Curse

Elnino · May 14, 2011, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Out of all the OP skills in the game, you want to go after the one elite that takes some small shred of player skill to use effectively and which is the key skill in at least half if not more of all effective caster builds (not just ele)? Why?

You just answered your own question. When something becomes so important that it becomes a staple in almost every build, it needs a nerf. Also, it doesn't take any skill to use it effectively.

Terrible Surgeon · May 14, 2011, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

/signed for the AP nerf

I find it silly that anyone would say that nerfing an OP skill would "ruin" PvE for people...

AP in itself isn't necessarily overpowered... its the combination of AP + Eotn PvE skills that is overpowered. While I am all for nerfing the eotn PvE skills, this isn't going to happen. As such, unless all of the offensive eotn PvE skills are nerfed, I support nerfing AP FOR ASSASSING SECONDARIES.

By this, i mean change it so that AP only affects assassin skills. Currently, the only viable alternative to JS>FF>DB spam for assassins is using AP with various, synergizing attack skills (ex: black mantis thrust>jungle strike>trampling ox>falling lotus strike>blades of steel). With the low recharge of the JS>FF>DB chain, there is simply no way another build can compete with it unless AP is used to negate the recharge. Therefore, in my opinion, nerf AP for secondary classes to prevent the abuse of eotn PvE skills but keep it the same for assassins to prevent the class from falling further into an only-one-build-is-viable profession.

EDIT: and combine the AP nerf with a change to elemental lord or intensity that grants armor penetration (scaling) to elementalist skills.

IDC what you find funny and i doubt anyone else really does either. Point being, many players enjoy running around PvE using one build, IE. Shadowform sins, AP ele, AoTL necros and etc...when you have played the game for 6 years and you know what you like (ap ele build) it is likely that if something you like (ap ele build) disappears so will you. Being that you quit.

Its PvE and its for fun. AP can fail and sometimes does. Its a useless skill outside of doing things like solo VQ. I think that should sum it up.

/not signed

Glyph of renewal needs a change, but a lot of useless elite skills need changed. I like the ideas people have in the thread but i think its just another AP specified for ele use only. That seems a little unfair taking AP away from everyone else as suggested while giving the ele a skill similar if not better than AP..

/unsigned

SheilaWhiteclaw · May 14, 2011, 08:51 AM // 08:51

/SIGNED for nerf

/SIGNED for GoR buff.

My opinion,not only glyph should be buffed, but also, elemental attributes. Water and Earth magic are super underrated, Air is used but not as much, leaving Fire magic being over used... shame.

Xenomortis · May 14, 2011, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The good way to do it is to weaken the OP crap while giving them more viable build options, hence why AP should be nerfed at the same time intensity or elemental lord is changed to give armor penetration to elemental spells.

The point is that this change won't do that.
Whilst Assassin's Promise is arguably an OP skill, it's not the core of the problem. Destroying it would be detrimental at this point.

vitorvdp_68 · May 14, 2011, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Basically, you want to buff glyph so that Eles can take a different secondary, and nerf AP so that all the other classes that usually use it get screwed over?

No thanks.
If you want to make Eles more powerful, I don't think Glyph is what you should be looking at.

/notsigned

Edit: when you suggest an idea, you have to mention what positive impact it could have on players. Which you haven't...

Calista Blackblood · May 14, 2011, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Winterclaw cleverly forgot to add that he wants AP nerfed to sins only to force an update to ele damage output and lol water nukes.

Neither the problem nor the solution lie with AP or GoR in this case.

Lanier · May 14, 2011, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

IDC what you find funny and i doubt anyone else really does either. Point being, many players enjoy running around PvE using one build, IE. Shadowform sins, AP ele, AoTL necros and etc...when you have played the game for 6 years and you know what you like (ap ele build) it is likely that if something you like (ap ele build) disappears so will you. Being that you quit.

Its PvE and its for fun. AP can fail and sometimes does. Its a useless skill outside of doing things like solo VQ. I think that should sum it up.

/not signed

You want to talk about having fun? Having one build that dominates all others for a given profession is not fun - it kills build diversity for that profession. A large part of this game is the fact that their are countless skills and countless skill combinations, and being limited by the fact that one combination of skills (most of which arn't even elementalist) completely dominate all other builds is counter to having a variety of equally viable builds. What I am trying to say is that the fact that one build dominates all other builds for a single profession (note that i am talking about offensive builds here, obviously eles can also ER), is not fun at all.

I'll go back to my analogy with paragons. The imbagon build is simply far more effective than any of the other builds available to paragons. It is OP, and as such, has ruined the fun of the class because it has restricted the build diversity and forced you to run a single build if you want to run the optimal build.

In other words, having one build that clearly outshines all of the other builds for that intended use (and by a large margin too) is not "fun" at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The point is that this change won't do that.
Whilst Assassin's Promise is arguably an OP skill, it's not the core of the problem. Destroying it would be detrimental at this point.

I'm not supporting the Glyph change. I said that I supported a nerf to AP if it accompanied a change that made elemental damage useful, and I don't believe the glyph change in the OP is the right way to make elementalists useful offensively. Back to my paragon analogy - I support a nerf to imbagons as long as it occurs at the same time other options for paragon support are buffed.

_Deals_ · May 14, 2011, 05:33 PM // 17:33

/not signed,

if you're talking about nerfing AP why not nerf SoS, since even like AP, SoS is used by other caster classes besides ritualist, what about putting AP under Critical Strikes so no one besides assassins can get it above 4(with the help of lots of p-cons)..but of course rework the skill and give it some XX% damage along with the energy gain when foe dies. It's 5 years into factions, i don't think it's really going to matter now..and i don't really see anyone using it anymore anyways since everyone and there mother uses SoS because of Spirit Walls, AP is a good spike if you use, spirit-way bars on heros and you don't need to run SoS yourself.

Kunder · May 14, 2011, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

You just answered your own question. When something becomes so important that it becomes a staple in almost every build, it needs a nerf.

It may need a nerf, yes, but more importantly every other shitty useless option that can't be run because its too weak needs a buff. This would be like nerfing SY and then telling paragons to go RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off and be useless everywhere in guild wars. Its not just eles that use AP, nearly every other caster uses it in their own way to make builds that are not only more effective, but also more mechanically interesting than the other builds available to them.

Furthermore, if you are intent on nerfing a skill simply because it is used a lot, go into a zaishen quest and check the groups forming. I daresay you will be lucky if AP users make up 5% of the players. Several other elites are used at least 5x if not 10x more often than AP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Also, it doesn't take any skill to use it effectively.

I would never presume to call any build usage in guild wars as really requiring "skill" (give any half decent player a build and they can probably draw up a flow chart of its usage in 5 mins). But AP is the only one currently available in which if you misjudge the environment you are dead weight for 45s. Whatever you want to call that, it requires a hell of a lot more attention than lol I cast spirits 1-2-3-4-5 then aggro the mob and AFK.

vitorvdp_68 · May 14, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Plus, AP is a hex, and so can be removed (and it does happen).

Winterclaw · May 14, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

As mentioned, part of the reason for the suggestion was that if you get rid of els exploiting AP (for both recharge and energy), they would probably deserve a much needed fix. The first part of that fix could potentially be a buff to GoR, which is why I suggested that.

My opinion on water magic is a different matter.

Essence Snow · May 14, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Six pages of AP debate which ppl were not to happy bout

tiny_the_tokin_bear · May 14, 2011, 10:48 PM // 22:48

/signed ele buff of some kind

/notsigned AP nerf

Yes eles are terribad, nerfing AP is not the way to remedy this. Perhaps changing Energy Storage over to "Elemental Mastery" where your elemental damage and/or penetration is increased and your energy cost for elemental spells is also decreased so as to allow similar energy management to the present energy storage primary would be a worth while change.

Swingline · May 14, 2011, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Six pages of AP debate which ppl were not to happy bout

I remember that debate and it was like trying to take candy from a baby, all you get is crying. The whole point those people missed is it is all a balance issue. They simply don't care because they don't play those classes or are afraid of change.

When another professions elite becomes the best elite for another profession to use then you have a big problem with balance. Another elite like AP is SoS. SoS does more damage at 12 channeling magic than most skills of other professions at 16, not to mention its utility for taking heat off you and other party members.

Tormiasz · May 15, 2011, 08:56 AM // 08:56

My suggestion to change the skills descriptions:

AP: E Cost: 5, Cast Time: 3/4s, Recharge Time: 20s
Elite Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 0...1...2 Energy for every rank in Critical Strikes and all your skills excluding Assassin's Promise are recharged.

Glyph of Renewal: E Cost: 5, Cast Time: 1, Recharge Time: 15s
Elite Glyph. For 15 seconds, for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage 1 of your spells instantly recharges. Spells with recharge time less than 5 seconds do not consume uses of this skill. Each spell can be recharged one time.

vitorvdp_68 · May 15, 2011, 12:38 PM // 12:38

I'm going to lay this out nice and easy for anyone that is too selfish to acknowledge it.
Let's say that with a certain class (or team), you have 5 types of builds to run, INCLUDING AP.
You can run any of them, it's your choice. Nothing is stopping you from using the other 4 builds that aren't AP. If you think AP is more fun, good for you, you use it. If you think AP is not fun, you can run any of the other 4 classes. And here is the catch.
If you nerf AP, it does NOT make ANY of the other builds stronger.

All it means is that as a player, you have one less choice of build to run.
So you ask yourself. Is it going to make the game more fun for YOU if a build that you don't even use gets nerfed? I don't see how.

If you use the build but still think it's OP / unfair, take the initiative to try out different stuff yourself. It is very fun to come up with different builds for mission/vanquishes, as I have done so quite a few times, especially with the ability to use 7 (SEVEN!) customizable heroes in your party.
If you nerf it, it only affects the people that want to use it, negatively.

cthulhu reborn · May 15, 2011, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Deals_

/not signed,

if you're talking about nerfing AP why not nerf SoS, since even like AP, SoS is used by other caster classes besides ritualist, what about putting AP under Critical Strikes so no one besides assassins can get it above 4(with the help of lots of p-cons)..but of course rework the skill and give it some XX% damage along with the energy gain when foe dies. It's 5 years into factions, i don't think it's really going to matter now..and i don't really see anyone using it anymore anyways since everyone and there mother uses SoS because of Spirit Walls, AP is a good spike if you use, spirit-way bars on heros and you don't need to run SoS yourself.

SoS should also be nerfed. In the end it probably would be better if the most useful or powerful skills fall under the primary attribute, so I agree with you there.

As soon as a skill becomes commonplace amongst other places, you've got to wonder about that. I understand it for ress skills or speed boosts but beyond that dual classing has created a lot of monsters.

vitorvdp_68 · May 15, 2011, 12:58 PM // 12:58

I guess that's the point of being able to carry a secondary class...

Miteshu · May 15, 2011, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

You want to talk about having fun? Having one build that dominates all others for a given profession is not fun - it kills build diversity for that profession. A large part of this game is the fact that their are countless skills and countless skill combinations, and being limited by the fact that one combination of skills (most of which arn't even elementalist) completely dominate all other builds is counter to having a variety of equally viable builds. What I am trying to say is that the fact that one build dominates all other builds for a single profession (note that i am talking about offensive builds here, obviously eles can also ER), is not fun at all.

Nah, how about buff other skills instead?

I rather not have my VQ drag way too long. It is boring, we meet the same enemies. Then kill the same group again.

Then if we nerf all damaging skills, how do we kill monk bosses? They heal way too fast and too much. Some of their heals have a short recharge/cast time to make interrupts worthless.

vitorvdp_68 · May 15, 2011, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miteshu

Nah, how about buff other skills instead?

I rather not have my VQ drag way too long. It is boring, we meet the same enemies. Then kill the same group again.

Then if we nerf all damaging skills, how do we kill monk bosses? They heal way too fast and too much. Some of their heals have a short recharge/cast time to make interrupts worthless.

You really aren't helping. Have you heard of Backfire, Scourge Healing, Migraine, knockdowns, Diversion?