Curse

Urcscumug · Jun 19, 2011, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Here's a crazy idea: revert the nerfs to the paragon. But add a gimmick that nerfs skills with the more paras you have in the team.

Say, increase their recharge or activation times as many times as paras you have. Got a 10s recharge? Bam, for 2 paras it's now 20s. Got 3? 30 seconds. You get the idea.

Could even build a reverse scale effect into one of the attribute lines, such as Leadership, and chuck it down to "having too many 'leaders' on the team at the same time". Eg. you start with +1x recharge time per extra para in the team at zero spec but it tapers off to +0.5x as you raise Leadership to 20.

Obviously, getting a high spec in Leadership should not be enough to really make multi-para teams viable. Maybe just 2 paras, barely (but I think even that might be overpowered).

Because the way I see it, everybody seems to have loved the pre-nerf para, but when you get many of them together they really screw up both PvE and PvP. Fine, then, make it so they can't get together.

This could also hurt NPC teams that have multiple paragons in them, but that can be easily countered with a monster skill.

Olle · Jun 19, 2011, 10:14 PM // 22:14

No, no no.
Paras need an rework on most skills.but your suggestion is just awful and will never work
you cant punish someone for being more than one in one team.

Urcscumug · Jun 19, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajusbonus

you cant punish someone for being more than one in one team.

You can if you're the programmer for the game.

They invented the flash enchantment specifically for the derv rework, a similar gimmick for the para is not out of the question.

We, as players, are used to thinking inside the box in regard to game mechanics, but we forget that ANet can alter them if they wanna.

But your reaction does bring another problem to mind, the issue of people who bought merc slots and cannot use them with paras anymore. That would be some major QQ (not that I sympathise with it.

)

Kanyatta · Jun 19, 2011, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I'd like to see Paras reworked into the metagame, but your "but nerf this to make it balanced" suggestion I don't feel would work.

There's never been a game mechanic that punishes one player because of the way his party is set up. I've seen suggestions to make PvE only skills that are like "Your entire team sacrifices 10% health and deals X damage to all foes in target area" or whatever, but that just won't happen. I don't think we'll ever see a game mechanic where Billy has a negative effect on his health bar or skill recharge just because Joe is in his party or has a certain skill. The game is based more around player independence and bringing your own build.

wilebill · Jun 19, 2011, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Urc, similar suggestions have been made dating back to the beginning of Nightfall, maybe for all classes even earlier than that.

A negative buff penalty for multiple characters of the same type, or simply not permitting multiple characters of the same type in a PvP party. Hard to implement and players do not seem to like the idea. Random parties in low end PvP would take extra time to form. Then too, sometimes you do want two monks or warriors so this would have to apply only to Paragons and perhaps a couple other classes.

At this late stage of the game, probably not worth doing much. All becomes a non issue in GW 2.

Lanier · Jun 20, 2011, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

At this late stage of the game, probably not worth doing much. All becomes a non issue in GW 2.

Fixing paragons totally is worth doing. Being a six year old game is no justification not to help a class that has been in a state of disrepair for such a long amount of time.

That said, the OP's idea isn't really a good one. First, there are several good ideas floating around the paragon forum and that have floated around sardelac for the past month or two, so im not sure why this was really suggested in the first place. Second, simply reverting previous nerfs wont help paragons enough - ritualists and necromancers are simply far better at support than pre-nerf paragons. Third, classes shouldn't be punished for having multiple of one in a party, and parties with multiple paragons arn't even that powerful anyway.

What paragons need are some minor reworks to the useless shouts and leadership skills and to most of the chants, in addition to recharge reductions for those few chants that are useful with their current functionality. A change to refrains would also be nice (maybe make then maintainable, like monk enchantments, except with a unique and different downside instead of the -1 energy regen).

Pistachio · Jun 20, 2011, 04:25 AM // 04:25

This would severely limit an already underplayed class. If anything, the opposite should be true, like having some beneficial synergy with multiple paragons.

greep · Jun 20, 2011, 06:08 AM // 06:08

I used to think paragons should be reworked, but honestly they should just stay dead. Their whole concept is poorly though out, their whole design only reinforces gimmicks. They stack defense making spikes prevail, or they reinforce melees, further supporting triple melee builds. There's just too much to change to make them work, it'd be better if anet focused on the easier to balance stuff that they're ignoring.

dasmitchies · Jun 20, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

The game mechanic you are suggesting is a massive coding rework. I guarantee it would glitch waaaaaaay too much. Besides, the reason Paragons were overpowered was they were designed to be the best cooperative class. Reworking that mechanic to cripple Paragons is akin to removing healing from Monks. Paragons would become crippled Warriors. The only real way to redo the class would be to revert recharge times to before the nerfbat swung for PVE only. Paragons were killed in PVP for a reason, they break the game.

HellScreamS · Jun 20, 2011, 07:06 AM // 07:06

so basically this thread is suggesting there's still stuff that can be nerfed about paragons, the most underpowered class in gw there is at the moment.

Urcscumug · Jun 20, 2011, 12:50 PM // 12:50

@HellScreamS, Pistachio: please read more carefuly. I don't want the gimmick applied to the current para skills. A nerf on top of the current nerf would make no sense. I want this gimmick applied in return for bringing back the pre-nerf skills.

Guys, this trick would let us actually enjoy playing a para again, both in PvE and PvP. At the cost of having only one or perhaps two max per team at the same time. Is that such a horrible condition? I know I'd gladly accept if it meant I get to play and enjoy a para properly. Granted, I'm biased; if they had decent skills they'd be my favorite GW profession.

Anyway, I'm glad to see a wide variety of criticism so far. Allow me to respond:

* "Never done before", "won't happen", "you just can't do that." These are personal opinions, not criticism of the idea, so I'm afraid I can't really answer them.

* "Massive coding rework." I don't think we can say that for sure without actually seeing the GW code.

But let's think logically about this: Fast Casting is an attribute rank which affects skill recharge and cast time for all the Mesmer skills. So that part is already done. The only new thing is checking one more condition, the number of alive/in-range primary or secondary paras among the allies. I don't think that's such a massive job. (That's an educated guess, btw.)

* "The entire concept was dead on arrival." I beg to differ. Ranged attacks and high durability makes them among the least appetising for foes, so they can be among the last standing; the party-wide abilities and their mid-line spot is perfect for the role of team leader, moreso than any of the other professions.

* "Rits and necros are better at support anyway." They are. But it's different kinds of support. I'm sure we can all think of gaps in what the rits and necros can do, which could be covered by paras.

* "Harder to join/form PUGs". As opposed to "run imbagon or you're out" as it currently stands? Hmm.

* Sure, it would eliminate certain team builds such as racway. But so what? A dozen more would appear in their place.

Reverend Dr · Jun 20, 2011, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Paragons just don't fit into the PvE meta of "group everything up and then blow it up with AoE" (outside of running imbagon as support). Excessive buffing of current skills (or reversals of nerfed skills) without a redesign won't change this. It is not an indication of an underpowered class, but a symptom of boring stale PvE design.

Paragons in PvP. When Paragons are not in PvP meta, [some] people say they want them back in. When Paragons are in the PvP meta, just about everyone would rather them not be.

Lanier · Jun 20, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by greep

I used to think paragons should be reworked, but honestly they should just stay dead. Their whole concept is poorly though out, their whole design only reinforces gimmicks. They stack defense making spikes prevail, or they reinforce melees, further supporting triple melee builds. There's just too much to change to make them work, it'd be better if anet focused on the easier to balance stuff that they're ignoring.

Please tell me you're just talking about PvP. No class in PvE should just "stay dead" since people can't simply reroll their PvE characters.

Quote:

Paragons just don't fit into the PvE meta of "group everything up and then blow it up with AoE" (outside of running imbagon as support). Excessive buffing of current skills (or reversals of nerfed skills) without a redesign won't change this. It is not an indication of an underpowered class, but a symptom of boring stale PvE design.

That is only a very small portion of the PvE meta (the speed clear portion).

Urcscumug · Jun 20, 2011, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Paragons just don't fit into the PvE meta of "group everything up and then blow it up with AoE" (outside of running imbagon as support).

What's wrong with running a char purely for support? That's not meta you're describing, it's an noob trend. I'm hoping seasoned players see the value in having some classes specialize in support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When Paragons are not in PvP meta, [some] people say they want them back in. When Paragons are in the PvP meta, just about everyone would rather them not be.

Simple solution: forbid paragons from PvP.

Thank you, I'll be here all week! o/

PS: I'm only half joking.

HigherMinion · Jun 20, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Paragon are party-support characters; nerfing them as the para

layer ratio rises in the team is silly.

Ximvotn · Jun 20, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

This suggestion sounds like there being too many necros on a team so you split the soul reaping energy return.

AndrewSX · Jun 20, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I've heard paragon were nerfed for a reason. Expecially in pvp.
But, even if your suggestion is terrible, i see your point....bring back the para to light of the sun, but fix the issues that created the situation that leaded to the nerf. How do it, and the pve/pvp impact, is another question.

P.S: Btw, have you heard what are the next (rumored) buff/changes? Smite and Moti lines.
Both nerfed to ground for pvp reason, seems anet will bring them back with needed changes. Wait and hope i guess (admitted that rumors aren't false obviously).

Reverend Dr · Jun 20, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

What's wrong with running a char purely for support? That's not meta you're describing, it's an noob trend. I'm hoping seasoned players see the value in having some classes specialize in support.

Why? Why would you do that when all it takes to roll through PvE is damage, and bringing more damage instead of support makes it roll faster?

The point I was trying to make is that it isn't a simple issue of "nerf/buff" the paragon class or any other class.

Kanyatta · Jun 20, 2011, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

What's wrong with running a char purely for support? That's not meta you're describing, it's an noob trend. I'm hoping seasoned players see the value in having some classes specialize in support.

The reason you don't run support characters in PvE is that it only slows you down. All you need to roll through PvE is have 15-25% of your party be healing, and the other 75-85% be as much damage as humanly possible.

If you want to bring a Paragon for attack buffs and spear damage, you're better off bringing a melee class of pure damage. If you want to bring a Paragon for defense buffs/healing/blocking, you're better off bringing a monk or ritualist.

The only way to make Paragons metagame again is to make them ridiculously overpowered (i.e., bring back old Incoming, Defensive Anthem, Song of Restoration, Song or Purification). The only way it could work is to not change anything for PvP, or only give it the most minor buffs, and to just make it totally overpowered for PvE, since pretty much everything in PvE is already overpowered beyond belief.

NerfHerder · Jun 21, 2011, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

The reason you don't run support characters in PvE is that it only slows you down.

Yes because my Orders toon/SoH slows down my physical way.

Support can be helpful for added DPS. But, the Paragon currently cant do much to help in that regard. So I'm all for buffing the Paragons DPS buffing abilities and even Motivation line for PvE.

Penalizing Paragons for having more than one in a party is totally the wrong direction. The Paragon has two things going for it. Imbagon and Racway. We shouldnt destroy the only two things the Paragon can do. We should give them more roles, not less.

And saying that the Paragon should stay dead in PvP shows a clear lack of imagination and inability to cope with change. I can understand a lack of faith in ANets ability to balance the Paragon in PvP, but to stay it shouldnt exist is absurd.