Curse

X Ninja Sasuke X · Aug 19, 2011, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I did. Seriously.
But i want to point out one main difference, since you've already invoked the elitism in PvE.

Being a random, unexperienced rookie, you can't join an UWSC pug, and the same is true for most SCs. Sure, it's totally understandable, and you pointed the similarities to pugging HA quite well.
But then...
You can at least roll UW with heroes and learn the whole topography. See the quests for yourself. You can go into NM UW alone and try to learn one of the roles (you can take heroes to clear the chamber for you easily). Then practice, by yourself, in HM. Heck, you can buy stones, if you're so desperate to get into groups and start actually playing rather than shouting in Temple for ages. Then you apply to SC guild, show them you have some roles mastered, and the train starts rolling.
And, first of all, you can roll pretty much anything else in PvE with a pug, especially with the rise of Embark Beach. If a mission or vanquish is listed as the day's Zaishen Challenge, it's quite easily puggable; some unoccupied spots, if its pugged late at night, can be filled with heroes.

The PvP side is different. You either join a randomised, casual, low-end PvP, or can't get into high-end, structured PvP because of 'no stones' to show. And, worst of all, RA (and, more so, JQ) is completely different than HA or GvG, maps included.
There's no way to learn, get better at or actually experience structured PvP without getting invited into structure (or, within the first two years of GW, creating it), contrary to PvE. It's a failure of design, but it's then made even more ridiculous by people.

AB is a kind of middle-ground - casual and easy-to-go format with a puggable party structure. But then, try to compare AB with HA...
Yeah, not worth it.

For instance:

when i started HA i got r3 pretty easily doing eoe bomb on a double weekend event. Even before that I was in a searing flames pug that won hall of heroes before I was even rank one. Sometimes there are some easy "flavor of the month team builds" and sometimes there are some nice events (like this weekend for ha!) double points... at r3 that's only 90 wins, and that's assuming you don't win more than 1 match.

After r3 there was a time when heroway was popular, I would be a caller on my sin for a r9 player named "flawless means what" a good player who is at least r12+ today. Now I was only r3 at the time, but he would let me play in his r6-9 groups, and then joined his guild, b/c he saw me play in a match-up and realized I was good. Granted this is a rarer case but he looked at the skill, not the rank.

Honestly you should have no problem making a low rank HA/gvg guild. I see them all the time recruiting in RA. Alot of casual pvp'ers wanting to become more hardcore start off in ra, make ra guilds, then branch off into ha and gvg later when they get bigger and more exp.

Missing HB · Aug 19, 2011, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Ninja Sasuke X

to become more hardcore start off in ra, make ra guilds

Starting a RA guild?? what ?

The format is random and besides, it's 4v4 anyway and you don't learn anything there useful for HA and furthermore GvG... What tactics do you learn in HA?? Almost none, it's just usually about abusing the map or the poor ghostly hero IA...

Swingline · Aug 19, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

RA guilds sole purpose is to abuse the syncing flaw and farm glad points for e-peen. Its nothing more.

jazilla · Aug 19, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

pvp elitism is a problem with the player base. i can't go to rodeo drive in beverly hills and make the rich ladies there less snobby. its the same with elitists.

*lemming* · Aug 19, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

With people like - amongst many, many others - Lemming, Urania and Reikai, is it really worth it?

I don't supposed you showed up to these, did you?

:\

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

What makes RA and JQ so popular, especially when compared to HA and GvG? Sure, it's much easier to 'master', but getting to high proficiency takes both time and effort, as well. There are cheesy gimmicks that everyone may take off from gwpvx... oh, wait.

Ludicrous comparison. Dervishes in the four months immediately following their rework were decried as being gamebreakingly simple to play, but even those have far higher skill floors and skill ceilings than JQ's gimmicks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I was sure sooner or later a PvPer will assume that it was my fault, this way or another; an assumption built pretty much on nothing. "New players usually" is as viable, or even less so, as my "in most PvP guilds". That very thing is the prejudice that killed your PvP format.

At least a few people from the Casual Division of the Guru Cup made the transition from PvEers to GvGers. Why did they succeed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Let me ask you though - have you, with your guild, ever opened recruitation for PvP scrubs, to actually give it a shot?

You'd be surprised how often people with relatively limited experience get to play in pugs, tbh. All that it takes is that you know someone.

superraptors · Aug 20, 2011, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You'd be surprised how often people with relatively limited experience get to play in pugs, tbh. All that it takes is that you know someone.

this, at least for HA this is true.

Missing HB · Aug 20, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Indeed... i've decided to play HA once for a long time... and the only thing we faced was 2 dervs 2 invoke eles mesmer rit and monks...
We fought wota sins once, but rest was only that boring and non-fun build.. played by all kind of ranks... so i actually quit PvP ,since i'm really having enough, until they do something about dervishs and invokes ( 2 builds that really require 0 skill to play and even less played together....)

The main problem really is that i would understand if those builds were made to help beginners to get higher rank ... but it seem that they still get facerolled by better teams using those builds too so....

Fate Crusher · Aug 20, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Indeed... i've decided to play HA once for a long time... and the only thing we faced was 2 dervs 2 invoke eles mesmer rit and monks...
We fought wota sins once, but rest was only that boring and non-fun build.. played by all kind of ranks... so i actually quit PvP ,since i'm really having enough, until they do something about dervishs and invokes ( 2 builds that really require 0 skill to play and even less played together....)

The main problem really is that i would understand if those builds were made to help beginners to get higher rank ... but it seem that they still get facerolled by better teams using those builds too so....

HA has always been about gimmicks, any possible way to one up your opponents on a consistent basis. It's why builds like EoE bomb, ViMway, Bspike, Sway, SF spike, BBway, and many other exploited builds (WoTU once ran a dual Experts Dexterity+Keen Arrow with a simple WS derv in 2007, it was so OP and Anet nerfed ED after 2 weeks or so), it even proves effective to bring Meteor Shower for epic cap points games.

Anyways, the best builds that were able to show that they were possible for low ranks but experienced players could take it a step further (in HA), were iway and balanced. And tbh, BOTH have been nerfed. MATH were able to show how high ranked players could take a farm build and hold halls with it. Balanced was always possible but the skill threshold was obviously higher, where you definitely reaped what you sowed.

The argument nowadays is whether present builds are worthy of your rank. BBway took this too far imo, fame hungry dead hour/s farmers created a space where lower teams could not compete. This is already during the time where HA's population was drastically falling, balanced guilds such as WoOm, WoTU, Sexy (only a few keep them alive <3), G0re, KvZ, lll, Dent - I could go on - died.

What did Anet do? Instead of reining in BBway or other exploitable area-controlling builds, they buffed Invoke into a crazy spike. Not only did they encourage new players to play a gamble, but they ultimately fed BBway, wota pressure and other exploits in the past 2 years. They are only adding to the massive power creep that they've created.

And to prove my point of the power creep - Triple weapons, Life, PwK, RC AND Healing Burst just to withstand pressure? k. Not to mention the fact that you only win games if your ranger/mesmer can shut down weapons. It's boring dawg.

The game just got too big for itself. Anet never bothered with how HA developed ever since they put it back to 8v8 all those years ago. This, in turn, has played on the minds of elitism within ranks.

Not to mention the fact that rank predominantly means experience, players are really looking out for others who understands builds and knows how to firstly do their job correctly, secondly to counter the other team accordingly and third, listen to team orders/vent/ts.

But even rank is not completely discriminated but more on your history of builds you've played in.
For example, even if a r12 PUG picked you up and you were r9, the moment you say you got your rank from PnH monk for BBway; you're out. Lets not mention a certain BB guild who needed an r15 to teach them how to position. This summer.

What I'm trying to, badly, explain is that you make it out as it is. I agree that rank discrimination is obviously apparent and should be addressed in some way, but why do you want to join a guild/party who judge people like that? If you're trying to garnish your rank to better show your skills, you're wasting your time only to please a few kids. Seriously.

I know what I'm saying may sound wrong, since the PvP population is next to zero compared to how it used to be, so finding a decent guild/group of people must be extremely hard now. But there are other people out there like you. Players who are new, who want to play PvP but are low ranked since us old faggots don't allow bambi kids in our teams. Forget us and make a new guild.

The rest, is down to Anet to fix their broken game. It really is. I want boon prots back.

urania · Aug 20, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

i want HA be turned into 5v5.

ha.

Lord Mip · Aug 20, 2011, 10:15 PM // 22:15

What about a randomized GvG arena like RA but with a kind of player-based ELO where players with lower ELO's are grouped with each other? Obviously, the matches there will be terrible tactics wise and the group setup might be a problem, but at least players get to see the maps and the importance of positioning, even in a really bad group. Maybe if players could queue in this arena as a certain 'Role' (i.e. Damage, Healing, Control) that would solve the group composition a little bit.

Or am I asking for too many new systems here?

Elfblade · Aug 20, 2011, 11:32 PM // 23:32

gvg is too objective based, it requires a lot of communication. getting 8 players organized in a live game with only using chat is a pain in the ass. i dont think gvg is something that can be made random.

Reverend Dr · Aug 21, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

In beta there was a random GvG.

It was appropriately removed.

superraptors · Aug 21, 2011, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

HA has always been about gimmicks, any possible way to one up your opponents on a consistent basis. It's why builds like EoE bomb, ViMway, Bspike, Sway, SF spike, BBway, and many other exploited builds (WoTU once ran a dual Experts Dexterity+Keen Arrow with a simple WS derv in 2007, it was so OP and Anet nerfed ED after 2 weeks or so), it even proves effective to bring Meteor Shower for epic cap points games.

Anyways, the best builds that were able to show that they were possible for low ranks but experienced players could take it a step further (in HA), were iway and balanced. And tbh, BOTH have been nerfed. MATH were able to show how high ranked players could take a farm build and hold halls with it. Balanced was always possible but the skill threshold was obviously higher, where you definitely reaped what you sowed.

The argument nowadays is whether present builds are worthy of your rank. BBway took this too far imo, fame hungry dead hour/s farmers created a space where lower teams could not compete. This is already during the time where HA's population was drastically falling, balanced guilds such as WoOm, WoTU, Sexy (only a few keep them alive <3), G0re, KvZ, lll, Dent - I could go on - died.

What did Anet do? Instead of reining in BBway or other exploitable area-controlling builds, they buffed Invoke into a crazy spike. Not only did they encourage new players to play a gamble, but they ultimately fed BBway, wota pressure and other exploits in the past 2 years. They are only adding to the massive power creep that they've created.

And to prove my point of the power creep - Triple weapons, Life, PwK, RC AND Healing Burst just to withstand pressure? k. Not to mention the fact that you only win games if your ranger/mesmer can shut down weapons. It's boring dawg.

The game just got too big for itself. Anet never bothered with how HA developed ever since they put it back to 8v8 all those years ago. This, in turn, has played on the minds of elitism within ranks.

Not to mention the fact that rank predominantly means experience, players are really looking out for others who understands builds and knows how to firstly do their job correctly, secondly to counter the other team accordingly and third, listen to team orders/vent/ts.

But even rank is not completely discriminated but more on your history of builds you've played in.
For example, even if a r12 PUG picked you up and you were r9, the moment you say you got your rank from PnH monk for BBway; you're out. Lets not mention a certain BB guild who needed an r15 to teach them how to position. This summer.

What I'm trying to, badly, explain is that you make it out as it is. I agree that rank discrimination is obviously apparent and should be addressed in some way, but why do you want to join a guild/party who judge people like that? If you're trying to garnish your rank to better show your skills, you're wasting your time only to please a few kids. Seriously.

I know what I'm saying may sound wrong, since the PvP population is next to zero compared to how it used to be, so finding a decent guild/group of people must be extremely hard now. But there are other people out there like you. Players who are new, who want to play PvP but are low ranked since us old faggots don't allow bambi kids in our teams. Forget us and make a new guild.

The rest, is down to Anet to fix their broken game. It really is. I want boon prots back.

most americans stopped playing post 2007 and thats also when many restarts started occuring, thats when euro guilds you listed dominated a dead ha in 2008 and onwards, nothing special.

lursey · Aug 21, 2011, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfblade

gvg is too objective based, it requires a lot of communication. getting 8 players organized in a live game with only using chat is a pain in the ass. i dont think gvg is something that can be made random.

I think JQ and FA have far more objectives than gvg

Fate Crusher · Aug 21, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

most americans stopped playing post 2007 and thats also when many restarts started occuring, thats when euro guilds you listed dominated a dead ha in 2008 and onwards, nothing special.

Well, gOre was Meatball's guild in 2005/6, Dent were before KvZ and KvZ were prime in 2007. I could mention all the euro guilds that were also not ballanced and still held (Boo, Ascalon, Apfel & co.)

I know many American guilds quit around 2007 which I agree it made it easier for said guilds, but it wasn't to the extent that there was a void of top end HA. There were never a large amount of skilled American HAers and those that were, played for Euro guilds and Euro friends lists.

Restarts wouldn't occur if 3/4 top American guilds stopped, only if a significant amount of players across all ranks stopped, which it did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

I think JQ and FA have far more objectives than gvg

There's a difference between pushing flag, territory, backdooring, map control, splitting, countering team builds compared to collecting 10 slabs or attack/defend.

The fact that you're comparing organised to unorganised PvP and weighting their objectives is funny.

EDIT: Elitism will always exist to an extent simply because there is no other way of visibly showing your skill unless a team takes blind faith in you. I mentioned that a rank still, at best, shows how much experience you have in that field of PvP. I think that's all it should represent. Unfortunately, the moment people get behind a keyboard, they are no longer nice and will bluntly deny anyone they feel is inferior.

lursey · Aug 21, 2011, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

There's a difference between pushing flag, territory, backdooring, map control, splitting, countering team builds compared to collecting 10 slabs or attack/defend.

The fact that you're comparing organised to unorganised PvP and weighting their objectives is funny.

EDIT: Elitism will always exist to an extent simply because there is no other way of visibly showing your skill unless a team takes blind faith in you. I mentioned that a rank still, at best, shows how much experience you have in that field of PvP. I think that's all it should represent. Unfortunately, the moment people get behind a keyboard, they are no longer nice and will bluntly deny anyone they feel is inferior.

you got me wrong that, I mean if FA/JQ/ab become organised, it has more objectives than gvg..or vice versa

Missing HB · Aug 21, 2011, 09:57 AM // 09:57

if FA and JQ get organized, we both know how joke it will be... Most will be mirror matchs with for example 5 roj monks and 3 normal monks

lursey · Aug 21, 2011, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

if FA and JQ get organized, we both know how joke it will be... Most will be mirror matchs with for example 5 roj monks and 3 normal monks

lol 5 roj? why...

do we have 5 roj in organised gvg?

Fate Crusher · Aug 21, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

I don't think organising FA/JQ will solve anything.

Missing is right, the choke points/cap points on both maps are begging for builds like 5 RoJ. If it becomes organised, it won't be serious.

Maybe 4 man organised FA/JQ, where two 4man teams would pair up, could have potential. But they should still allow Solo players to enter as well.

But again, it won't solve anything. Perhaps FA/JQ/AB is TOO objective based that it loses the e-sport feel, that it can never be taken seriously. The format is just too...

Eurgh, it's hard to explain why a low-end PvP arena can not breed better players by becoming organised. Oh wait, I just answered myself. It's low-end. The map was designed for encouraging choke points and catching low-end players in mismatched battles and also bring in NPCs and items.

GW2 seems to fix this because their PvP is 5v5 and less crowded, so the Battle for Kyhlo works since AoE has less of an effect. Not to mention less complicated battle mechanics.

lursey · Aug 21, 2011, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

But again, it won't solve anything. Perhaps FA/JQ/AB is TOO objective based that it loses the e-sport feel, that it can never be taken seriously. The format is just too...

lol

so wrong... dota has more objective than fa/jq/ab altogether, now they are doing a $1mil international tournament..

an arena become low end is from the time that it turned into random team...not because of its objective.

e-sport feel.. is about organised. not about the map objectives.

and choke point?..not just favor to roj.. but all aoe skills....which has long cast time and all prompt to interruption...