Curse

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 09:59 AM // 09:59

There is a complete lack of evidence that mercenary heroes provide any REAL advantage. Having more build variety, or making something take slightly less time is not a valid reason to make this change. If it allowed people to speed clear or was faster then even a 2 player/6 hero party, then yes, people can buy an advantage.

Right now people are getting upset for no reason.

/Not signed

EDIT: I see a lot of claims about advantages, even with numbers, yet 0 evidence to support them. If you make a claim, back it up.

PS - The only thing I have/will ever buy from the cash shop is the bonus mission pack.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Having more build variety, or making something take slightly less time is not a valid reason to make this change.

And why not? For both these things. Even if mercenaries do not make it so that you spend slightly less time doing something, why shouldn't having more build variety be a valid reason?

@Improvavel - 1 player + mercs + 5% damage boost isn't the most powerful team in the game either. Why not allow it then: buy an item that grants a 5% damage boost, on condition you have at least 6 heroes in your party

If you don't think a player being able to use 3 Mesmers vs. a player who can only use 2 Mesmers isn't an advantage, I haven't anything to say. And don't mention getting a second player, because if you do I'll argue that we should remove heroes entirely and you can go find another 7 humans, nothing lost, so don't complain.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 16, 2011, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Having an advantage would imply that you know that team build X, which contains more of one profession than are available through default heroes + one character, is better than every build Y which holds this limitation. I doubt you could prove such a thing to me or that such a thing necessarily exists. Even if you could find such a build, I questions how much better it would necessarily be than the best of builds Y.

Long story short, players are paying to have more options to play with, not necessarily more power. Plus, it would probably not be okay to renege and suddenly start taking features away from people that they paid for.

/notsigned

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Long story short, players are paying to have more options to play with, not necessarily more power.

More options is still an advantage for money.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And why not? For both these things. Even if mercenaries do not make it so that you spend slightly less time doing something, why shouldn't having more build variety be a valid reason?

Because that is the exact reason the cash shop exists. Character slots, costumes, storage tabs, bonus mission pack, etc. all exist to provide more options to characters if they choose to purchase it.

Quote:

@Improvavel - 1 player + mercs + 5% damage boost isn't the most powerful team in the game either. Why not allow it then: buy an item that grants a 5% damage boost, on condition you have at least 6 heroes in your party

If you don't think a player being able to use 3 Mesmers vs. a player who can only use 2 Mesmers isn't an advantage, I haven't anything to say. And don't mention getting a second player, because if you do I'll argue that we should remove heroes entirely and you can go find another 7 humans, nothing lost, so don't complain.

You provide absolutely no evidence to support your claims. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 03:18 PM // 15:18

So if I provide an option in the cash shop where you can buy a ninth skill to bring into battle, I get more options, and it's perfectly fair?

You provide no evidence to support your claims either, fyi. But I can show you this: http://img251.imageshack.us/f/gw724.jpg/

Let me go through the list of excuses you'll come up with why this doesn't matter, I've seen them all:

1. Pom is way above average as a player (aka. Pom did a lot of micro, and I don't like micro)
2. DoA is not a representative area.
3. Pom used Shadow Form.
4. Pom used consumables.
5. I don't care what other people run, I care about what I run.

Advantage doesn't exist

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So if I provide an option in the cash shop where you can buy a ninth skill to bring into battle, I get more options, and it's perfectly fair?

Fail logic is fail. The game is balanced around having a very limited number of skills available at any time, anything that adds to this number is a clear advantage.

Quote:

You provide no evidence to support your claims either, fyi. But I can show you this: http://img251.imageshack.us/f/gw724.jpg/

You are the one making the claim that mercenary heroes give an advantage, therefore the burden of proof lies with you.

Quote:

Let me go through the list of excuses you'll come up with why this doesn't matter, I've seen them all:

1. Pom is way above average as a player (aka. Pom did a lot of micro, and I don't like micro)
2. DoA is not a representative area.
3. Pom used Shadow Form.
4. Pom used consumables.
5. I don't care what other people run, I care about what I run.

Advantage doesn't exist

I am the one that is confused. What exactly is that screen shot supposed to show? Someone did a DoA run in HM with 7 heroes in 2 hours and 15 min doesn't mean anything without anything to compare it to. This is a perfect situation where you need to apply the scientific method. You have a theory that mercenary heroes provide players with an advantage. The next step is to test that idea.

Your list of excuses doesn't even have any part in this debate. 1 screen shot with no comparisons proves nothing. It is no different then claiming that x profession is overpowered and then showing a screen shot of said profession standing over my dead body as proof. Obviously no one will listen to what I say because the screen shot doesn't show anything other then me being dead.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Lol. The only reason I didn't include "but there's nothing to compare to" in my list of excuses is because it's completely idiotic. Anyone who has tried knows how blazing fast 2 hours 15 minutes DoA FR is with heroes.

If you can get a screenshot of a DoA FR without using mercenaries that's faster than 2 hours 15 minutes, post it. If you can't, please acknowledge that the screenshot proves the mercenary advantage and shut up. Or are you placing the burden of getting something to compare to on me as well? That's fine actually ... I'll just start a DoA full run and go AFK for a day at the beginning.

PS: Here's something more for you to consider. http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/520/gw734.jpg WTS idiots in Sardelac, hm ...
PPS: You're making the claim that being able to use 9 skill slots gives an advantage. Well, the burden of proof lies with you. Prove it.

Improvavel · Apr 16, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Improvavel - 1 player + mercs + 5% damage boost isn't the most powerful team in the game either. Why not allow it then: buy an item that grants a 5% damage boost, on condition you have at least 6 heroes in your party

But give them PvE-only skills first and the ability to use individual consumables, then throw +5% damage and they will be the most powerful team in the game stat wise.

In most places humans will be slower.

Still a 5% damage increase clearly gives a mechanical advantage - a merc hero acts like any other hero - any advantage it might give comes from the fact its profession being superior to other professions (and the fact melee AI sucks).

Quote:

If you don't think a player being able to use 3 Mesmers vs. a player who can only use 2 Mesmers isn't an advantage, I haven't anything to say. And don't mention getting a second player, because if you do I'll argue that we should remove heroes entirely and you can go find another 7 humans, nothing lost, so don't complain.

I've merc heroes. I generally play with at least another player all the time.

I'm with my friend so I can use 4 mesmer heroes (2 each) in the party and it is all fine.

My friend logs out, then I can only use 2 mesmer heroes because if I use 4 it is imbalanced?

Regarding the Pom Pom run.

1) Shadow Form - the still ubber imbalanced skill that makes AoE exponentially stronger - remove it and similar skills and then ask Pom Pom or either human teams to do those ultra fast DoA runs.

If I was someone that actually cared about that shit I bet some Necromancers with Feast of Corruption could be used to similar effect without that much efficiency lost.

2) Using DoA as the baseline for balance - DoA (especially the HM version of it) is one of the most broken places in the game!

3) I would like to see a build using merc heroes without shadow form or one of its ilk being considerably faster than one build using regular heroes.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

My friend logs out, then I can only use 2 mesmer heroes because if I use 4 it is imbalanced?

Because unless you purchase mercenaries you can't use 4. Mercenary heroes do not act like any other hero. You only have two Mesmers. After that you can run Necros or Monks or whatever wannabe Mesmers, but they aren't Mesmers and do not act like them. This really is obvious.

You are welcome to try with Feast of Corruption Necros replacing Mesmers. If you don't care enough to try (which I'm sorely tempted to read as "I'm not good enough, so I'm not about to attempt it"), then please shut up. You asked for evidence and got it. Don't come up with reasons why the evidence isn't valid without showing some effort at acquiring evidence of your own.

And lol, I predicted all three of the points you mentioned about the "Pom Pom run".

Improvavel · Apr 16, 2011, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Because unless you purchase mercenaries you can't use 4. Mercenary heroes do not act like any other hero. You only have two Mesmers. After that you can run Necros or Monks or whatever wannabe Mesmers, but they aren't Mesmers and do not act like them. This really is obvious.

A mercenary mesmer hero is as strong as mesmer hero.

Quote:

You are welcome to try with Feast of Corruption Necros replacing Mesmers. If you don't care enough to try (which I'm sorely tempted to read as "I'm not good enough, so I'm not about to attempt it"), then please shut up.

There was a thread sometime ago about what made possible Speed clears. Some said it was PvE-only skills like cop. Screens were posted without any single PvE-only skill of Urgoz and Deep runs still being as fast as before, using RoJ and FoC as the damage.

The problem lie in Shadow Form and its ability to over aggro.

Quote:

And lol, I predicted all three of the points you mentioned about the "Pom Pom run".

As I predicted your jab at me and I predicted you would have nothing else to say about those points except loling.

And it wasn't very hard to predict those points - after all I've posted them before in the thread where the pom pom run debuted.

Unfortunately, you that do care about these things, don't have 2 merc slots - you would see that without a tanking skill those times are untouchable.

That is why no one has been able to post screen shots as fast as those from pom pom even when they use 4 mesmer heroes but no shadow form.

It is also a shame no other incredible runs from somewhere else also appeared with the exception of DoA.

But maybe one of these days I'll give it a try, when I'm bored - after all I've an assassin although I haven't finished nightfall with him.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 05:42 PM // 17:42

And that matters how? We're discussing mercenary heroes, not Shadow Form.

I could give more examples, but I'm hard pressed to find a reason to bother. This reminds me of trying to prove that BDSM is subpar. BDSM supporters will find reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever, and will never admit they're wrong. This is developing the same way. Despite the evidence that mercenary heroes provide an in-game advantage, you come up with reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever. Instead of picking on mercenary heroes, let's pick on Shadow Form instead yeah? All the while never coming up with your own evidence, too ...

Improvavel · Apr 16, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And that matters how? We're discussing mercenary heroes, not Shadow Form.

I could give more examples, but I'm hard pressed to find a reason to bother. This reminds me of trying to prove that BDSM is subpar. BDSM supporters will find reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever, and will never admit they're wrong. This is developing the same way. Despite the evidence that mercenary heroes provide an in-game advantage, you come up with reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever. Instead of picking on mercenary heroes, let's pick on Shadow Form instead yeah? All the while never coming up with your own evidence, too ...

I already said mercenary heroes provide more options and that is an advantage. But they don't provide a mechanical advantage.

And my own evidence is simple.

If mercenary mesmer heroes provide mechanical advantage, then why do 3 mesmer heroes in a 2 player party doesn't?

Explain me.

Explain me why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't?

Explain me why a 8 human party can choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't.

If you can explain me that I'll shut up. If you don't then please shut up yourself.

Perkunas · Apr 16, 2011, 07:17 PM // 19:17

The argument being offered is having more options is an unfair advantage. What about the people that bought the GotY edition vs those that didn't? It gives you max weapons and an imp in starter areas. These are also more options that none are arguing against.

Lasai · Apr 16, 2011, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Oh OH lets remove all paid for advantages from DoA!!

Please disable all non NF skills and heros..also any non NF consumables..

Its just so not fair to have to buy all those other games and expansion just to do a NF instance as fast as people that did.

QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ

Oh and disable non NF armor too, its an "advantage" to look better.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2011, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I already said mercenary heroes provide more options and that is an advantage. But they don't provide a mechanical advantage.

And my own evidence is simple.

If mercenary mesmer heroes provide mechanical advantage, then why do 3 mesmer heroes in a 2 player party doesn't?

Explain me.

Explain me why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't?

Explain me why a 8 human party can choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't.

If you can explain me that I'll shut up. If you don't then please shut up yourself.

Simple - ask ANet. Ask them why they haven't released 7 heroes of each profession. Ask them why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't (although two players still can't run 6 Mesmers, lol). Ask them why they haven't nerfed Shadow Form yet. Ask them why a 8 human party can bring 24 PvE skills, but a 1 human party can't. Tell them they should release a cash shop item where you can buy PvE skill slots for heroes, because why should a 8 human party be able to choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't?

And I'm shutting up because this thread is getting idiotic.

Essence Snow · Apr 16, 2011, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Just another lil tid bit for ya'lls consideration...

I do not have merch heros but my friend does......we together exploit his heros to full potential all over the game.

How do you ask?......You know that abiltiy that SF has to hold massive aggro? You know the massive AoE spikes mesmers are capable of?

I run SF tank.....all I do is worry about balling aggro and staying alive. My buddy uses his merch mesmer team to spike the holy Toledo out of them.

The combination of 2 players using merch heros in this manner allows for almost no microing and making most of GW rediculously easy.

For those saying well you could bring mesmers heros too....obviously you have never tanked and tried to micro heros for a spike. The set up is simply not possible without merchs for a 2 person team.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 17, 2011, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just another lil tid bit for ya'lls consideration...

I do not have merch heros but my friend does......we together exploit his heros to full potential all over the game.

How do you ask?......You know that abiltiy that SF has to hold massive aggro? You know the massive AoE spikes mesmers are capable of?

I run SF tank.....all I do is worry about balling aggro and staying alive. My buddy uses his merch mesmer team to spike the holy Toledo out of them.

The combination of 2 players using merch heros in this manner allows for almost no microing and making most of GW rediculously easy.

For those saying well you could bring mesmers heros too....obviously you have never tanked and tried to micro heros for a spike. The set up is simply not possible without merchs for a 2 person team.

You can set up hot keys for your heroes, it isn't that hard. You could also accomplish this with 3 RoJ monks, 2 mesmers, channeling rit, and whatever else you want. The only requirement is knowing how to abuse the mob AI by balling enemies on a corner.

There is still a severe lack of evidence to back up any claims that mercenary heroes provide an advantage. 2 tests, both with mercenary heroes proves nothing. Might as well say god exists because the bible says so, the argument is retarded. This is pretty basic stuff.

Essence Snow · Apr 17, 2011, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

You can set up hot keys for your heroes, it isn't that hard. You could also accomplish this with 3 RoJ monks, 2 mesmers, channeling rit, and whatever else you want. The only requirement is knowing how to abuse the mob AI by balling enemies on a corner.

There is still a severe lack of evidence to back up any claims that mercenary heroes provide an advantage. 2 tests, both with mercenary heroes proves nothing. Might as well say god exists because the bible says so, the argument is retarded. This is pretty basic stuff.

You still have to micro them...via flagging and your hotkeys. Using the merchs and seperate sf tank all the person that has the merchs has to do is ping a target...that's all...nothing else and all the tank has to do is ball aggro and stay alive (no need for corners)...If you can't see how blatently easier that is...I'm sry I can't help you.

If you are unaware of why mesmers are great hero spikers.......maybe by reading skill descriptions, knowing that they have armor ignoring dmg, don't cause scatter, and benefit from fast casting one might be able to put 2+2 together and come to that realization for themself.

Where's any...ANY evidence that they do not provide an advantage? I am fully aware of what they provide...and I abuse it. I am fully aware of the advantage SF provides...and I abuse it. I know these things because I have used them numerous times in numerous areas....I have also tried using other hero AoE teams.....none of which are on par with mes-spike.

Have you even tried it?

Sk8tborderx · Apr 17, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

You still have to micro them...via flagging and your hotkeys. Using the merchs and seperate sf tank all the person that has the merchs has to do is ping a target...that's all...nothing else and all the tank has to do is ball aggro and stay alive (no need for corners)...If you can't see how blatently easier that is...I'm sry I can't help you.

It doesn't require mercenary heroes though, it requires another player with heroes. I was simply pointing out that it really isn't all that difficult to bring your own hero mesmers and another player.

Quote:

If you are unaware of why mesmers are great hero spikers.......maybe by reading skill descriptions, knowing that they have armor ignoring dmg, don't cause scatter, and benefit from fast casting one might be able to put 2+2 together and come to that realization for themself.

Mesmers have strong spikes, so do other classes. Scatter is only an issue if you don't understand how to take advantage of the monster AI. If you want to use a SF tank to show how powerful heroes are, then you need to also assume players understand how to abuse other mechanics.

Quote:

Where's any...ANY evidence that they do not provide an advantage? I am fully aware of what they provide...and I abuse it. I am fully aware of the advantage SF provides...and I abuse it. I know these things because I have used them numerous times in numerous areas....I have also tried using other hero AoE teams.....none of which are on par with mes-spike.

The burden of proof is not on me, it is on the person saying they give the advantage. Prove there isn't an invisible pink unicorn on mars. I am also not saying they don't provide an advantage, I am simply saying there is a complete lack of evidence showing they do.

Quote:

Have you even tried it?

Mercenary heroes don't affect me at all, I don't really PvE, and when I do I am usually soloing. I have also mentioned previously that the only thing I have purchased in the store is the bonus mission pack.

I am just tired of threads popping up with people complaining about mercenary heroes giving an advantage for money and not providing any evidence to support their claims. It APPEARS to be simple jealousy.