Curse

drkn · Aug 11, 2011, 07:43 AM // 07:43

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Can't be done; Wastrel's knocks you down first

When i see a sin or W/A, who's getting into my range or is camping a quarry and obviously targeting me, Healing Breeze becomes something more than just an enchantment spell for health regen.
As mentioned earlier, i sometimes do get knocklocked. Most often not, though, be it either because i can utilize my bar and i'm aware of the surroundings, or that your theoretical 'good melee' is so very rare in JQ.

Elnino · Aug 11, 2011, 08:47 AM // 08:47

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Can't be done... ... will not hit good melee...

...so many bad melee

Therefore, it can be done. You also forgot that timing a skill to coincide with wastrels practically kills their chain.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

A single melee is not going to kill two WoH Monks, but it will be a big asset in taking down one Monk - something none of the meta bars can easily do.

Mesmers can do anything (there are a lot of optional slots in their meta build). Also, any melee who would run up to a monk defending a shrine (whilst the shrine npcs are alive) won't achieve anything, other than being a minor annoyance for like, 3 seconds?

Jeydra · Aug 11, 2011, 10:16 AM // 10:16

No good Wastrel's user will queue Wastrel's from the limits of range unless he is certain you cannot dodge it, so dodging Wastrel's by casting Breeze on yourself is null. I bet it's because good melee is rare in JQ. How many melee in JQ do you even see with two KDs (or even one)?

Mesmers can do many things in JQ but they can't do several things: one, defend shrines (they can defend against some builds, fail to defend against others); two, run shrines and three, kill other players. One of the most stupid sights in JQ is two Mesmers trying to kill one another, they just spam Wastrel's all the time and get nowhere for a minute. Unfortunately that also means a Mesmer can't kill another Mesmer who's nuking shrines / killing carriers. Also you do realize that four of the five shrine NPCs are usually nuked to death and there's only one alive right ...

Swingline · Aug 12, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No good Wastrel's user will queue Wastrel's from the limits of range unless he is certain you cannot dodge it, so dodging Wastrel's by casting Breeze on yourself is null. I bet it's because good melee is rare in JQ. How many melee in JQ do you even see with two KDs (or even one)?

Mesmers can do many things in JQ but they can't do several things: one, defend shrines (they can defend against some builds, fail to defend against others); two, run shrines and three, kill other players. One of the most stupid sights in JQ is two Mesmers trying to kill one another, they just spam Wastrel's all the time and get nowhere for a minute. Unfortunately that also means a Mesmer can't kill another Mesmer who's nuking shrines / killing carriers. Also you do realize that four of the five shrine NPCs are usually nuked to death and there's only one alive right ...

Its actually not as stupid as you might think. When this happens it becomes a battle of energy, I have killed many mesmers when its a wastrels fight because I had more energy. Its easy to do this if your paying attention to them and waiting after they have burned most of their energy. One of the funniest things to do is catch them off guard and guilt them with a chain of wastrels followed after. they usually die running away.

Shayne Hawke · Aug 12, 2011, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I would still like to see a tagline on that new carrier skill that said something like, "If target is in adjacent (nearby?) range, that target shadow steps away from the carrier," just to prevent players from doing some kind of odd bodyblocking maneuver, which is likely the biggest part to why the current skill even exists.

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2011, 03:05 AM // 03:05

High set, and if the Mesmer is choosing to stand and let you spam on him instead of running away then he should be achieving something that you cannot stop. You cannot stop him from capping shrine (unless you interrupt Chaos Storm) and you cannot stop him from killing carrier. Nor can you kill them while running away, because they can easily cast something like Illusion of Haste or Dash or Kitah's Burden (on you, of course) to remove your Wastrel's. Mesmers can't kill other Mesmers in a reasonably short time. Sure they can kill each other, but that's like saying a Monk can kill a Mesmer without self-heal by wanding.

Missing HB · Aug 12, 2011, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I would still like to see a tagline on that new carrier skill that said something like, "If target is in adjacent (nearby?) range, that target shadow steps away from the carrier," just to prevent players from doing some kind of odd bodyblocking maneuver, which is likely the biggest part to why the current skill even exists.

Yes i agree with that, but it's plain ridiculous if you just think at how easily turtle/juggernaut can die to meta ranged bars ( the ones that work already really good at shrines capping), especially when you get no monk in the party ( the format is random....)

Elnino · Aug 12, 2011, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No good Wastrel's user will queue Wastrel's from the limits of range unless he is certain you cannot dodge it, so dodging Wastrel's by casting Breeze on yourself is null. I bet it's because good melee is rare in JQ. How many melee in JQ do you even see with two KDs (or even one)?

Like you've said, good melee are rare. The chances of casting any skill to dodge wastrels being null, is slim to none.

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Mesmers can do many things in JQ but they can't do several things: one, defend shrines (they can defend against some builds, fail to defend against others); two, run shrines and three, kill other players.

Firstly, since when has anything been able to defend against every build? On your second point, running a mesmer in jq is sort of a trade-off. You drop the ability to run shrines (you mean escort carriers right?) while picking up the ability the kill carriers and cap shrines. I didn't mean to imply that mesmers can do everything at the same time. Finally, your third point doesn't hold much truth to it. Sure, you can't kill every player but you can certainly kill a handfull, which is more than enough for jq.

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One of the most stupid sights in JQ is two Mesmers trying to kill one another, they just spam Wastrel's all the time and get nowhere for a minute. Unfortunately that also means a Mesmer can't kill another Mesmer who's nuking shrines / killing carriers.

Agreed on everything other than the last point. If you utilize the shrine npcs, you can kill most mesmers. I rarely ever play mesmer but from my understanding, if you snare the mesmer, the shrine npcs will take care of him easily.

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Also you do realize that four of the five shrine NPCs are usually nuked to death and there's only one alive right ...

Depends how good the monk is. I'm not a great player or anything but I can usually manage keeping at least three of them alive, which is good enough to kill almost anyone.

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2011, 09:39 AM // 09:39

You realize that this thread is about how melee in JQ is underpowered right - and good melee being rare has nothing to do with balance in JQ.

As for Mesmers, your statement was "mesmers can do anything". The fact that there's no one build that can do anything is an excellent sign of balance in JQ, right? Letting the shrine NPCs kill the Mesmer is hardly an achievement; now the NPCs have nothing to cast on and will therefore take full damage from Wastrel's (not to mention Chaos Storm). And I don't believe that you "usually" manage to keep 3 NPCs alive per shrine. There are 5 NPCs to defend and AoE hits hard and furious. When two cappers strike at the same time how do you expect that two Monks will save more than one NPC?

drkn · Aug 12, 2011, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Jeydra - i believe you're making one wrong assumption here, at least regarding the melee (and, especially, wastrel sins): JQ players are not experienced, skilled HA/GvG/RA players with great tactics. Great most of them are 'just' PvErs who got their JQ builds from PvX, using their favorite profession - even if it's useless, thus we sometimes see paras in JQ, as well as loads of wars.
The experienced players, who want to maximize their profits from JQ, most likely roll monks or bombers, maybe mesmers or dervishes now, but if you purposely run a para, war or sin in JQ, given its current state, there's something wrong with you... and i suppose you will waste lots of Wastrel's Collapses in the meantime.

Most 'good' players run something that is viable in the given format, that partially is why they're good. I do agree with you, that a 'good and skilled sin' wouldn't waste Collapse for nothing, but, meh, it's JQ...
I've already started frapsing my JQ matches, with the ultimate goal to create a video compilation of smiter's power in this format, and sooner or later i will stumble upon Collapse sin dying to me 1v1, as it happens quite often.

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When two cappers strike at the same time how do you expect that two Monks will save more than one NPC?

The main failure of most protting/healing monks is keeping up the middle NPC, making it so much easier for most cappers to eventually get the shrine. The NPCs to keep are the ones from the edges, if it's not possible to save the whole shrine.
Anyway, the solutions - two RoJs? Prot two NPCs instead of one, or even WoH two instead of one. Two bombers? Quite hard to time it right to bomb at exactly the same time, and usually it's enough to remove conditions after the bomber's attack. Two melees, even dervs? Probably the easiest to counter, even as a solo monk, though hard on a smiter. Two mesmers is probably the only thing that can penetrate the monks' prots, but that usually involves stripping prots, burning mana or interrupting - and there are easy solutions to each of that problems. Oh, and regarding Wastrel's Worry - spamming Reversal of Damage works wonders.

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Are you saying that melee should be buffed in JQ because most players there are PvE'ers who aren't experienced PvP'ers?

And see, if you save only the outer NPCs (which makes sense) you will not have three NPCs alive. You will have one, or at most two. A 2-NPC shrine defended by two Monks is still nigh impossible to kill without melee, in fact it can almost be defended indefinitely by one Monk against 2 meta players.

Liability · Aug 12, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

melee is fun in jq

mobility can be an issue without shadow steps though

and smite monks or smite hybrids can't handle melee

Elnino · Aug 12, 2011, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You realize that this thread is about how melee in JQ is underpowered right - and good melee being rare has nothing to do with balance in JQ.

Why'd you bring it up then?

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As for Mesmers, your statement was "mesmers can do anything". The fact that there's no one build that can do anything is an excellent sign of balance in JQ, right?

What exactly are you referring to with this? I don't see how I would have said otherwise, I completely agree with you.

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Letting the shrine NPCs kill the Mesmer is hardly an achievement

Compared to letting the shrine be capped? I would think that's more of an achievement than anything else. One of each wastrels and chaos storm isn't enough to cap a shrine.

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And I don't believe that you "usually" manage to keep 3 NPCs alive per shrine. There are 5 NPCs to defend and AoE hits hard and furious. When two cappers strike at the same time how do you expect that two Monks will save more than one NPC?

There's more than one monk build you can run in JQ. If you can't see how it's done, I can't help you.

Jeydra · Aug 13, 2011, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Do you intend to discuss the issues raised in the OP, or are you just posting for the sake of posting? I'm seriously tempted to conclude the latter.

Shayne Hawke · Aug 13, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Yes i agree with that, but it's plain ridiculous if you just think at how easily turtle/juggernaut can die to meta ranged bars ( the ones that work already really good at shrines capping), especially when you get no monk in the party ( the format is random....)

I've seen melee bars take out juggernauts faster than ranged bars. As far as how easy it is, it's probably not that much harder to do it with melee than with ranged. It's just laughable to see anyone do it with a melee bar because you know that they're going to be useless and slow at pretty much everything else. That's just the nature of the arena, and the reason why you don't see people bring melee bars to JQ as much. There's not enough bar compression in the first place for a melee character to do everything that the best ranged bars can do, except perhaps in some newer dervish builds, but that still comes with dampened mobility.

Missing HB · Aug 14, 2011, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Then why not make NPC's split or unball faster on shrines.... it's really a joke when a roj monk or a bomber is capping it in 3 sec...( and plz, no avoid answering with sentences like " play a woh monk " or " catch him on rez point " )..

Actually, the big problem is the roj monk, which can also save shrines/turtle....It's just dealing too much damage for such low healths NPC's....

Jeydra · Aug 16, 2011, 04:29 AM // 04:29

What's wrong with capping a shrine in 3s?

RoJ Monks are vulnerable to interrupts, heals when capping shrines, cannot heal turtle through certain builds and cannot kill players. What's so overpowered about them?

Missing HB · Aug 16, 2011, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What's wrong with capping a shrine in 3s?

RoJ Monks are vulnerable to interrupts, heals when capping shrines, cannot heal turtle through certain builds and cannot kill players. What's so overpowered about them?

And a melee can't cap a shrine alone , can't cap a shrine if there is heals on it, cannot heal turtle. It can kill player , but usually it's useless considering people aren't so dumb to just go on the same shrine over and over ...
It leads you to take skills such as YAA, Wastrels , which require you to teleport to the target or even catch it.... which confirms what i said : a truly melee bar is useless

I don't know if you're trolling but you know you get points if you cap shrines right ? If it was a 100 points cap and you were rewarded 1 point for killing a player then sure i would see no problem...

But what do you want to do with 5-6 melee parties when you lose all shrines in a matter of time ? Just to say, i played RoJ monk for once in JQ with mantra and i kept recapping shrines easily , rushing and getting to a shrine in 5 sec thanks to flux... almost recapping it straight every time....

Besides, what i found a very big joke was when i waited for my oppos to finish off the shrine to just recap it easily 3 sec later.....

Jeydra · Aug 16, 2011, 07:31 AM // 07:31

This is getting rather silly, but:

1. Since when was there an effective melee bar with no speedboost? Since when was snares / teleports not a welcome addition to a melee bar? You do realize that if a Warrior attack were buffed to apply cripple it would be a far bigger buff than if the same attack applied weakness / bleeding etc right? In fact arguably the only conditions stronger than cripple are deep wound, dazed and blind. YAA applies cripple. Wastrel's teleports you and KDs the target. They are both powerful skills for melee characters. So you use them. Saying that "but you are forced to use them" is very similar to "but you are forced to use fire attunement if you are fire ele", i.e. nonsense.

2. All viable HA, GvG, HB, TA, etc builds include at least one Monk. But there are no viable HA, GvG, HB, TA etc builds with ALL Monks (yes, even Shovespike needs a Warrior). You can't win with 5-6 melee parties in JQ, so you say melee are useless. But you can't win with 5-6 Monk parties in HA either. So Monks are useless. Agree?

You play a RoJ Monk with Mantra. Good for you. You're still vulnerable to Power Block / Psychic Distraction / Gale, now you can't run shrines (which is a big loss), you still can't heal turtles through certain builds and you still can't kill players. And you call that overpowered?

So you can wait for your opponents to finish capping a shrine and then recap it 3 seconds later. But your opponents can also wait for you to finish capping a shrine and then recap it 3 seconds later. What's your point?

Elnino · Aug 16, 2011, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

It leads you to take skills such as YAA, Wastrels , which require you to teleport to the target or even catch it.... which confirms what i said : a truly melee bar is useless

A true melee bar has utility skills like Wastrels and YAA. Melees are more useless without them.

@Jeydra: GvG Gothspike?