Curse

Jeydra · Aug 04, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I'm quite firmly against buffing Protection Prayers. There're some weak skills in Protection Prayers that could use a buff, such as Amity, but as a whole Protection Prayers is quite a strong line.

Some important points:

1. Protection Prayers has one of the most powerful party-wide defensive skills in the game aka. Aegis.
2. Single-target Protection spells can actually be stronger than party-wide spells, especially in a 7H environment. Shelter can die quickly, and there is no substitute for Shield of Absorption.
3. Again in a 7H environment, while ST Defensive Rits can keep up Shelter nicely, remember that by using an ST you are giving up on one of the strongest damage-dealing templates around, the SoGM offensive Rit (the SoS is even more powerful). In fact, regardless of whether or not you have mercenaries, the moment you use ST you are giving up on damage. This would be an issue if you really needed the extra defense, but there are very very few areas where I need to use Shelter.
4. AoE spells can decimate a party, thus giving the illusion that Shelter is way stronger than Protective Spirit. But that's only an illusion. You see, if you are taking enough AoE damage for Shelter to be superior then chances are you didn't manage aggro. In some sense therefore you deserve to wipe. Good players can usually manage with just Protective Spirit. As before, by using only Protective Spirit the good player can bring more powerful offensive templates and therefore do things faster.
5. Shelter does not work well with minions. And again, if you give up minions you are giving up also one of the most powerful hero templates around.

There are three Protection Prayers spells that are extremely powerful in PvE right now: Protective Spirit, Aegis and Shield of Absorption. Two of these are single-target, but if you use them well they're far stronger than using defensive spirits. Several other Protection Prayers spells are also very powerful: Spirit Bond and Protective Bond (hohoho ER Eles) especially. Protection Prayers does not need a general buff; in fact in the 7H environment Protection Prayers is already stronger than imbagons and Ritualist spirits.

Elfblade · Aug 04, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

I know you can hero it, but it's much slower and harder for many new players.

how ignorant do you plan to be, IT IS AN ELITE AREA/END GAME CONTENT. it is supposed to be hard/slow/difficult/frustrating for new players. Do you believe it should be more of a cake walk than it already is.

As fate crusher said you just continue your circle of repetitive arguments. IMBA and ST are Overpowered in other words not balanced or NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE. You agree with that even, now where we disagree is that protection prayers needs a buff, ill explain in simple points why not:

It is fine as it is (IE general consensus in this post) as it is designed to be coupled with skillful play to reach maximum yield not push buttons on recharge (IE IMBA and ST)
It is powercreep no matter how you buff it as protection prayers is if used with anything except Ether Renewal is balanced
You dont buff skills based on a single area of content or because there so much enchantment removal

LAST NOTE: New players should LEARN TO PLAY(not meant in an insulting way they should really just experience the game and learn from their failures) not be helped by some random buff to protection prayers. I dont think even ANET has the stupidity to buff protection prayers.

BTW: why dont you include WOC in your arguments as enchantments are pretty much useless due to the mass enchantment removals by soul explosions

ZephyLynx · Aug 04, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

There is another thing to consider, ST/Imba bars devote most of the bar to its purpose, while prot prayers are evaluated one skill at a time. Prot spirit only needs one skills (prot spirit), but shelter needs at least shelter, st, some kind of energy management, armor of unfeeling to extend its life, and preferably summon spirits. Imba requires an IAS, adrenaline multiplier, and SY!. For each prot prayers skill, the effect is much greater (on a single target) than ST/Imba. It just requires more thought, rather than button mash on recharge.

Another note, you mentioned that ST/Imba could redbar... What? (no, the 60 healing from TNtF! every 20 seconds does not really count). You mention that TNtF! can reduce all damage by 30% (which is good), but prot prayer skills are much stronger when used correctly. I run high specced prot, and if spirit bond triggers just 3 times, it's about a 300 heal. If it triggers all 10 times (which can happen easily in hm) its nearly a 1000 heal. Don't get me wrong, ST/Imba are strong builds and are easy to play, but a skilled prot monk (and a competent team) can be even more useful.

A lot of damage mitigation can actually come from play style and positioning. If your group chills in sand storm, that's not a case for ST/Imba being stronger than prot prayers, but rather a need for your team to learn positioning. A caster running in first to aggro is not a good idea. Good use of aggro technique can reduce the need of AoE damage reduction.

Our Virus · Aug 05, 2011, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Even if the majority of players would agree with OP, the update is 95% leaning towards never going to happen. Defense is defense, just use the better build and don't complain. Instead of waiting for an eternity for an update, just conform to what's best.

I would also like to know why exactly does it matter? Isn't beating the game with a Prot the same as beating it with ST/Imba? So prots can't sc, so? Its just PVE..

byteme! · Aug 06, 2011, 04:26 AM // 04:26

So I went through this thread and had a great laugh. However I think this thread is near the end anyways. The OP clearly has no clue at all and whatever ideas he/she may have are never ever going to be implemented. I had plans of writing a wall of text but then after reading through this entire thread I realized I'd be wasting more time then I already am because it's clearly not getting through to the OP so to finish...

@OP - Can I try some of that stuff you're smoking because it seems like it really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs you up.

MithranArkanere · Aug 06, 2011, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Maybe in PvE, but my position when it comes to 'passive defense' in competitive gameplay will never change.
It must be minimal.
One example to illustrate that is a katana swordfight vs a fight with heavily armored opponents.
The outcome will be the same, two fight, one wins and one lose, or they draw.
The main difference is that the fight with the heavily armored guys is sluggish, takes way longer, and waaay more boring.
Defense in competitive gameplay should come from offensive means, like the ones they have in TF2: Cover fire from the heavy, pipebomb traps from the demoman and turrets from the Engineer.
If you cast a Savannah heat on an enemy and they interrupt their casting at you allies to move away, that's defense too.,

Anyways, when it comes to PvE, I only find two problems with protection prayers:
1. Heroes are way more effective than players using protection prayers skill most of the time. They react in server time and see all health bars even before players see them. A player protector getting a lag hit main mean a wipe, but a player getting a lag hit who has a hero protector can easily survive the lag hit. This could be addressed with some more changes like the one done to Shield Guardian, but will never be fully fixed, since connections are not perfect.
2. Frakking Emo bonders. An elementalist being better than a monk using a build like that one is an insult to both monks and elementalists. How to fix it? Making elementalists better with their own skills would help a little. And frankly, I wouldn't mind having Ether renewal changed so it gives health with any spell, but energy only with elementalist spells. I don't care how many people may think otherwise, and I'm glad GW2 is losing secondary professions so it doesn't happen again.

Swingline · Aug 06, 2011, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I'm glad GW2 is losing secondary professions so it doesn't happen again.

Many people including myself saw this coming when someone from arena net said that secondary professions became broken.

Protection prayers is actually on par with healing prayers, it just takes more experience to use prot in pve. As for the whole DoA argument... back when DoA first came out I cleared it with a prot monk but no one is willing to try or use different builds today because of tards running DwG and the shit SC meta, everyone also assumes if your on a monk and not running healing your a scrub and boot you from the group.

Almost every skill in game has a niche somewhere in the game but prot prayers is far from having a niche because it is good in pve but completely shines in pvp.

Healing prayers has always been the star of the monk lines but prot can more than enough rise to the occasion and outshine healing, you just need to look beyond DoA.

Xenomortis · Aug 06, 2011, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

One example to illustrate that is a katana swordfight vs a fight with heavily armored opponents.
The outcome will be the same, two fight, one wins and one lose, or they draw.
The main difference is that the fight with the heavily armored guys is sluggish, takes way longer, and waaay more boring.

Eugh.
A fight between unamoured opponents with weapons that can very easily kill will be anything but fast paced and exciting. If anything, the armoured opponents will be willing to take larger risks.
See old-style fencing and dueling versus modern day competitive fencing.
The risks in a duel are very high; it's very easy to get hit and the costs of that are potentially extreme resulting in a very slow pace. This strongly contrasts with competitive fencing where the only cost is your opponent scoring a point and in Foil and Sabre (two of the three fencing weapons) they may not even get that; in fact, Epee (the third) is the slowest weapon precisely because getting hit will result in your opponent scoring!

Now in Guild Wars, the result of taking damage is generally low, we have healing, but result of deaths can be quite high. So we take steps to minimise those risks in the form of strong defense of any form. At this abstract level, there is no difference between the more active defense like an interrupt gives or even something like Reversal of Fortune and the more passive Shelter or Defensive Anthem.
If shutdown were taken to the extremes then matches wouldn't be significantly more interesting; nothing much would happen. Interrupts however, have the added offensive dimension as well as having a defensive role; they can both help kill and keep people alive and so when added into a balanced mixed can make for more interesting play.

Regarding your other two points:
A hero is better at prot than a bad player. To be honest I find a reasonable standard to be 'a player is bad at something if a hero does his job better' with the exception of spamming interrupts.
The ER guys have a couple of strong prots and a very strong single target heal and nothing else. Now what they can do with that is still a little unfair; being able to spam some of the strongest prots in the game with impunity whilst getting the strongest single target heal in the game is a little unfair; it doesn't make the Monk useless even with Protection Prayers. Hell, even a WoH Hybrid bar has more utility than a ER bar, just less raw power but with a good team, you don't need that power so the extra utility might come in handy.

Terrible Surgeon · Aug 19, 2011, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

Yes I know experienced player can run these fine, but for new players it can bring some difficulty.

Protection Prayer's problem is pretty simple, most of its skills are single targeted rather than affect the whole group, change some of it to group affecting will be nice.

So dumby down the game and give you shiny rewards for having no skill...makes sense.

/not signed

you want party heals run a rit or imba

chuckles79 · Aug 23, 2011, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I can't help but think that the OP is simply upset that he has to use the same two builds all the time, nvm that those builds are very welcome in DoA, the only area where ST rits and imbas are popular.

Nerfing the only usable build for paras, or a very vulnerable and limited build for rits is kinda overkill and pointless.

I do see value in nerfing Emo bonders though.
Make Intesity cause all enemies attacked by the skill to lose 15% of their speed and nuking is back in style.

Reverend Dr · Aug 24, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

everyone also assumes if your on a monk and not running healing your a scrub and boot you from the group.

With just healing monks the life bars will jump all over the place, but they can see this.

With good prot the bars go down slower, or don't go down, omfg scrub DO SOMETHING!

It actually takes a very high level of awareness about the game to be able to see when a prot is doing a good job, an amazing job, a tolerable job, or a terrible job. Unsurprisingly those lacking this awareness don't care about this kind of distinction when there exists overpowered red bar builds that make the distinction near irrelevant.

Xenomortis · Aug 25, 2011, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I can't think of a single healing build that makes good protection irrelevant. I can think of many other things that make good use of prot prayers irrelevant, but healing isn't one of them.

Reverend Dr · Aug 25, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Unfortunately PvE is not about doing your best, but about getting over a bar. If a couple of heal monks can get over that bar, it doesn't matter if a "good" prot can clear the bar by an extra 10 feet; the end result is that you all got over the bar, which is the only metric for 'success.'

Aside from that, it should be plainly clear that pushing red bars up is far easier than effectively protting. If you don't have a high level of awareness, then you will neither know how (theory not just reflexes) or be able to discern effective protting. I mean we're talking about pugs. How many of them are particularly adept at the whole game and how many of them just regurgitate some build that they copied and hold as absolute cannon?

Xenomortis · Aug 25, 2011, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Unfortunately PvE is not about doing your best, but about getting over a bar. If a couple of heal monks can get over that bar, it doesn't matter if a "good" prot can clear the bar by an extra 10 feet; the end result is that you all got over the bar, which is the only metric for 'success.'

There are times when two heal monks alone cannot get over that bar.
And there are also times when I would like to be able to succeed in less than the hour or two it can take pugs, particularly if they choose to only bring heals without any meaningful protection or equivalent.

Reverend Dr · Aug 26, 2011, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

There are times when two heal monks alone cannot get over that bar.

I dunno about that.

Also prot's lack of synergy with Save Yourself combined with most Pug's having such a hard on for that skill. Sure you can play a build that requires far more awareness and ability, or the warrior, or sin, or derv, or paragon can just spam this one button everytime it lights up.

I'm not trying to say that prot is bad or anything (it isn't), its just that with all of the other overpowered garbage, there isn't much of a reason to run it other than self-satisfaction.

Xenomortis · Aug 27, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Also prot's lack of synergy with Save Yourself combined with most Pug's having such a hard on for that skill. Sure you can play a build that requires far more awareness and ability, or the warrior, or sin, or derv, or paragon can just spam this one button everytime it lights up.

Save Yourselves is one of those things that can make good use of protection prayers irrelevant, yes. That combined with two heal monks will get you through most of the game.

My point is not that protection prayers is necessary, but that healing alone will not suffice; you need some other form or prevention, be it SY, Prot, Spirits, Minion walls or SF tanking (tons of disruption too I suppose). If you're not convinced then take a pug through Forgewight HM the next time it comes up as the ZQuest with two heal monks and without any of the above. If you succeed in less than 90 minutes I'll be surprised and if you do it within 40 minutes I'll concede.