Curse

Jeydra · Apr 17, 2011, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I wasn't going to post, but this really caught my eye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Mercenary heroes don't affect me at all, I don't really PvE, and when I do I am usually soloing. I have also mentioned previously that the only thing I have purchased in the store is the bonus mission pack.

Get this: I don't really PvE, but I'm going to comment anyway.

And lol, keep asking for proof when I've given you two screenshots. Where is your counter-proof? Where is your screenshot showing that these times can be matched without mercenaries? Or are you just going to keep talking?

So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa.

LexTalionis · Apr 17, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Two screenshots is not equal to proof.

Screenshots are evidence. You use evidence to support a hypothesis, which you then use as a basis for your theory. The nature of evidence can be debated, as has been done in this thread - where other people have used the evidence you presented to demonstrate an alternative hypothesis, which you have not conclusively refuted.

I'm neutral in this debate, as I couldn't really care less about the topic, but your attacks on logic in this thread offend my sensibilities. For example:

Quote:

So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa.

Your argument is this:
1)Many people that favour PvP look down on people that favour PvE (unsubstantiated fact)
2)When these people discuss PvE, they present risible opinions (unsubstantiated opinion)
3)Conclusion - Therefore, all people that favour PvP have no valid opinions about PvE and therefore should not present any. (Logical plummet off a cliff)

Is liking PvE and PvP even mutually exclusive?

Please tell me why I should take you seriously if this is representative of a valid logical argument from you. My theory is:

1) Your argument above is untenable as it relies on too many inappropriate logical fallacies (ad hominem, poisoning the well, ad hoc to name just three. I could go on, but this isn't the right place).
2) Either you believe your argument valid, in which case your grasp of logic is slightly flawed, or you are arguing entirely based on rhetoric as opposed to logic.

My opinion in #2 is the latter. As I don't value rhetoric very highly, I shall not value your opinion.

Ghull Ka · Apr 17, 2011, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

limiting and restricting otherwise fully functional and properly operating mechanics just cuz is kinda lame

so......./notsigned

^This. It's like I said on the first page. Something the devs consider perfectly fine and fair bums y'all out, so you want to ruin it for people who aren't breaking any rules. Nobody's beating you in GvG's because of their merc heroes. Nobody's sneaking into your instances with their merc heroes and killing your mobs.

Next up: I've purchased extra storage panes from the store, but you've got a suggestion that says I can't put non-customized things in them. Ya know, so I don't have an advantage.

Tellya what, I've got a solution for the OP and other folks who are bummed out by merc heroes. Buy a couple. Send Anet some cash.

Improvavel · Apr 17, 2011, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Simple - ask ANet. Ask them why they haven't released 7 heroes of each profession. Ask them why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't (although two players still can't run 6 Mesmers, lol). Ask them why they haven't nerfed Shadow Form yet. Ask them why a 8 human party can bring 24 PvE skills, but a 1 human party can't. Tell them they should release a cash shop item where you can buy PvE skill slots for heroes, because why should a 8 human party be able to choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't?

And I'm shutting up because this thread is getting idiotic.

Of course two players can run 6 mesmers, not that there is a need for 6 mesmers, although without a shadow form tank to ball the enemy they won't be as efficient.

I've always been a great defender of 7 heroes.
I've always been a great defender of pve-only skill for heroes (and I don't think anet should charge for this since it is already in game).
I've always disliked the non-interactive game Shadow Form allows but apparently that is the only way PUGs can play and that is why Anet keeps it in the game.

About Anet not releasing 7 heroes for each profession - probably it wasn't something very important since players could only bring 3 each before.

But mesmer spike and SF was already in game long before mer heroes, even long before mesmers were buffed.

Would Anet have added merc heroes for free?
I doubt it.

Would anet have added 7 heroes for each profession - 43 more heroes total?
I doubt it as well.

The question that remains is why don't you buy the merc heroes?
Matter of principle?
Don't have the money?
They don't give you enough to justify the price?
Hoping that Anet will reconsider and release a bunch of heroes for free?

Sk8tborderx · Apr 17, 2011, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I wasn't going to post, but this really caught my eye.

Get this: I don't really PvE, but I'm going to comment anyway.

And lol, keep asking for proof when I've given you two screenshots. Where is your counter-proof? Where is your screenshot showing that these times can be matched without mercenaries? Or are you just going to keep talking?

BECAUSE THAT ISN'T PROOF. I am not claiming anything, only pointing out that there is a suspicious lack of evidence. I don't need to PvE to point that out.

Quote:

So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa.

This just doesn't make sense. How have I shown a low opinion of PvE players? I only have a problem with flawed arguments.

EDIT: I would like to point out that I would support this change if it was proven to give players an advantage. Testing is required.

Jeydra · Apr 17, 2011, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I've always been a great defender of pve-only skill for heroes (and I don't think anet should charge for this since it is already in game).

The question that remains is why don't you buy the merc heroes?
Matter of principle?
Don't have the money?
They don't give you enough to justify the price?
Hoping that Anet will reconsider and release a bunch of heroes for free?

Maybe ANet should add a cash shop item that lets you buy PvE skill slots for heroes ...

Why does it matter why I don't buy mercenary heroes?

@Above - I'm reading that as "I'm too lazy to test, please go get me all the proof that I need so I can sit here and comment without doing work". Like I said, anyone who has tried knows how blazing fast 2 hours 15 minutes DoA FR is with heroes. 1 hour 11 minutes is even more insane. Those screenshots represent the very pinnacle of PvE achievement, and yet you say that those spectacular screenshots "ISN'T PROOF" in capital letters. Give me a good reason why I shouldn't have a low opinion of PvP players who insist on sharing their opinion on PvE balance. And PvP players who start making jealousy claims all the while knowing nothing about PvE.

But just for you, I'll give you another couple of screenshots. Here: http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg Also: http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw084.jpg.

Screenshot count - me 4, you a big round 0.

PvP'ers should really not comment on PvE balance.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 17, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Maybe ANet should add a cash shop item that lets you buy PvE skill slots for heroes ...

Why does it matter why I don't buy mercenary heroes?

@Above - I'm reading that as "I'm too lazy to test, please go get me all the proof that I need so I can sit here and comment without doing work". Like I said, anyone who has tried knows how blazing fast 2 hours 15 minutes DoA FR is with heroes. 1 hour 11 minutes is even more insane. Those screenshots represent the very pinnacle of PvE achievement, and yet you say that those spectacular screenshots "ISN'T PROOF" in capital letters. Give me a good reason why I shouldn't have a low opinion of PvP players who insist on sharing their opinion on PvE balance. And PvP players who start making jealousy claims all the while knowing nothing about PvE.

YOU are making the claims, therefore YOU need to do the testing to back them up. It cannot be explained any easier.

Quote:

But just for you, I'll give you another couple of screenshots. Here: http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg Also: http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw084.jpg.

Screenshot count - me 4, you a big round 0.

PvP'ers should really not comment on PvE balance.

Do you understand WHY simply posting screen shots with no comparisons is not proof? If not there is no helping you.

I am done posting in this thread until there is real proof posted. It really isn't hard to do, simply apply the scientific method. If you don't understand what that means then I can only assume you never passed a science class from 5th grade on.

EDIT: MAJOR fail with those last 2 screen shots by the way. You are comparing a person using Shadow Form and heroes with people that aren't, although I suspect you already knew that.

Essence Snow · Apr 17, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

YOU are making the claims, therefore YOU need to do the testing to back them up. It cannot be explained any easier.

Since Anet acknowledges that they are an advantage, tbh your are the one that needs to back up that they do not.

I am rather disappointed that Upier's post got deleted as it put it very well.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 17, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

EDIT: Since ANET themselves has stated they provide an advantage then the argument is settled. I think it is sad that they are okay with providing an advantage for money.

I support the suggestion in the OP.

/signed

NerfHerder · Apr 17, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

/notsigned

When Merc Heroes were first introduced I thought a hero cap would have been a good idea. I now realize the problem is much deeper than that. It's the professions that are inherently better than the rest thats the problem. Balance the professions and this becomes a non issue.

I agree that Merc Heroes gives an advantage. But, compared to SF, PvE Skills, Cons, profession imbalances, and the current ease of PvE, the MH advantages are relatively harmless. MH simply take advantage of all the other broken mechanics in the game.

As for ingame advantages for real life cash, MHs push the limit, but there are only so many cosmetic benefits players are willing to buy. Considering all updates and GW:B content are free, Anet was bound to start crossing the line at some point for continued revenue. IMO, MHs add fun and variety to a stale game, which far outwieghs the small ingame advantages.

Improvavel · Apr 17, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

But just for you, I'll give you another couple of screenshots. Here: http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg Also: http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw084.jpg.

Screenshot count - me 4, you a big round 0.

PvP'ers should really not comment on PvE balance.

I don't understand what you are trying to do prove with these screenshots.

The 1 hour difference to Pom Pom is mostly caused by Shadow Form.

It is a shame Pom Pom doesn't post a screen shot of him doing this without mercs,

Lasai · Apr 18, 2011, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Link to anything ANET stated regarding Mercs being an "advantage".

Furthermore, if profession makeup in group is the "advantage", then it needs limited in all ways, not just heroes. Advantage is Advantage..a group of 5 same prof players would be just as "advantageous".

Watch what you wish for.

And on another topic.. speed clears are the "Pinnacle of PVE" is just an opinion. To me. farming is farming, I really don't care how or what the power farmers do or how fast they do it, nor do I want to have the QQ of a subset of powergamers dictating what is fair or unfair for the whole game.

Speed Clear records aren't even supported by the game.. only by a relatively small group posting on a fan forum. Gamewise.. non issue. If you want to limit this fan based, unofficial type of competition.. do so. Set up whatever rules you want and leave the game alone.

Essence Snow · Apr 18, 2011, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Link to anything ANET stated regarding Mercs being an "advantage".

Furthermore, if profession makeup in group is the "advantage", then it needs limited in all ways, not just heroes. Advantage is Advantage..a group of 5 same prof players would be just as "advantageous".

Watch what you wish for.

And on another topic.. speed clears are the "Pinnacle of PVE" is just an opinion. To me. farming is farming, I really don't care how or what the power farmers do or how fast they do it, nor do I want to have the QQ of a subset of powergamers dictating what is fair or unfair for the whole game.

Speed Clear records aren't even supported by the game.. only by a relatively small group posting on a fan forum. Gamewise.. non issue. If you want to limit this fan based, unofficial type of competition.. do so. Set up whatever rules you want and leave the game alone.

Upier had just linked it...but it got deleted (idk y)...I tried (minimally) to find it....(it was on John Stumme's wiki)....but I'm not going to search too much as you are fully capable (I assume) to do so yourself. To put it briefly he stated that..yes they know they are an advantage, but so were storage panes, campaigns/skill unlocks...etc. Basically admitting that merchs are/were not the only adv available from the cash shop. If you really want to see it...take the time and look for it....not that hard. Don't expect someone else to do all the work for you.

We all know about how 8 of one profession can clear areas more efficiently than more balanced teams....(look at and sin sc...or the 600/smite vqs)

Tbh I'm "not signed" in reguards to this suggestion/thread.....as it's really messed up to sell seomthing then say..."oh hey...u know that thing u bought...we are going to mod it so it sorta suxs for u"

I only reply to ya'll, that for some reason insist on trying to prove to idk who, that everything is marshmellows and candycanes. The ppl that read all this should have the right to know what's going on w/o a few ppl always trying to skew everything.

Lasai · Apr 18, 2011, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I have seen that Stumme post, LOL that is the "smoking gun" proving advantage?? I thought perhaps someone had found something we all didn't know already. Yeah, it is no greater advantage than anything else previously offered.

The day that times matter re completion of the game,, the day ANET sets up tourneys for speedclears or timed Z mission speed clear payouts.. then QQ. Till then.. only you all care. Stop attempting to screw with my purchase based on your private epeen competitions. I did not buy Mercs to speed clear, dont speed clear, and could care less about it.. and don't want my purchase devalued in any matter based on some unofficial sideshow.

NerfHerder · Apr 18, 2011, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Link to anything ANET stated regarding Mercs being an "advantage".

John Stumme did have a write up on the very subject of in game advantages on his wiki page. It's not there now. He did admit that it was an advantage. Although he also puts Mercs in the same catagory as expansion packs. And I for one have to agree with this logic. If you want heroes and skills, buy NF and EotN. If you want even more heroes, buy Mercs. The only sippery slope here is one that pays for updates and creates happy GW players.

On topic, if they limit professions in a group, it should be for heroes and real players. Otherwise, it wouldnt be fair to the solo player.

Jeydra · Apr 18, 2011, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Here's an example of the scientific method at work in Guild Wars ... or a proof that Mesmers are completely overpowered in PvE.

Consider this screenshot - http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw101.jpg/
Then consider this one -http://img593.imageshack.us/i/gw117b.jpg/

Without my Mesmer I can't even complete Raisu HM anymore! Surely Mesmers must be completely overpowered in PvE! Oh my God!!

If you claim that mercenaries don't provide in-game advantages, go out there and get screenshots to back your claims up. Times for areas using mercenaries have already been posted. Don't be lazy and expect everyone else to do your work for you.

@Lasai, those screenshots are the pinnacle of PvE achievement not because they are speedclears. They are the pinnacle of PvE achievement because of the effort and skill they take to play. Can you for example achieve an 8:07 time or faster in Raisu HM, without using consumables? I doubt it.

Stumme's entry is pretty bad. He doesn't seem to understand PvE balance either.

Arguing that mercenaries give an in-game advantage but that mercenaries are nonetheless justified is a defensible position. Arguing that mercenaries do not give an in-game advantage is not. Don't believe me, prove me wrong. Get a screenshot of DoA FR faster than 1 hour 11 minutes.

Once again I'll predict responses to this argument.

1. Pom (or me, in the case of Raisu) are way above average in terms of player skill.
2. Shadow Form.
3. I don't care how fast I do stuff, I care only that I succeed.
4. DoA / Raisu aren't representative areas (or I don't care about DoA and other elite areas).
5. Consumables.

These reasons always show up, one way or another ...

Lasai · Apr 18, 2011, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Sorry, but if you are going to make the claim for in-game advantage then it falls to you to prove in-game tangible benefit deriving from that so called advantage.

You receive nothing from the game by doing it faster than the required master time..something achievable easily without mercs.

All you get from this "advantage" in speed is a screen shot and an inflated ego.. neither of those worth changing game mechanics over. The game itself gives you absolutely nothing for that 8 min Raisu.

I cannot log onto the ANET site and see a ladder or rewards given for speed for any Normal mission/explorable. If I could..perhaps you would have a case. This, however, is over bragging rights on an internet forum.

Nobody is denied anything by not having Merc Heroes. In no case does the game give an actual reward to those having Mercs that is unattainable by those who do not.

Your speed contests are again, a private, fan based competition unsupported and unrewarded by ANET. You can call it what ever "pinnacle" you want, at the end of the day it is just a thread on a forum, and in actuality probably one ignored by a very large majority of people who play the game.

Your perception of "balance" issues in the context of a screenshot contest has no bearing on actual ingame rewards. Speed, whether attained by consumables, hero makeup, or skillsets is merely a matter of convenience, and the importance of that convenience is solely in the individuals opinion.

As with most optional convenience purchases you have to decide if it is worth the additional cost or not. No one has yet to prove an advantage with Mercs, in normal gameplay, worthy of changing normal gameplay mechanics.

Xenomortis · Apr 18, 2011, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Sorry, but if you are going to make the claim for in-game advantage then it falls to you to prove in-game tangible benefit deriving from that so called advantage.

You receive nothing from the game by doing it faster than the required master time..something achievable easily without mercs.

If I can do everything in the game with 7 heroes, all only using 7 skill slots (with nothing in the 8th), then what advantage is given by the 8th slot.
Clearly this is a stupid position to argue from.

Having access to Mercs is an advantage. It's trivially true - for one thing I potentially have immediate access to level 20 heroes of any profession as soon as a char hits level 20.
Does that add up to much? No. But it's impossible to claim "no advantage" whilst this is true and even if this is discounted, it's still an untenable position.

Lasai · Apr 18, 2011, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If I can do everything in the game with 7 heroes, all only using 7 skill slots (with nothing in the 8th), then what advantage is given by the 8th slot.
Clearly this is a stupid position to argue from.

Having access to Mercs is an advantage. It's trivially true - for one thing I potentially have immediate access to level 20 heroes of any profession as soon as a char hits level 20.
Does that add up to much? No. But it's impossible to claim "no advantage" whilst this is true and even if this is discounted, it's still an untenable position.

Clearly, I have to quit assuming that people take statements in the context of the discussion. Clearly, this is a stupid position for me to take.

In the context of the argument the "advantage" being protested so vehemently is speed. I have yet to see anything tangible even on the level of an extra char slot or storage panel.. both "advantages" that are accepted and impact a far larger percentage of the game population than speed records do.

Of course Mercs are a trivial advantage in efficiency and convenience.. as with many of the other purchases. I have yet to see a convincing argument that Merc heroes provide an advantage worthy of a change in game mechanics, as this thread proposes. That is the type of "advantage" I refer to.

This proposal on limits is akin to arguing "I can't have every prof in game without buying extra slots, therefore I propose that all players be limited to only 8 professions regardless of number of character slots"

Jeydra · Apr 18, 2011, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Do you deny that buying Prophecies provides an in-game advantage, because I bet everything can be done without Prophecies skills, with the only thing lost being speed?

Do you deny that things can be done with 7 skill slots as opposed to 8, with the only thing lost being speed?

Or do you admit your position is stupid?

And you, like so many before you, show words, words and more words but refuse to come up with anything to back them up. Screenshot count last I checked: me 6, you (and all the other people who think mercenaries don't provide an in-game advantage in this thread) a big round 0.

I'll say this again. Arguing that mercenaries give an in-game advantage but that mercenaries are nonetheless justified is a defensible position. Arguing that mercenaries do not give an in-game advantage is not.