Curse

chuckles79 · Jun 28, 2011, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Spare me the "you can faceroll PvE HM already, why make it easier!" comments.

Seriously, you can reach any other part of the game with 8 players with minimal fuss but getting 8 heroes deep into the jungle on a caravan VQ is at best problematic and at worst an exercise in self-flagellation.

I'm the first one to champion the idea that this game doesn't need to be made easier however there are two mitigating factors to this idea:

1. Maguuma Stade is so remote that many most people don't even have it on their maps unless they are going for cartographer.

2. It's on the other end of the jungle if you will, meaning that it's still a hike to get to remote locations in the jungle.

Just one of those little things that I wouldn't mind seeing.

Maya Cerestiez · Jun 29, 2011, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Mobs aren't as big down there as in 8man areas. I like the fact that we vq with 6man and even 4man for some areas. We can use other team builds than the usual 7heroes and whatever.

It's better to keep mob sizes rather than increase party to 8 and add more enemies.

The Guildless · Jun 29, 2011, 04:37 AM // 04:37

I was actually VQing around Maguuma Stade earlier today, nice coincidence. As Maya said, the mobs aren't that big, so would you suggest adding more enemies too? I find it well balanced as it is, so if I'd up party size, I'd put bigger mobs too, otherwise as you said it'd be quite the ride in the park. Sad though that the jungle is isolated from 8-man outposts. So is this a matter of difficulty, comfort, or being able to hang out with seven buddies?

Mordiego · Jun 29, 2011, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

"you can faceroll PvE HM already, why make it easier!"

Pretty much your own comment. How much whining can this site take?

chuckles79 · Jun 29, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Guildless

I was actually VQing around Maguuma Stade earlier today, nice coincidence. As Maya said, the mobs aren't that big, so would you suggest adding more enemies too? I find it well balanced as it is, so if I'd up party size, I'd put bigger mobs too, otherwise as you said it'd be quite the ride in the park. Sad though that the jungle is isolated from 8-man outposts. So is this a matter of difficulty, comfort, or being able to hang out with seven buddies?

comfort and/or buddies.

You have a point about the size of mobs, but I wasn't talking about VQ'ing tangle root as much as I am about the greater area.
I'm thinking about the 15,000 popups in Ettin's Back and the fact that it's a huge grind with little reward beyond title progression.
Let me put it this way, I decided to caravan VQ from Yak's through most of Ascalon one time and another time I did most of Western Kryta (non Maguuma) from ToA and it was genuinely fun.
There was still some challenge, but I didn't feel like I had to white knuckle my way through it.

Given that the Plains of Jarin is the only location in Nightfall that can't be VQ'd with 8 players, and everywhere outside of noobie island in Factions has 8; that it's a long grind through the jungle.
Also considering that Maguuma Stade has no other purpose in the game...

I'm just throwing it out there and don't expect it to happen. I just genuinely hate that area of the game, with all the popups I think it would mitigate grind.

Remember, the area has 11 different explorable areas. It's the largest region in the game and considering that every 2 feet you popup scarabs, spiders, or devourers; it really is a pain.

To Chicken To Die · Jun 29, 2011, 08:06 PM // 20:06

you can faceroll PvE HM already, why make it easier!

/thread

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 29, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I'm thinking about the 15,000 popups in Ettin's Back and the fact that it's a huge grind with little reward beyond title progression.

I only hit 199 foes when I vanquished Ettin's Back. The bit about "hug grind/little reward" can be applied to all vanquishing, if that's your opinion.

Quote:

Remember, the area has 11 different explorable areas. It's the largest region in the game and considering that every 2 feet you popup scarabs, spiders, or devourers; it really is a pain.

Ever been to the Crystal Desert?

chuckles79 · Jun 29, 2011, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

you can faceroll PvE HM already, why make it easier!

/thread

Did you even read the first sentence of the thread or did you just repost because you think it's cool?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

I only hit 199 foes when I vanquished Ettin's Back. The bit about "hug grind/little reward" can be applied to all vanquishing, if that's your opinion.

Ever been to the Crystal Desert?

The grind in Maguuma is a bit different. Easy to lose your way, many more popups than other areas, and it's 11 different explorables..

Crystal Desert is 7 explorables, a lot more open terrain and easy to navigate, and is accessible to 8 heroes via Crystal Overlook in NF. Additionally, the main campaign progression takes you around the desert in NM and 6 players is what the campaign was written for (think secondary profession quests).

With the exception of the hike from Silverwood to Ventauri's, then Aurora Glade, there is no logical quest progression in the main campaign that takes you through the Maguuma Jungle. No secondary quests will ever take you to Stade either.

In goes in hand with the theory I've held for a long time now that ANet originally had bigger plans for the jungle area and ran out of time in developing them. Why else is Denravi the largest outpost by far but with only one quest (no secondaries except Defend Denravi Titan Quest) starting from there?

jazilla · Jun 29, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13

While I agree that Maguuma Stade is out of the way, with the ability to take 5 heroes out there in HM, I don't see the need. *Uses old man voice* Back in my day we had to bring whoever wanted to VQ those areas and most of the time that meant taking people that wanted a VQ done on a character that wasn't even their primary.

Urcscumug · Jun 29, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

It just seems a bit backwards. Vanquishing and hard mode were a gimmick, an afterthought implemented to keep players interested after the normal game. Have the original altered for the purpose of a little more convenience in a late game gimmick?

To Chicken To Die · Jun 29, 2011, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Did you even read the first sentence of the thread or did you just repost because you think it's cool?

I need more then one facepalm for this

Ximvotn · Jun 29, 2011, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordiego

Pretty much your own comment. How much whining can this site take?

When the servers crash we'll know for sure. If I understand correctly the OP is starting from a place that allows 8 people and vanquishing through every zone that you can only leave the nearest outpost with 6? If that's right then I don't know what to say, 6 is fine with me because I know I'll bring armor and grails for jungle vanquishes. I guess make sure you're heroes are well thought out and can counter or defend against anything you can come up against. I don't think ArenaNet has plans to change any of the outpost's party size anytime soon. Also, go AFK, grab something to eat and drink (with heroes). If the vanquish takes four hours, so be it.

Master Ketsu · Jun 30, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

you can faceroll PvE HM already, why make it easier!

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 30, 2011, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

The grind in Maguuma is a bit different. Easy to lose your way, many more popups than other areas, and it's 11 different explorables.

I'll give you the "easy to lose your way" point. As for Pop-ups, I think it's a toss-up between there and the desert. And there are only 9 explorable areas in the Jungle, not 11.

Majesty's Rest - not far from ToA, so an 8-person party isn't out of the question and you only have to cover half the area to Vanquish it - with a decent team it takes about 20 minutes to do (Including the fight with Rotscale). Mapping the rest can be done in NM.

Sage Lands, Silverwood, Ettin's Back and Tangle Root - an 8-person team isn't going to change the layout. Pre-planning your route is the key to cutting down the grind. (All doable in 45-50 minutes, with mapping)

Mamnoon Lagoon - 50 - 60 enemies, just don't over aggro. Easy-Peasy, VQ & Mapped in 20 minutes.

Reed Bog - Easily done it 20 minutes on the way to The Falls.

The Falls - I can see why one would want an 8-person party to do this one, as the chances of an 8-person party wiping would be much lower than a 6-person party. Rezzing back at the entrance can be such a pain!

Dry Top - Another tiny area easily completed (VQ & map) in 15 - 20 minutes.

BogusDude · Jun 30, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

It just seems a bit backwards. Vanquishing and hard mode were a gimmick, an afterthought implemented to keep players interested after the normal game. Have the original altered for the purpose of a little more convenience in a late game gimmick?

I actually think your a million miles away from reality. When Nightfall was released it gave us a ridiculous amount of skills to choose from which made us overpowered in the old mode (which seemed slightly harder than NM but hard to judge when your using stronger builds). I think they acknowledged they would loose the playerbase if the game got too easy. we loved the new builds but HM gave us new challenges, better loot, titles, and motivation. you can call it a gimmick but that would just make every feature of the game a gimmick, not as though GW is the only game to introduce a HM. If its a gimmick its a welcomed gimmick, a gimmick in my eyes is pointless and adds nothing to the game, like costumes, HM was not a gimmick! I'm sure we'll find in GW2 that they've learnt their mistake in using so many skills and difficulty in balancing that came with it and we'll likely not get so many skills with new expansions and they'll likely follow the faction association. That said i wouldn't be against a HM in GW2, although it probably won't be needed if we're to be downgraded when we play in low level areas.

Vanquishing again didn't come until much later in the game, it wasn't something new, its something we used to do anyway as new players while exploring. They just turned something we did anyway into more of a challenge/job.

Remember GW was their first game, it went completely against the normal mmo in lots of way. In hindsight i'm sure they wish they could've added as many of the last 6 years updates on release. They had ideas for updates with links already within the game that never actually surfaced. They've learnt alot in the last 6 years about what worked or failed in GW and their competitors so we should expect a much more polished thought out game in gw2. Their biggest flaws for me have been failing to meet deadlines and some of the title formats, ie survivor was introduced just before factions as one of the first titles alongside cartographer, considering many of us already had our main chars and slots used up it should have been consecutive exp without dying from the start. Some titles should be obvious that they should be account based but again they were a bit slow on some of these. They should've recognised how flawed death levelling for LDoA was before they even made it a title, not to mention its just the wrong way to play a game, but i think they went a little too far with the new quests, i like em but the title is now far too easy

On topic, 8 players at Maguuma Stade? God knows how many people who've already completed it is enough to say its not needed. I'd rather see some team sizes reduced, for example i've never understood why Urgoz was a 12 man team other than to match the Deep, which it worked for, what with having to split at the start

Urcscumug · Jun 30, 2011, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ximvotn

When the servers crash we'll know for sure.

Aha, now we know why they crashed the other day!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogusDude

a gimmick in my eyes is pointless and adds nothing to the game, like costumes, HM was not a gimmick!

It is for me. It's promoting pure grind and nothing more. HM does nothing in terms of gameplay, its only purpose is to give better loot and facilitate getting extra titles.

Ghosst · Jun 30, 2011, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

You might get some titles just by playing the game (I got r1 Survivor the other day without meaning to do it) but the vast majority of titles require explicit grind of some form.

Lies!

I accidentally achieved Savior of the Kurzicks and didn't even notice until a month later.

/ontopic: 8 man would be "nice" in the Jungle for vanquishing but it's certainly not required. I did it with h/h before the 7-hero (5 hero in this area) update and it wasn't too bad. Of course I also had a massive lag spike while I was at the falls staring at a group of Wind Riders. I thought I was going to go German kid if I 007'd. Thankfully, my ping settled back down.

BogusDude · Jul 01, 2011, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

It is for me. It's promoting pure grind and nothing more. HM does nothing in terms of gameplay, its only purpose is to give better loot and facilitate getting extra titles.

I'm not sure how your trying to argue HM was a gimmick that didn't add any valued content, its a different experience to NM altogether, more so for new players. A handful of people on guru trolling over it doesn't reflect the majority of players. I enjoyed doing most of the HM stuff, i'm an avid farmer also and enjoy the variety i get from different farms in either mode. So what exactly do you want? They told us Nightfall was the last campaign when they announced GW2 and they'd give us EotN expansion as an introduction to GW2 ie the races and now they've started adding new quests that relate. I'm not sure we'dve survived without it. I'm getting seriously frustrated at the wait myself. I'd hate to ask what your opinion on the Z quests is lol your time would be better suited coming up with some good ideas for additional content, who knows maybe you'll get what you want (and let someone else complain about how pointless it was)

Urcscumug · Jul 05, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I consider new content to be EotN, WiK, BMP, WoC, the Galrath and Titans quests. HM by itself is just old content, rehashed with foes with more HP/armor/attributes. It see it promoting highly abnormal builds, grind, e-peen etc. I personally don't get any satisfaction out of doing HM/vanquish/Zaishen.

I understand that you do, and of course you can approach HM smartly, not just Discordway + C-space. But overall we're looking for very different things in this game. Me, when I'm bored of GW I close it and go do something else. Whereas you claim you depend on GW for "survival" (surely you exaggerate?) and describe yourself as an "avid grinder". Obviously, we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Leave it at that.

chuckles79 · Jul 05, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghosst

/ontopic: 8 man would be "nice" in the Jungle for vanquishing but it's certainly not required. I did it with h/h before the 7-hero (5 hero in this area) update and it wasn't too bad. Of course I also had a massive lag spike while I was at the falls staring at a group of Wind Riders. I thought I was going to go German kid if I 007'd. Thankfully, my ping settled back down.

I never said required. As I've said, Maguuma is a backwater as far as Prophecies is concerned. If they hadn't but Zinn's lab in the falls, most people would have forgotten that it even exists.
Which is the whole point, the only reason to go to Maguuma (outside of Prophecies quest progression) is to cartograph and VQ.
There are no cappable elites, there are no farms there, there is no GW:B content...nothing.

It's 9 explorable areas worth of mazes filled with condition spreading popups, and stance happy centaurs.

The worst part, is that it's not that challenging. You can't brag about VQing Dry Top.

It's very unsporting, but I want 8 players so I can make a day of it, and be done.