Curse

Kurosaki129 · Apr 22, 2011, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin

For a character with 80 AR, I do not believe there are any blocking skills for a paragon

are you SURE about this!?

[Burning Shield]: Skill. (3...8...9 seconds.) Blocks the next attack skill against you. Inflicts Burning condition (1...5...6 second[s]) if it was a melee attack.

Defensive Anthem: Elite Chant. (4...9...10 seconds.) Party members in earshot have 50% chance to block. Ends when hitting with an attack skill.

these are available in PvP as blocking skills for the Paragon i believe?

anyways. /not signed. From my point of view, paragon is dead in PvP and exists solely for PvE.

Elnino · Apr 22, 2011, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

cause paragons certainly need skill updates.

Definately not for PvP.

If they are to buff anything for paragons it should be in the leadership attribute only.

Lanier · Apr 22, 2011, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Definately not for PvP.

I didnt say they did need them for PvP.

For PvE, they need a motivation overhaul for the non-elites and a rework of the conditionality factors on command/leadership skills in addition to buffs to the leadership and command elites.

Elnino · Apr 22, 2011, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I didnt say they did need them for PvP.

For PvE, they need a motivation overhaul for the non-elites and a rework of the conditionality factors on command/leadership skills in addition to buffs to the leadership and command elites.

Look at the title.

Our Virus · Apr 23, 2011, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I want the paragon update as well. Look at the dervs, what else could go wrong?

chuckles79 · Apr 27, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbrown

Only reason paragons seem so weak is because everything else is just way to overpowered.

Paragons are good but not amazing, hence why it is probably one of the most balanced classes out there.

So it's not that paras are weak, it's just that everything else is overpowered.....do you work for the RNC, because you have excellent spin my friend.

If everyone is stronger than you, you're are weak, not balanced!!!

chuckles79 · Apr 27, 2011, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosaki129

are you SURE about this!?

[Burning Shield]: Skill. (3...8...9 seconds.) Blocks the next attack skill against you. Inflicts Burning condition (1...5...6 second[s]) if it was a melee attack.

Defensive Anthem: Elite Chant. (4...9...10 seconds.) Party members in earshot have 50% chance to block. Ends when hitting with an attack skill.

these are available in PvP as blocking skills for the Paragon i believe?

anyways. /not signed. From my point of view, paragon is dead in PvP and exists solely for PvE.

Burning shield blocks 1 attack.

Defensive anthem has 2 second cast and 25 second recharge, and you can't attack.
Compare to non-elite warrior shouts "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields Up!"

Sorry, burning shield isn't bad (added in EotN) but Def. Anthem is a crappy skill and is certainly not worthy of being an elite skill. As I said before, add sometime to it, reduce the blocking %, and allow attacking.

chuckles79 · Apr 27, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

There are two things that they can do, that will buff paras without completely destroying PvP as we know it; and they will be rather simple.
First, slight buff to the healing numbers of the motivation line.
Second, remove all the dam conditional restrictions on 90% of the paragon skills. Every freaking skill is "if they are moving", "if they are bleeding", "if they are crippled", "only if you don't attack", "only on yourself (PvP)".

If a skill is overpowered than increase the energy cost, with 2 pips and the team moving and scattered, you won't get the full benefits of leadership bonuses.

"Find Their Weakness" is overpowered, increase the cost and recharge but don't gimp the skill on top of those other things.

If paras seem to get strong, then players will just have to change their meta bars for some anti-para hate.

There are so many skills that shutdown paras, would it really kill the entirety of PvP if one player on a team had to pack ulcerous lungs, vocal minority, or well of silence?

*lemming* · Apr 27, 2011, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Balancing things around hard counters with no other use is terrible design.

And no, enchantment removal doesn't fall under that category.

Skyy High · Apr 27, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

There are so many skills that shutdown paras, would it really kill the entirety of PvP if one player on a team had to pack ulcerous lungs, vocal minority, or well of silence?

Yes, because those skills are terrible if you don't face paragons.

They've buffed mesmer interrupts to hit chants now, at least, so they might be able to get away with buffing some of those.

Jbrown · Apr 27, 2011, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

So it's not that paras are weak, it's just that everything else is overpowered.....do you work for the RNC, because you have excellent spin my friend.

If everyone is stronger than you, you're are weak, not balanced!!!

Defensive anthem has 2 second cast and 25 second recharge, and you can't attack.

Yes, i am saying that most of the other classes are Overpowered. The reason they are OP'ed is because they are way to easy to score kills on and they are TOO good at there jobs. Look at the buffs to the Mesmer, Necro, and Dervish for instance, it was a little underpowered so they buffed it and now they are the main OP'ed classes to use in PvP. When paragons have seen use it was either cause there skills were to OP (i.e. the motivation line and the original Incoming) or because the game was semi balanced after most of the classes were brought down to a managable level. Everything is going back to the old ways of Buff everything and hope nothing is too OP which i have yet to see work. Buff them in PvE since that area of the game is already a joke but leave it out of pvp. Heck, at this rate they might as well allow pve only skills into PvP and allow everyone to take a copy of Base Defense into matches and just let the servers decide who gets the kill.

BTW, DA lets you attack, it ends on attack skills.

yum · Apr 27, 2011, 10:23 PM // 22:23

"The dead should stay dead."

Bandwagon · Apr 28, 2011, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Honestly guys and gals, I am pretty sure the live team won't need our idiotic skill balance suggestions to powercreep the paragon to absurd levels judging from their track record.

doomfodder · May 02, 2011, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What would buffing a midline class already capable of outputting unhealthy amounts of physical damage do for the game that would be beneficial in terms of the big picture?

One change does not siginficantly affect the "big picture"...

but then again, the "big picture" isn't the only issue that "needs addressing"

*lemming* · May 02, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

One change does not siginficantly affect the "big picture"...

but then again, the "big picture" isn't the only issue that "needs addressing"

The dervish update wants a talk with you.

doomfodder · May 02, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Yes. And?

It's a support-based midliner, it only really has a role in team-based formats by design. There's not much that can be done to fix that. Certainly, straight buffing of the class is ludicrous; it's balanced where it is in 8v8 formats.

/AGREE

But I find it kinda Ironic that the build with the "most utility" for RA Paragons has NO SHOUTS/CHANTS/ECHOS - since E management is inhrently handicapped in RA.

12+? Spear, 12+? Mot, (sure put 3 in leadership)

Spear of Lightning
Barbed Spear
Holy Spear
Blazing Spear
Spear of Redemption
Empathic Removal
Signet Of Synergy
Res Sig

Of course there are always options instead of Spear Of Redemption &/or Holy Spear if you actually THINK you can manage the E in RA with all the blocks/dodges - Disrupting Throw, Maiming Spear, Spear Swipe, etc...

doomfodder · May 02, 2011, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

The dervish update wants a talk with you.

I guess I misterpreted what you meant by "big picture". I thought that "big picture" meant things like bring players back to PvP, bring new players into PvP, Eliminate wait times for matches to start, eliminated rank discrimination, etc... if "big picture" means STEERING the meta then yeah I must /AGREE that a set of changes to a specific class CAN affect the meta.

Sry for mis-interpretation lemming...

Steps_Descending · May 02, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I'm tired of the myth that spear damage is higher than other ranged weapons.
This is most likely said by non-paragon primaries who use +5 energy spears and think it's gee whiz-golly better than the staffs and wands they would be using otherwise.
Removing PvE only skills, the paragon is very difficult to use in PvP and is only effective within a limited scope of coniditions.

[..]

This was done solely and purely solely to accommodate GvG, and the disproportionate effect paras originally had on the GvG meta.

Anet PvP focus has been on GvG since day one, and remains there. If it's bad for GvG it's going to be buffed or nerfed.
Since shouts and chants can affect 8 on 8 games disproportionately, Anet has essentially given up on paragons in PvP.

I think the spear damage myth is because it is talking about natural dmg. WIth no attack skill and no +dmg added. But anyway,

Can I ask what was so bad about paras in GvG. I only remeber 6 para team who were camping altar in HA. You make it sounds as if it was impossible to correctly balance it for 8-man play. I guess 6 para + runner would be annoying, but in a normal team, why was it impossible for them to tone balance them to 8man level and admit they will be bad in the other formats.

Still Number One · May 02, 2011, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

I guess I misterpreted what you meant by "big picture". I thought that "big picture" meant things like bring players back to PvP, bring new players into PvP, Eliminate wait times for matches to start, eliminated rank discrimination, etc... if "big picture" means STEERING the meta then yeah I must /AGREE that a set of changes to a specific class CAN affect the meta.

Sry for mis-interpretation lemming...

Well, there is no skill update they could do that would cause a significant change in any of those things you mentioned. So as far as skill updates go, the biggest picture they can affect would be steering the meta. Bringing players back, getting new players to start playing, eliminating rank discrimination, etc... is something that can only be addressed through a physical change in how the game is played similar to a change in the tournament structure and rewards provided. Skill updates are not powerful enough to actually make a difference in that category.

*lemming* · May 02, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

I guess I misterpreted what you meant by "big picture". I thought that "big picture" meant things like bring players back to PvP, bring new players into PvP, Eliminate wait times for matches to start, eliminated rank discrimination, etc... if "big picture" means STEERING the meta then yeah I must /AGREE that a set of changes to a specific class CAN affect the meta.

Sry for mis-interpretation lemming...

I can agree with that, I suppose.

To be fair, though, how does buffing a class specifically revitalize PvP? The population spike from any big update only lasts a week, if even that. For it to be otherwise, it would have to either

a. significantly fix the game, thereby convincing many former players to unretire (odds of Anet pulling that off are zero)
b. add something that appeals to the lowest common denominator enough that many PvEers will actually want to switch over

Dervishes should have fit that second description - look at how many PvE dervishes you've seen since the update. No one can disagree that it was a very successful update for that purpose. However, adding a Fisher-Price class to PvP only served to kill it more. The same new players who are trying to get in don't enjoy getting abused by the same bar played by someone else.

Once upon a time, Anet refused to nerf blood spike for months on end because they thought that new players would enjoy having an easy build to run, conveniently ignoring the fact that new players unanimously hated spike because it's the definition of a build that works significantly worse against low rating teams (highly dependent on the infuse monk's ability to make a save). I imagine that the effect that dervishes have for players new to GvG is similar - it's not fun at all to get smashed in less than a minute and not have any idea what happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I think the spear damage myth is because it is talking about natural dmg. WIth no attack skill and no +dmg added. But anyway,

Can I ask what was so bad about paras in GvG. I only remeber 6 para team who were camping altar in HA. You make it sounds as if it was impossible to correctly balance it for 8-man play. I guess 6 para + runner would be annoying, but in a normal team, why was it impossible for them to tone balance them to 8man level and admit they will be bad in the other formats.

Paragons do similar autoattack DPS to axe warriors at range. In other words, you're getting most of the 8v8 functionality of a warrior (damage, deep wounds) without the penalty of positioning, being vulnerable to snares, having to land Bull's Strikes, or getting dumped on by very good prot monks. What that has added up to is a class that basically requires zero interactivity to play - you can literally play at 95% efficiency with one hand.

The only reason you don't see more paragons these days is because of how the metagame evolved - in an environment where pushing the opposing team's flagger and stopping them from pushing yours is paramount, the immobility and relative lack of utility of paragons is a liability.