably refer to passive defense as "supplemental" from now on to demonstrate that is should be passive defense light compared to the defense webs of the past. Unfortunately, you are wrong about degen pressure. Hexway is extremely powerful and the Barbs Necromancer and poison spread Ranger are used almost exclusively for degen pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Also, I know that Party Heals were run on (E/Mo) flaggers before Factions, it wasn't until the super damage creep that the whole bar started becoming dedicated to it out of necessity.

I really don't know what you are talking about. The E-Prod Runner had an elite skill dedicated to feeding his party heals. The current runner basically has an open elite slot that can be filled with anything he wants. The current dervish meta obviously is stupid damage but that's why Dervishes need to be nerfed further than A-Net did in the most recent update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Besides, adding Aegis and Ward back into the game isn't going to help the fact that Monk's are still the biggest and most nerve-wrecking class to play because the entire match relies on them.

This is a complete contradiction. Of course Aegis and Ward will make monking less nerve-wracking. That's what all forms of passive defense does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Some pressure needs to be taken off of them and placed onto the midline, which is basically entirely offensive now. BSurge? Water Snares? All gone.

What do you think adding a powerful ward against melee that can only be used by elementalists will do? It will put more pressure on midline to maintain their monk support. It will also put more pressure on midline to try and shut those skills down. If monks on the other team aren't being tasked to keep red bars up, they will be stripping blinds and snares instead which allows for more damage on your team. Shutdown works both ways... which is why it is so vital to restore it to GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

The game is currently 5 offensive classes beating on 3 healers. The "midliner" role by standard definition doesn't currently exist, and this is one of the biggest issues.

Which is exactly what I am trying to do in the OP. I mean... if you have a suggestion let me hear it. I don't really see the point in saying a bunch of stuff that everybody already knows. I understand what is wrong with GvG. I need to know how to fix it. I put forth my attempt (I seem to be the only one trying) and all I've gotten in return is a bunch of whiners

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 24, 2011, 08:51 AM // 08:51

You are proposing we keep current damage mostly the same, decrease heals a bit, and add a defense web in the form of Aegis and Ward Against Melee to compensate.

The Ranger, who is already camping the Monks (and making their life hell), just needs to hit Aegis and Ward Against Melee. Ward Against Melee has a giant visual telling you when it's going to be cast again. Aegis has a unique cast time on Monks due to the duration of the cast. Welp, now the web is down (entirely and easily possible, I ranger'ed once upon a time, during Paraway even). Lowered Heals are no longer able to keep up with WTFDamage. Game becomes "interrupt Aegis/WAM and push" again. Still probably better than what it is today, but not ideal.

What needs to happen is a large net nerf to Melee (frontline) damage, and a large net nerf to healing. Protting needs to remain active, not passive like Aegis and WAM. Balanced Stance needs a nerf. Monks NEED to be able to be shut down (Energy Denial, Diversion/Shame, Knockdown), facilitating a need for a partially defensive mid-line.

We are proposing nearly the same thing, I just don't agree with the defense web. It was never good.

Answers to your above post:
What's the point in burning a Monk's energy now when a 5 energy WoH is 1/2 a redbar and RC is nearly a full redbar? Five energy is a LOT stronger and more efficient now than it used to be. It's easier and more effective to just cleave another target's face in. At least this opens up more chances for the ranger to interrupt by having them cast more.

Spikes don't need to be built up anymore. They all consist of 5 energy skills on a stupidly short recharge.

What ever happened to calling for Guardian on the Mes for a window? Distortion? BSurge on the Ranger? Gale? So many other options. The team is supposed to work together. This generates "skill". Blanket "lolyoucanthitme" isn't helping anything. I don't think spamming 3 interrupts without energy worries was ever something that a Ranger was supposed to be able to do. Two should be the limit. The Ranger should need to bring something to help with spikes or otherwise provide offensive pressure (like Burning Arrow). They don't need to do that now because Melee damage is so high.

Degen pressure is gone. The Blood Necro that was just booted was the last of that, and I wouldn't even call that old-school degeneration. That was 3 Dervishes beat on things while the Necro and Ranger cause poison and bleeding. Old Degen was half your team's bars being purple and the other half green, with a light red here and here. Then depending which side of it your on, you're either giggling like a schoolgirl or screaming your head off for the Ranger to interrupt something (they are, but it doesn't matter!). I honestly have no idea how to fix Hexes (and Hexways). They are either too strong or useless.

The E-Prod Runner has E-Prod to fuel Heal Party, yes. They also had Blinding Surge, Healing Breeze Spam, Lightning Orb, and sometimes even Deep Freeze. Heal party wasn't they only thing they were fueling. The current runner is heals. Period. I don't even recall the last snare I saw on one.

Putting Aegis on the Monks isn't going to lessen the intensity of their job. It's going to become a heavy sigh every time it's interrupted because they know for 10-20 seconds somewhere, they are gonna have to fight against op damage with nerfed heals. The midline needs to be helping with snares, blind, kd, etc., not just blanket block trash. The midline needs to be ACTIVELY helping; this is both easier to balance and more fun to play. Otherwise you run into Aegis (blocking) up = can't do anything, Aegis (blocking) down = kill stuff, kind of game.

I put my suggestion a bit further up in this post. Essentially, we need to jump back to the Prophesies GvG template that everyone adored so much. Slow the game down, keep the game active and not reactive (or passive). Not trying to whine, we are both suggesting the same thing, mine just lacks the defense webs.