Curse

Xsiriss · Sep 12, 2011, 09:21 PM // 21:21

So after viewing a thread not long ago that rekindled my feeling of injustice over the state of Eles in HM and specifically Earth, I got thinking. On the whole Earth is a very defensive line, but as was pointed out wards require your team to ball up ( a huge no no) and it can't do anything that justifies taking it over say a defensive rit. Water magic at least sees some PvP useage so I decided to stick with Earth.Air magic got some lovin' not long ago and whilst it'd be nice to see Eles have a more permanent PvE buff here are some changes I'd like to see.

Elites

Sandstorm- Reduce energy down to 10,reduce recharge by 10.

Shockwave- Make it target a foe,and then have the AoE damage done from that target accordingly. Buff the damage too.

Stone Sheath- Foes receive a damage penalty and vulnerability to elemental damage.

Wards

.In general increase all defensive wards radius by 50%. The more offensive wards target a foe an spread from there and provide a -10 armour vs elemental( These would be Ward Against Foes and Of Weakness)

. Reduce recharge of all wards to 12 secs. Reduce the duration of Against Melee by 20% (for balance sake).

Offense

Earthquake/Dragonstomp-Make it only cause exhaustion if you're not enchanted. Maybe a small damage buff.

Crystal Wave/Tenai's Crystals- Reduce recharge to 12secs, make it target a foe.

Magnetic Surge- Reduce recharge to 5secs and casting time to 1. Small damage buff.

Stoning and Ebon Hawk- Damage buff,plain and simple.

Earthen Shackles- This is a bit of a focal point. Reduce recharge to 10 secs and change it to 'Hexed foes suffer -10 armour vs elemental damage and and extra -10 whilst standing in a ward.

The overall goal is to pump up the damage A BIT with synergy opportunities with other elementalists through choice skills. That and buff some plain pointless skills (cough Magnetic Surge). Wards should now be able to keep up with the quicker pace of pve as well as provide some offensive support too. These are just ideas,numbers are open to debate.

Feel free to add skills you think should also receive some attention.

Xenomortis · Sep 13, 2011, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Increasing ward size doesn't really do anything unless you make the increase huge, like 'Earshot' or something; a Ward's area is already 'In the Area'. And even then, Displacement and Aegis are so good and sufficient that the investment into Earth Magic for a Ward still wouldn't be worth it.

As for the offensive skills:
I would say only do one of the suggestions for Earthquake, but to be honest the effect isn't really strong enough in PvE for the costs (25 energy, longish recharge, 3 second cast time).
Crystal Wave and Teinai's Crystals are armour ignoring and do decent damage; I would put the casting time to one second or maybe even two. The condition removal is a nice thing to keep the skill in check.
I wouldn't do anything to Magnetic Surge. With the above you'd potentially outdo the AP-Air build (which is a good damage bar for a caster) by using Magnetic Surge and Crystal Wave instead of Lightning Orb and Chain Lightning.
Stoning and Ebon Hawk are not used not because they don't do damage, but because nobody cares about a single target conditional knockdown for 15 energy nor a one single target, projectile based weakness inflictor. If a good Earth bar were to come up then Stoning might be used as a filler on a hero bar; a damage buff won't really improve its chances.
I don't care for the Earthen Shackles suggestion really; Cracked armour is better although this would stack with it. Regardless, it almost certainly wouldn't be worth the slot.
As for the elites; I don't really care. None are as good as Assassin's Promise. Still, Shockwave wouldn't need a damage buff; at Adjacent range it'd still beat ESurge on non-ranger enemies. For heroes, I guess Shockwave could be used if the non-elites were worthwhile.

As for the armour reduction suggestions; I don't really know what to think of that at the moment. I've been thinking about armour levels in PvE and Eles and I'm not too sure what to say on that yet.

If you want humans to use Earth Magic then you must factor in the AP builds. If you want to see hero Earth bars (and let's face it, hero bars are the only interesting ones left) then some nerfs need to happen first. Mesmers are pretty gross at the moment and the defensive Communing spirits (Displacement and Shelter) are overshadowing with Soul Twisting.
Unless of course, you want Earth Magic to be used by 'creative' people; in that case nothing needs to happen.

HigherMinion · Sep 13, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

So it seems the best way to buff fire/air/earth/water is to simply nerf AP...

Mouse at Large · Sep 13, 2011, 08:27 AM // 08:27

The fundamental problem is not AP being OP but ele damage being underpowered

Outerworld · Sep 13, 2011, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

The fundamental problem is not AP being OP but ele damage being underpowered

Why can't it be a bit off both?

Xsiriss · Sep 13, 2011, 10:43 AM // 10:43

The whole point is to provide alternatives, not fix eles overnight. I don't particularly care about what YOU don't care about,maybe I was wrong to expect a mature answer. Hell keep on using AP builds, they're dull as hell.

The reason why you'd use this armour reduction, which is target at the role of elementalists specifically, is because that of the wards is unstrippable if you remain in it and hexes are less likely to be stripped than conditions.

You're wrong about Stoning and Ebonhawk. They're decent filler skills with stoning providing on demand KD, their casting times are very decent. Magnetic surge is only a single target skill, it on no level does the same job as air especially with the bonus damage only applying to enchanted foes. These are the basic damage skills Earth has to offer.

On reviewing Earthquake I'd say reduce the casting time AS WELL as the proposed buffs, you have called it weak but said only a small part of it should be buffed? Plus on demand AoE kd is all sort of useful.

Overall most skills need a buff in damage because at the moment the numbers only work in NM and against low armour professions.

wilebill · Sep 13, 2011, 11:19 AM // 11:19

These buffs also apply to mobs that use earth damage. There are some mobs and at least one boss I do not want to run into with these buffs. So it would also mean going to all those and nerfing down their power on an individual basis; lot of work. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see Earth and Water both buffed in PvE HM only. But I doubt that the live crew will try that.

Xenomortis · Sep 13, 2011, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So it seems the best way to buff fire/air/earth/water is to simply nerf AP...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

The fundamental problem is not AP being OP but ele damage being underpowered

No and no. Well... the last point is sort of true, but it's more general than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

The whole point is to provide alternatives, not fix eles overnight. I don't particularly care about what YOU don't care about,maybe I was wrong to expect a mature answer. Hell keep on using AP builds, they're dull as hell.

Dartboard buffs achieve nothing until you reach a point where you've overbuffed things massively and suddenly it all gets used.
If you want skill changes to have any meaningful effect then you must consider what people currently take, why they take that and why they don't take other things.
It's because of this that I say (when talking about heroes) nerfing Mesmers and Rits would be a more sane thing to do before buffing Earth Magic because, right now, Rits and Mesmers are what people bring; they have very good reasons for bringing them and they are pretty gross, Rits in particular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

You're wrong about Stoning and Ebonhawk. They're decent filler skills with stoning providing on demand KD, their casting times are very decent. Magnetic surge is only a single target skill, it on no level does the same job as air especially with the bonus damage only applying to enchanted foes. These are the basic damage skills Earth has to offer.

Ebon Hawk is like Enervating Charge; it is primarily a Weakness inflicter and not a very good one at that. Stoning is a better filler damage skill and has a semi-useful effect. If it were to be used, Ebon Hawk won't be used for the weakness trigger. And you don't need several filler skills.
As for Stoning, it's only a single target. The effect might be more useful and better justified if the KD were to be adjacent range; powercreep I know but...
And read my comment on Magnetic Surge again; you didn't seem to get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

On reviewing Earthquake I'd say reduce the casting time AS WELL as the proposed buffs, you have called it weak but said only a small part of it should be buffed? Plus on demand AoE kd is all sort of useful.

I never said Earthquake was weak.
There's a reason a caster cannot typically deal with cast times, recharges and energy costs all at the same time, you can usually only deal with any two (and it'll cost you the elite slot). If Earthquake were to have no exhaustion and a shorter cast time then suddenly there's no problem using it every five to eight seconds; that wouldn't merit a damage buff at all. With just a shorter cast time and damage buff I think you have a fairer skill; it's still more than viable and is only being held in line by its Exhaustion. A similar skill at this point is Meteor; the only thing really stopping me using Meteor is its exhaustion (that and the fact Fireball and Immolate suck), but Earthquake has a stronger effect and with your Crystal Wave change, it would have a decent direct damage skill that's more than viable too.
You reach an awkward point with this; the skill becomes too good without Exhaustion but a risk of just not being worth it in PvE with it. Still, an exhaustion skill can often be happily used three or four times in a fight before it's a real concern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Overall most skills need a buff in damage because at the moment the numbers only work in NM and against low armour professions.

Numbers don't need to be that high. ESurge is a common elite for a Mesmer hero but that doesn't quite reach the 100 damage mark and that's an elite (although I think it is underpriced); all that skill does is damage. For the most part your suggested Shockwave would be a better skill even without a damage buff (apart from the fact it's not in Domination Magic, home of the ridiculous Mistrust).
'You Move Like a Dwarf' is a very strong skill, but it only does (at most) 80 damage and not everyone is going to have it at rank 10; indeed my Ele uses it happily at rank 4, at which point Immolate and Fireball outdamage it, so why do I use it?
How about some Nec hero stuff? Feast of Corruption is a horrendous skill, Defile and Desecrate are barely passable. In terms of damage that hero is probably surpassed in most scenarios by an Invoke Ele, but I use the Necro over the Ele. Why? Because the Necro can do other things. Damage doesn't need to be great if what comes with it is also decent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

These buffs also apply to mobs that use earth damage. There are some mobs and at least one boss I do not want to run into with these buffs. So it would also mean going to all those and nerfing down their power on an individual basis; lot of work. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see Earth and Water both buffed in PvE HM only. But I doubt that the live crew will try that.

I can think of two groups that have threatening Earth Eles; Wardens and the Sandstorm/Stone Shard Crags in Nightfall. Even with these buffs these guys are not as scary as some of the other Elementalist mobs we have to deal with. Besides the Crags are only threatening because Junundu have bugger all armour versus Earth.

HigherMinion · Sep 13, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Better way to buff Shockwave, instead of +dmg is add a "foes adjacent to target foe are knocked down, foes in the area are interrupted" makes sense and pretty helpful! A weak version of an old-Weaken Knees?

Xsiriss · Sep 13, 2011, 02:30 PM // 14:30

The comparisons with mesmers and PvE skills needs to stop. Yes e-surge is an elite aoe damage attack but it's for a different profession, armour ignoring and benefits directly from fast casting. PvE skills are powerful yes but can be used by any profession, the whole point is to look at the Earth line for an elementalist, within their role.

Earth is't designed for pure damage but more support and pressure, wards being exclusive to it. The synergy between Ebonhawk and Stoning for example, the first skill leads to the latter and results in KD,weakness and damage. Comparing it to Air which is pure damage with some mild condition pressure is stupid, especially as Earth can call up say support from wards in the same bar . Heroes would obviously benefit more due to them not being able to use pve skills,but so what? That's not the point, these are suggestions for one elemental attribute and not the state of damage dealers in PvE.

Other lines for other professions could use some love too,I agree that curses has little going for it but stay on topic.

The justification for Crystal Wave is that it is a single burst damage skill that does have the negative (or positive with fragility,but that's not terrible powerful) of purging ALL conditions. You have to be intelligent to use it. A 1 second cast time would be appropriate though.

The reason for buffing raw numbers is because on its own elemental damage sucks, without the AP Air would too. Something like shockwave reaches nowhere near it's potential as it is. Only HM mobs pose a threat with any proposed buff but then that's mainly due to ridiculous attributes in the first place and as pointed out not many mobs use Earth. I like HigherMinion's idea though, so rather than extra damage maybe KD for adjacent foes OR interruption (not both).

HigherMinion · Sep 13, 2011, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Enfeebling Blood will always be the best weakness-inducing skill for any team. Stoning is a projectile and, as such, not "on demand".

LifeInfusion · Sep 13, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Earthquake is a giant AoE pause button akin to Meteor. The reason why it's not used is not because of the damage but the steep energy and time investment. Meteor is used even with the Exhaustion, as is Gale/Shock (in PvP).
--> any "while enchanted" buff to this would benefit earth fast cast Me/E more than eles (exhaustion effects)
--> 2 cast time would be more beneficial

Your proposed Shockwave buff would make it 180 armor-reduced damage on 15 cooldown which is fair until you count the hard mode mobs that use it. There's quite a few mobs that come in sets of 3-4 so with the level bonus it'd be an "instagib" unless you have Shelter or Save Yourselves! (Shelter may not even work since it's not one packet). With a PBAOE you don't have that problem because you can see them coming. Rodgort's Invocation currently is the most spikey AoE out there and it comes at a steep cost.
--> needs something other than simple damage: earth is a utility line
--> something utility like "(10e,1 cast,15 recharge) Target and nearby foes take 20...67...80 earth damage and are knocked down. Target and foes in the area take 15..50...60 damage and suffer weakness."

Sandstorm's problem is that mobs that flee will stop attacking (even if snared, they're not attacking). A better buff would be to apply weakness on each hit like Eruption's blind effects rather than reducing the energy cost. 20 recharge wouldn't hurt but it needs more.
-->It's bad because of the same reason Firestorm is bad: you can't expect things to stay in it for 10 seconds.

Stone Sheath is a huge joke. Unless there is a steep damage reduction on target foes akin to Empathy + Union/Shielding Hands + Dulled Weapon combined nobody will use it because it's elite. It needs to reduce damage by a minimum of 20-30 to be taken seriously in hard mode (or apply weakness whenever targets hit with an attack skill) and increase earth damage by stupid amounts like +75-150% to have elite status.
--> knockdown whenever a target uses an attack skill (akin to Shield Bash / Shield of Force) could be interesting

Magnetic Surge isn't that bad. If the area has orders necromancers or Elementalists, monks (not using Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond, Life Sheath/Reversal of Fortune) and dervishes you satisfy the requirement. 100 armor ignoring damage that's unconditional tends to have 2 cast time: Shadow Strike, Obsidian Flame, Energy Blast, etc. Even Clumsiness, E-surge, Mistrust, Wandering Eye and Enchanter's Conundrum do: it's just that Fast Casting makes it less apparent.
--> I'd rather it add Weakness on non-enchanted targets rather than buffing damage.
--> 30...102...120 earth damage = 75 armor ignoring damage if target is packing 87+ armor so it's reasonable
--> 5 recharge would make it an armor-ignoring equivalent of immolate / lightning hammer... so it's debatable whether that's a good thing

Crystal Wave/Teinai's Crystals would be problematic for teams to build around, so I'd think that having the condition removal dumped would be better than just dropping recharge and making it target something. Even at 12 recharge all it does is armor ignoring, adjacent range damage at the cost of annoying your teammates that blind/weaken/cripple/etc the target (it also hurts Stoning). In general, all AOE elemental damage has to be nearby (and with a high enough damage number) for it to be better than armor ignoring options.
--> look at Defile Enchantments, Feast of Corruption, etc. I think 15 recharge is more reasonable so something akin to "(15e, 1 cast, 15 recharge): Deals 10...82...100 damage to target and adjacent foes." or "(15e, 1 cast, 15 recharge): Deals 8...61...75 damage to target and adjacent foes. Additional 3...21...25 damage on targets knocked down or suffering from weakness. Additional 6...41...50 damage on targets with blind."
--> widen range, compartmentalize the damage to earth damage and make armor-ignoring conditional "(15e, 1 cast, 15 recharge): Deals 10...82...100 earth damage to target and nearby foes and applies weakness. Ignores armor on targets suffering from weakness."
--> if you're going off energy, you could allow it to be 7 recharge and then use once it recharges

Earthen Shackles should at least retain its original functionality on top of what you're suggesting. Asking for -20 armor to elemental damage is not enough for a skill slot.

Wards need a recharge decrease more than anything, to be more active. That part I agree with.

Ward against melee has to be spectacular to compete with Aegis, Displacement ... and is simply not worth bringing with Save Yourselves unless melee are packing energy-based Daze/knockdown and enchantment removal.

Ward against elements is hopeless. Unless you give a sizable bonus to elemental damage from allies, it's pointless when there's Save Yourselves / Stand Your Ground/ Watch Yourself.

Ward of Weakness is tragic. Even with -10 elemental armor, it doesn't do enough and requires elemental damage AoE to be as effective as enfeebling blood (1 recharge...). It needs to amplify ele damage on armored targets with weakness by 40% or something like -20 from cracked armor, -10 armor is ~+19%.

Ward against foes is horrid. It might as well do something ridiculous on top of the snare, like knockdown on targets with blind when they move.

I don't agree with just jacking up damage on Stoning, Ebon Hawk. It's not like 90+ damage with a conditional effect is bad. It's that they're projectile.

The key here is the armor ignoring damage needs to be flavorful. It can't just be a necromancer or mesmer skill with an Elementalist skill name. Therefore:
Crystal Wave, Teinai's Crystals, Obsidian Flame, Magnetic Surge all ought to have other effects rather than simple armor-ignoring damage.

There also needs to be more ways to apply Weakness (water has multiple ways to snare, fire has many ways to burn, air has many ways to blind). Ebon Hawk is shoddy because it's projectile and it is on 5 recharge so you can get only a few targets with it. Glowstone is crap without reliable weakness.

Bumping up damage won't make eles compete with Keystone signet because there's no way you can cast that fast (6 damage spells in 10 seconds is impossible on an ele with 1+ cast times, due to 0.75s aftercast), pure damage is lame compared to utility on top of damage (see Searing Flames bars with absolutely nothing but damage), you're limited by energy regeneration if your elite isn't AP/Elemental Attunement/Glyph of energy, + you need attunements (which are strippable). Instead, I'd try to have eles compete with Illusion builds like Ineptitude+Clumsiness +Signet of Clumsiness (which are still quick casts due to fast casting). For skill flavor, probably all non-projectile earth effects should be looked at and increased to nearby.

Xenomortis · Sep 13, 2011, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Crystal Wave/Teinai's Crystals would be problematic for teams to build around, so I'd think that having the condition removal dumped would be better than just dropping recharge and making it target something. Even at 12 recharge all it does is armor ignoring, adjacent range damage at the cost of annoying your teammates that blind/weaken/cripple/etc the target (it also hurts Stoning). In general, all AOE elemental damage has to be nearby (and with a high enough damage number) for it to be better than armor ignoring options.

I honestly don't think the condition removal is a bad thing. For a non-elite it's decent unconditional damage on (what I would recommend) a one second cast time. I guess making it Nearby might be justified considering the competition but I would definitely keep the caveat. Besides, how often do you depend on conditions? Earth utilises Weakness and Blind for and as it's utility options whilst these skills are much more useful as spike skills. You sacrifice some of that softer shutdown to outright kill your targets.

LifeInfusion · Sep 13, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I can see what you mean about using them as a spike but then they'd only be used on human players anyway (heroes messing up your conditions would be annoying).

If the changes are implemented:
Shockwave , Teinai's Crystals + Crystal Wave, Earth attunement + 4 skills (3 pve skills + glyph?/aura of restoration?)

180 earth on 15r (6e after attunement)
100 armor ignoring on 12r x2 (18e after attunement)

(5.25 cast+aftercast if 1s cast each and 24 energy which takes 18 seconds to gain ; 16s if aura of restoration is used as a cover enchantment)

So on a theoretical 80 armor HM caster mob, that 180 is reduced to 126? +200= 326 adjacent range(, 120 nearby, 60 in the area before reductions)

If you use Finish Him! as a PvE skill to avoid cast times and eek out more damage along with cracked armor: 380, 460 after Deep wound, so that's a spike on 575HP. But then you have an energy deficit that isn't subsidized by glyph/aura of restoration/attunement, which basically costs 3 pips of energy (10e/10s).

You'd need 2 of these templates. If you can't spike with it... I find it pointless if there's no utility. At least you will see it in teams if it's spikey, sort of like Searing Flames without burning.

In comparison to Invoke/Chain lightning which is on 8 and 6 recharge with a total of 4.5seconds of cast + aftercast ... it's decent but has no utility. (i.e. Keystone = 57x6=342 before Unnatural signet and Signet of Clumsiness' AoE damage ... if you include those signets' damage you're pumping out 100+ per signet in <1 second; Clumsiness is on 8r, Wandering eye is 12r, Ineptitude is 15r) On an Invoke lightning bar at least you have more room for useful things and less enchantment reliance (both Invoke/Chain are 10 energy).

Edit: Blind + deep wound + cripple for things to stay put + occasional cracked armor + burning from Dervishes. On the contrary, I'd rather see both Crystal wave/Teinai's Crystals be a reliable source of weakness akin to how Rust is AoE in a utility line but without an especially powerful effect, unlike Ice Spikes. That way Glowstone could be used if Glyph is not an option.

Xenomortis · Sep 13, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I can see what you mean about using them as a spike but then they'd only be used on human players anyway (heroes messing up your conditions would be annoying).

Again, what conditions apart from Deep Wound from Finish Him are you using on a caster that you care about losing? I wouldn't use those skills on a hero if I were running FD but if I were running an AP build?

HigherMinion · Sep 14, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Buff the Crystal spells to deal +dmg per condition they remove; everyone's a winner. You lose your deep wound and they take the extra damage.