Curse

Mexay · Aug 20, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Ok, so as the title says I have come up with a very very simple solution to people getting 17 - 45 minute runs in what is supposed to be one of the hardest areas in the game.

To start off, I am a FoWSCer myself, so don't tell me that it's an outside opinion and that I don't care about that area of the game or whatever. I usually run VoS, so I am well aware of the roles around the main team, although I'm fairly familiar with T1 and T2 (although I never play those roles).

The biggest problem with FoWSC at the moment is probably the fact that the current meta does things SO quickly (you're AVAERAGE pug run goes from 25 - 45 minutes) that it means the amount of money made is just crazy, which means inflation, which means new players can't buy stuff, which means that less people play and the community dies more, this you all know.

Now onto my solution;

Currently what is causing these insanely fast times is Terraway and the fact that the main team can literally spike down about 30 foes in 1 - 5 seconds. The cause of this is enchantments. Everything about Terraway has enchantments at it's core. Let's take a look;

UA: You're monk. They use an upkeep enchantment as it's elite skill. It is used to res people fast, thus decreasing the time of a run when compared to bringing say Rebirth or something
VoS: The half of core build (VoS, Sand Shards, Staggering Force) is enchantments.
100b: No needed enchants here.
MoP: Same applies to 100b
EoE: Same as above

Now you have your main tank and terras...

Shadow form, this whole skill is what makes UW and FoW so easy. Enemies can't cast on you and you have damage reduction. Now I'm not going to say to nerf the skill, because in most areas, it's not too bad.

Now, here is the solution:
Order of Apostasy
Elite Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members (5 seconds). These party members remove one enchantment when they deal physical damage. Removal cost: for each Monk enchantment, you lose 25...17...15% maximum Health.

All we need to do to break the main team or at least slow it down is to add this skill onto shadow beasts and remove their other skill.

Then we just need to add a few more of them in the other mobs and add a necromancer to the skeletal groups with this skill. This SHOULD slow down the meta, maybe even break it down.

It's as simple as that. The problem is not SF itself, but the fact that nothing COUNTERS it effectively.

What do you think?

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Elnino · Aug 20, 2011, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Looks more like a band-aid solution that's not really gonna fix anything.

Chthon · Aug 20, 2011, 04:11 AM // 04:11

How about implementing the correct fix for all of the SC BS plaguing GW -- nerf shadow form?

KZaske · Aug 20, 2011, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

How about implementing the correct fix for all of the SC BS plaguing GW -- nerf shadow form?

The live team has "ferfed" shadow form as much as they intend to. Shadow Form is the reason assassins are as popular as they are.

Lithril Ashwalker · Aug 20, 2011, 05:18 AM // 05:18

lol nerf it again?!?!, might as well take it out , its never nerfed enough for yall,
on the fowsc i say add Menzies. were long overdue for him anyway since Dhuum

Olle · Aug 20, 2011, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mexay

Ok, so as the title says I have come up with a very very simple solution to people getting 17 - 45 minute runs in what is supposed to be one of the hardest areas in the game.

To start off, I am a FoWSCer myself, so don't tell me that it's an outside opinion and that I don't care about that area of the game or whatever. I usually run VoS, so I am well aware of the roles around the main team, although I'm fairly familiar with T1 and T2 (although I never play those roles).

The biggest problem with FoWSC at the moment is probably the fact that the current meta does things SO quickly (you're AVAERAGE pug run goes from 25 - 45 minutes) that it means the amount of money made is just crazy, which means inflation, which means new players can't buy stuff, which means that less people play and the community dies more, this you all know.

I thought that more shards/items= cheaper prices..but oh well..
Now onto my solution;

Currently what is causing these insanely fast times is Terraway and the fact that the main team can literally spike down about 30 foes in 1 - 5 seconds. The cause of this is enchantments. Everything about Terraway has enchantments at it's core. Let's take a look;
You are mixing up UW-Terraway and FoW-Manlyway.

UA: You're monk. They use an upkeep enchantment as it's elite skill. It is used to res people fast, thus decreasing the time of a run when compared to bringing say Rebirth or something
VoS: The half of core build (VoS, Sand Shards, Staggering Force) is enchantments.
100b: No needed enchants here.
MoP: Same applies to 100b
EoE: Same as above

What i can see is 2 roles needing an enchantment, which one of them can be switched out, and the other one is because it resses.

Now you have your main tank and terras...

Shadow form, this whole skill is what makes UW and FoW so easy. Enemies can't cast on you and you have damage reduction. Now I'm not going to say to nerf the skill, because in most areas, it's not too bad.
OMG SF needs a nerf?
i never knew.
oh wait, he didnt want sf to be nerfed..

Now, here is the solution:
Order of Apostasy
Elite Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members (5 seconds). These party members remove one enchantment when they deal physical damage. Removal cost: for each Monk enchantment, you lose 25...17...15% maximum Health.

All we need to do to break the main team or at least slow it down is to add this skill onto shadow beasts and remove their other skill.

Then we just need to add a few more of them in the other mobs and add a necromancer to the skeletal groups with this skill. This SHOULD slow down the meta, maybe even break it down.

It's as simple as that. The problem is not SF itself, but the fact that nothing COUNTERS it effectively.

What do you think?

----------

First of, i am not flaming you.
But tbh, FoWsc doesnt need a nerf, FoW needs a buff!
Menzies, where is he? we got Dhuum, give us Menzies!
new foes, add in something like the skeleton, but a shadow beast instead(he could have remove enchants, but imo, it could turn out OP.)

Good post, though it doesnt solve FoWsc.

If anything is to be nerfed its the 17 min Zraw guild runs,because gems>shards.

KingCrab · Aug 20, 2011, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

on the fowsc i say add Menzies. were long overdue for him anyway since Dhuum

I like this idea. If the problem is that it's too quick, just toss a big boss battle in at the end. Everyone could come back to the forge for a fight instead of just parking the griffons and walking leisurely to the tower to collect.)

I'm not entirely sure a fix is needed though, as tons of cash can be made farming ectos solo, or in DoA with fast DwG builds, or in other ways as well.

Missing HB · Aug 20, 2011, 07:35 AM // 07:35

The only thing dhuum and skeletons did in UW was making it harder for normal teams however... it's not like it did anything for SC teams...

Besides, what's breaking everything is the conset combined with shadow form...But i'm pretty sure that people would still be ble to achieve stuff with no SF but with all bonus....You know as me OOA won't do anything on the long run

halfies · Aug 20, 2011, 08:31 AM // 08:31

im not sure why fowsc needs fixing tbh. ''fixing'' fow and not sf just means it would be a much harder step up for anyone wanting to get into SCing. also, i feel fairly certain that you could do this with no sf in ~40 mins with a decent team
also, fowsc doesnt make you that much money, compared to any other SC. even a failed uw as a a terra can net you more than a finished Fow quite easily. and any retard can get into fow easily, since with 200bs/VoS they can both be a little retarded and still spike, and the same goes for mop, ua and eoe. terras are a little harder but still by far the easiest SF sin roles in any SC

Millenium Warriorr · Aug 20, 2011, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Remove SF from the game...all happy.

Spiritz · Aug 20, 2011, 09:18 AM // 09:18

First time i ever seen a sc`er complain about sc`s.
I think im actually starting to tire of all the moans about shadowform - its been this way since the sf change which was funny - for a short while all the haters laughed then suddenly they saw it changed and then restarted to hate.
Why is it they always shout "nerf it , nerf it " ?
Because a number of players abuse certain skills the rest who use it properly get penalised.
Anet years ago made several changes to uw and why not like a few others suggested - change some skills on the foes or add something that will hinder sf users and other enchant users.
Uw like i said had many changes but i cant really think of any changes made to fow.
Why not add some nightmares with aoe removal but put in a group(s) who popup randomly - a bit like some of the bosses in shiverpeaks , give them all enchant strip and each group multiple possible spawn points.
OR set it so an enviromental affect that comes into play or put a timer or something that err - only 1 conset can be used in xx time but when players split they lose the conset boosts.
Sad thing is we can all come up with ideas which may work but we know they get inplemented for many reasons.

loshon · Aug 20, 2011, 09:40 AM // 09:40

No one uses physical on sub 17 runs. This means that the only people you're hurting are the ones who pug FoW and do Manlyway, which are responsible for the majority of FoW farming. Anyone who does sub 17 runs uses Mesway / DWGway / Arcway.

inb4 trolls, I'm not saying you can't do sub 17 minute runs using physway, I'm just saying that no one does.

JONO51 · Aug 20, 2011, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Every single time more shit is put in to counter sf all it does is slow sf by a few mins and make it harder for balanced teams. Nerfing sf & cons is the only way to end this issue but when the majority are farming with it to get shit... yeah good luck with that. most of the "classic" players left long ago. And btw, FoW isn't all that long to complete, you can hero it with a few sets in not much over an hour so a human group with pve skills and p-cons will hit it in ~45 mins, its not that long of an area.

halfies · Aug 20, 2011, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by loshon

No one uses physical on sub 17 runs. This means that the only people you're hurting are the ones who pug FoW and do Manlyway, which are responsible for the majority of FoW farming. Anyone who does sub 17 runs uses Mesway / DWGway / Arcway.

if you gave the enemies order of apostasy terras wouldnt work. so it would punish everyone who uses a SF sin, not just manly.

Bright Star Shine · Aug 20, 2011, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

First of, i am not flaming you.
But tbh, FoWsc doesnt need a nerf, FoW needs a buff!
Menzies, where is he? we got Dhuum, give us Menzies!
new foes, add in something like the skeleton, but a shadow beast instead(he could have remove enchants, but imo, it could turn out OP.)

Good post, though it doesnt solve FoWsc.

If anything is to be nerfed its the 17 min Zraw guild runs,because gems>shards.

I'm confused about this post, if you mean 17min DoA? That's records only, the splits that happen in records are never used in casual runs and are not comparable to anything. Never, ever take records as a standard of rusn that are done. Casuals are more like 33-35min runs.

If you're talking 17min FoW, 17 min FoW is shit. I don't FoW a lot myself, because I don't care for the area, because the money it gives is pathetic, but I know from my other guildies that anything above 15min is shit.

Missing HB · Aug 20, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

If you're talking 17min FoW, 17 min FoW is shit. I don't FoW a lot myself, because I don't care for the area, because the money it gives is pathetic, but I know from my other guildies that anything above 15min is shit.

Such a mentality is what ruined PvE( don't take this as an offense.. i gotta say i myself play for the reward too these days and cba anymore to do areas in 1 hours)...

Things should have been done in the past really to avoid getting those kind of plays today... now well, it's a bit too late in my opinion anyway

Bright Star Shine · Aug 20, 2011, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Such a mentality is what ruined PvE( don't take this as an offense.. i gotta say i myself play for the reward too these days and cba anymore to do areas in 1 hours)...

Things should have been done in the past really to avoid getting those kind of plays today... now well, it's a bit too late in my opinion anyway

Well, I get your point, but tbh, if Anet hadn't given us the chance to do FoW, or any other area so fast, it would never have been a standard.

There will always be people that do areas as fast as possible. If SF would never have been buffed all those years ago, people would probably have found ways to do it in like 25mins. That would have been the SC standard, which would make the PUG standard like 45-1h+. But since we got to do the areas at the speed we do it now ,of course we don't want it to be changed. It's Anet's fault of enabling us to get those times in the first place.

Lithril Ashwalker · Aug 20, 2011, 03:14 PM // 15:14

you could nerf SF and someone would make another way to keep it up, give up the on SF nerf, there are more than 2 mill payers in the game and around 20 game devs...im sure 2 mill can "out think" the dev team; thats why they NERF constantly.

so stop B!%&!ing about SF just to feel like you contributed to the thread. the main issue at hand is Fowsc and the speed anyone can clear it.

if SF nerfed, monks/rangers/warriors etc couldn't use it for what they do now. then ud see a RISE in certain material prices which oh so got farmed for your LIL conset.
every "nerf" has a consequence and reiteration about certain skill nerfs aren't the issue

so, end of story-USE IT AND ABUSE IT AND GO WITH THE FLOW OR STFU

Tripolityx · Aug 20, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Make Terra 1 to kill more Menzies cause every single T1 dies at Menzies. Problem solved. 10hour T1 at least. Thank you.

Swingline · Aug 20, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

remove spell immunity from the game please