Curse

NerfHerder · Dec 01, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I give up. When I get to a million gold i'll just give 100k to a random lvl 3 noob in shing jea to keep from going over.

Spookii · Dec 01, 2010, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

Few things, yes i should've used coinage instead, for it actually has value whereas bills do not. My point remains valid though. Refer to above posts.

Second, the economy wont "crash", at least not to the degree i believe your aiming at. The economy will be unstable for a while until it balances itself out again. The point i was making is that it is unnecessary for such a change seeing as the market is already stable. Implementing the OP idea would cause market instability until it balances out. In the span of economics, if you already have a stable economy, you should NOT make changes that would otherwise make it unstable (unless circumstances permit).

The crashing bit isn't my fear, just what I've read from others on the thread.

The economy may not be "broken", but it obviously could be improved. I think sacrificing the value of an ecto as a secondary currency would be completely worth bringing the game to a more precise form of trade (100k in gold is 100k in gold. 100k in ectos may be 14 or 15 ectos, dependent upon who trades with you. Not very precise at all).

The business with trading with ectos is a way to compensate for the gold cap. People seem to forget this. If we get rid of the gold cap, it would eradicate the need for the secondary currency. This is a good thing. It would make things uneasy for a while, but all changes do. When the HoM Calculator came out, all sorts of items sky-rocketed and the economy was going through a bit of a shake (everything from materials to minipets were affected) but it eventually evened out. I wouldn't say we should nix the HoM update just to avoid the change in the economy.

Ectos would still be highly sought after because of their value as a high-end armor crafting agent and because of their rarity. This wouldn't change anything that didn't need to be changed.

Just settling for the present because it's what's comfortable (when there's room for improvement) doesn't seem like a valid reason to /notsign this.

Kronk_Shaan · Dec 01, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

The crashing bit isn't my fear, just what I've read from others on the thread.

The economy may not be "broken", but it obviously could be improved. I think sacrificing the value of an ecto as a secondary currency would be completely worth bringing the game to a more precise form of trade (100k in gold is 100k in gold. 100k in ectos may be 14 or 15 ectos, dependent upon who trades with you. Not very precise at all).

The business with trading with ectos is a way to compensate for the gold cap. People seem to forget this. If we get rid of the gold cap, it would eradicate the need for the secondary currency. This is a good thing. It would make things uneasy for a while, but all changes do. When the HoM Calculator came out, all sorts of items sky-rocketed and the economy was going through a bit of a shake (everything from materials to minipets were affected) but it eventually evened out. I wouldn't say we should nix the HoM update just to avoid the change in the economy.

Ectos would still be highly sought after because of their value as a high-end armor crafting agent and because of their rarity. This wouldn't change anything that didn't need to be changed.

Just settling for the present because it's what's comfortable (when there's room for improvement) doesn't seem like a valid reason to /notsign this.

^ This ^...change isn't always a bad thing.

gremlin · Dec 02, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

Few things, yes i should've used coinage instead, for it actually has value whereas bills do not. My point remains valid though. Refer to above posts.

Second, the economy wont "crash", at least not to the degree i believe your aiming at. The economy will be unstable for a while until it balances itself out again. The point i was making is that it is unnecessary for such a change seeing as the market is already stable. Implementing the OP idea would cause market instability until it balances out. In the span of economics, if you already have a stable economy, you should NOT make changes that would otherwise make it unstable (unless circumstances permit).

Yes we have a stable economy.
We have a land of chicken farmers with a stable economy based on small coins.
But make a large purchase like a new chicken farm you have to make a journey to the mountains and let your chickens starve so you can capture 10 goats to buy a farm because the seller doesn't accept gold or chickens.

When you get back goats have dropped in value and you need 11 so you go back to the mountains and get two more to be safe.
Returning again you find the farm sold so have to search for another which you now get for 9 so have two goats left over.

Wondering what to do with them you decide to become a goat farmer as there is money in it, so eventually everyone gives up chicken farming ie playing the game and become itinerant goat traders.

Mia Clemons · Dec 02, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

The crashing bit isn't my fear, just what I've read from others on the thread.

The economy may not be "broken", but it obviously could be improved. I think sacrificing the value of an ecto as a secondary currency would be completely worth bringing the game to a more precise form of trade (100k in gold is 100k in gold. 100k in ectos may be 14 or 15 ectos, dependent upon who trades with you. Not very precise at all).

The business with trading with ectos is a way to compensate for the gold cap. People seem to forget this. If we get rid of the gold cap, it would eradicate the need for the secondary currency. This is a good thing. It would make things uneasy for a while, but all changes do. When the HoM Calculator came out, all sorts of items sky-rocketed and the economy was going through a bit of a shake (everything from materials to minipets were affected) but it eventually evened out. I wouldn't say we should nix the HoM update just to avoid the change in the economy.

Ectos would still be highly sought after because of their value as a high-end armor crafting agent and because of their rarity. This wouldn't change anything that didn't need to be changed.

Just settling for the present because it's what's comfortable (when there's room for improvement) doesn't seem like a valid reason to /notsign this.

Yes i agree there is room for improvement, there always will be, but im not sure that this update is a necessary one. Sure it would help solve the problem of ecto's being used as currency; however unless the gold cap is completely removed for both player and xunlai chest, it would only shift the prices of secondary materials as currency. If we truly wanted gold to be the exclusive currency used, than its cap must be removed completely (although having 99999999 gold in a singe trade would be a bit ridiculous and cumbersome)

That is why i say leaving it as is would be perfectly fine. If it were a sincere concern among most players i would say otherwise, but only those traders who specialize in trades over 100k would be really interested in this topic.
That being said, i am slightly bias as i am not a power trader that deals with 100K+ purchases.

p.s. Lmao about chickens and goats example

Spookii · Dec 02, 2010, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

Yes i agree there is room for improvement, there always will be, but im not sure that this update is a necessary one. Sure it would help solve the problem of ecto's being used as currency; however unless the gold cap is completely removed for both player and xunlai chest, it would only shift the prices of secondary materials as currency. If we truly wanted gold to be the exclusive currency used, than its cap must be removed completely (although having 99999999 gold in a singe trade would be a bit ridiculous and cumbersome)

That is why i say leaving it as is would be perfectly fine. If it were a sincere concern among most players i would say otherwise, but only those traders who specialize in trades over 100k would be really interested in this topic.
That being said, i am slightly bias as i am not a power trader that deals with 100K+ purchases.

p.s. Lmao about chickens and goats example

Necessary? I think that it's definitely an improvement that should be considered since it's obvious that people are trading large amounts of money so often and are having to use ectos as currency. This is a game, so I guess in the big picture nothing is technically "necessary". That just depends on what's most important to you as a player in the game.

I agree that a 999999999 trade would be a bit ridiculous, but the issue here is that ectos have made such an impact on the way the economy works (they're not stable at all) AND it's just dang annoying to have to trade large sums of money unless you always have ectos lying around in your storage.

By making the gold cap higher would greatly reduce the hassle that players have to go through to make a transaction that involves more than 100k. I can say myself that I'm no powertrader or ecto farmer and I don't trade large sums of money on a regular basis, which just makes it all the more irritating to me when I do. I have to go and purchase ectos just to make the transaction happen, even when the buyer is perfectly willing to take pure gold and I have the gold on hand. But because of a gold cap, I have to shuffle around the cap.

Many, many items these days are selling for 100k+. I think a 1000k trade maximum would cover a great deal of the items that are being sold. Not many things are sold for more than that, and using armbraces or other, larger secondary currencies would fill in that small margin of leftover items. True, it still requires a secondary currency but this would reduce most of the needless stress that players face on a daily basis.

I think that more people deal with this issue than you're assuming. Just look at Kamadan, any district. Or any main city, for that matter. Many, many people deal with this problem. It wouldn't affect newbies and people who don't trade at all, and it would only improve the experience of players who do trade large sums of money. Once again, I don't see a reason not to consider this.

gremlin · Dec 02, 2010, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

Yes i agree there is room for improvement, there always will be, but im not sure that this update is a necessary one. Sure it would help solve the problem of ecto's being used as currency; however unless the gold cap is completely removed for both player and xunlai chest, it would only shift the prices of secondary materials as currency. If we truly wanted gold to be the exclusive currency used, than its cap must be removed completely (although having 99999999 gold in a singe trade would be a bit ridiculous and cumbersome)

That is why i say leaving it as is would be perfectly fine. If it were a sincere concern among most players i would say otherwise, but only those traders who specialize in trades over 100k would be really interested in this topic.
That being said, i am slightly bias as i am not a power trader that deals with 100K+ purchases.

p.s. Lmao about chickens and goats example

re Goats comments Thanks its nice to have my attempts at humour recognised.

I am not quite in agreement with the cap being increased or done away with altogether I am more in favour of a third tier in coinage.

They should have started with copper as the base not gold that would then allow the obvious copper Silver Gold

It works in most role playing games and is the stuff of fantasy fiction not to mention many early civilisations.
Almost any civilisation I can think of eventually moves from one coin type to 2 then 3 4 5 6 7 whatever was needed.

There are several coins used as collectables in the game that are based on Copper Silver Gold and its a little late to revalue the current coins to add either copper or Silver.

Hence my suggestion of Adamantium as being one level above Platinum.

MithranArkanere · Dec 02, 2010, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Those that trade with big numbers lose a lot of gold because of the fluctuations in Ecto price.

That's a gold sink, a tax for going over the 100k gold limit.

It's fine as it is.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 02, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I think the cap is a good way to prevent inflation.

NerfHerder · Dec 02, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Those that trade with big numbers lose a lot of gold because of the fluctuations in Ecto price.

That's a gold sink, a tax for going over the 100k gold limit.

9 Rings is a gold sink, the money basically leaves the economy at that point. Buying anything from a Merchant/NPC and using it for personal use(ID/Salvage kits) is a gold sink. Trading ectos only distributes wealth to another player. Meanwhile, farming ectos slowly inflates the market just as much as gold trickling in from gameplay also inflates the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

I think the cap is a good way to prevent inflation.

How? If I have two stacks of ectos worth roughly 3 million gold, how is that not the same as having or being able trade 3 million gold? It still bypasses the cap, preventing nothing but a fair trading system.

gremlin · Dec 02, 2010, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Those that trade with big numbers lose a lot of gold because of the fluctuations in Ecto price.

That's a gold sink, a tax for going over the 100k gold limit.

It's fine as it is.

Fluctuations in ecto prices are a tax on some and a source of income for others.
If you just buy a few to use in trade you might lose out you might not.
This rarely if ever happens to those that "Trade with big numbers"

According to other players the best way to make the most cash in the game is power trading.
In other words buying and selling expensive items that have fluctuating values, of necessity Ectos are used in such trades.

I guess those that lose a lot of gold in this way are more than compensated by the huge profits they make.
If the money cap increased or we started using a higher value coin in trading they would still make the same profits because they are good at what they do but it would just make the trading system more rational.

TitansFaith · Dec 03, 2010, 10:16 PM // 22:16

/signed

A higher gold cap in both Storage and Players is a welcomed change. Also a Trade Cap increase is needed.

Only those who are too obsessed with their amassed wealth in Ecto are against something so easy and convenient. I mean considering the actually percentage of items actually over 1000k is very small there's no reason to not allow a higher Trade cap. Also there is only a small percentage of people that actually have that kind of money or are willing to pay for those items.

By the way... BIG DEAL if ectos crash in price they are a Material, and should only be a material. The only reason for the price they have now is trading, and it's cumbersome to either have to swap out the cold hard cash for them or go farm.

I have dealt with Trades over 100k and having to use or go get Ecto when I have the cold hard cash is irritating and inconvenient. But Unless the cap is removed as a whole, there will be need for a secondary currency or a third tier in the current monetary system. And as previously stated by others the removal will be cumbersome. But given that Anet has more important things ahead of them at the moment, a simple increase would be the most expedient solution.

Lord Mip · Dec 04, 2010, 12:42 AM // 00:42

It's still very possible to make precise trades using cash + ectos, so I don't really see the problem. WOuld've been a good idea at the start of GW but not now anymore.

Utopian · Dec 04, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

/signed

I agree with raising the xunlai cap. Raising the player and trade caps would mess up trade and be an unnecessary change. Raising xunlai caps would just let people hoard more gold without having to deal with ecto rates. Hell, anet could even make raising the cap a cash item like they do with extra storage slots.

gremlin · Dec 04, 2010, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

It's still very possible to make precise trades using cash + ectos, so I don't really see the problem. WOuld've been a good idea at the start of GW but not now anymore.

The fact that you can make precise trades is not the point.

You still have to rely on variable price items that can only be obtained as a rare drop in a few areas of the game.
That or forced to buy them from other players.

If your a player with no ectos whether you be a new player or no and suddenly come across a good deal in trade what are you to do, say hang on for a day or two while I go try to get the ectos,

You could even have a situation where a group of players do a scam one selling something good and another providing ectos at an inflated price.
Pretty easy I would have thought to turn down all but the most ott offer till the other reports he has sold his ectos.

Whether this should have been done last week last year or 5 years ago is not important.
Expensive items are being sold and all players have a right to expect the currency to allow their purchase.
Why do you think players report bots farming like mad in some areas or the gold sellers etc a lot of that has to be because the game is so open to abuse.

Lord Mip · Dec 04, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Ectos prices are usually stable and are also easily bought. The scam you mentioned is easily enough done with any item in Guild Wars so I don't think it's an argument in favor of your case. Should you raise the gold cap, then ectos would suddenly be worth much less and a lot of people would lose a lot of money. I for one have a few hundred ectos, and my fortune would be like halved should this come through. And please don't give me the 'you're rich so it doesn't matter' crap. I worked hard for those ectos and I wouldn't want to see that playtime ruined because there are people who don't want to invest 5 minutes of their time into buying ectos in ToA..

Spookii · Dec 04, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

Ectos prices are usually stable and are also easily bought. The scam you mentioned is easily enough done with any item in Guild Wars so I don't think it's an argument in favor of your case. Should you raise the gold cap, then ectos would suddenly be worth much less and a lot of people would lose a lot of money. I for one have a few hundred ectos, and my fortune would be like halved should this come through. And please don't give me the 'you're rich so it doesn't matter' crap. I worked hard for those ectos and I wouldn't want to see that playtime ruined because there are people who don't want to invest 5 minutes of their time into buying ectos in ToA..

That's not a reason not to change the system. That's a reason why you wouldn't want to change the system, because it might affect you in a negative way. But I say that changing the system would be useful. Why is your personal reason any better than my prosocial reason? (I'm not gaining/losing any money if this were to happen, just improving the quality of the game)

People have ectos because they ...

A) Have no more room for pure gold and must store their wealth elsewhere. This is one thing we want to get rid of: forcing people to store pure gold in items because of small storage space. I don't see why these people would complain about a change. It clears their storage space out and makes life a little easier.

B) Invested in ectos. And an investment can always turn over on itself. You can win, you can lose. That's why many people liquidate as much as possible into pure gold before going on a lengthy break. You can always lose when you invest.

And like I said before, ectos may even rise in price for all we know. I don't see how making ectos less useful as a secondary currency would cheapen them. You're not making a build that would make farming them easier, you're not increasing the drop rate, you're not decreasing the drop rate. I, for one, would not run and sell my ectos to the nearest trader ASAP if this were released. I still want my money's worth out of them.

It's just a matter of what's most important for the game in the long run. Everyone has admitted that it will cause some instability at first, but any change would. It will even out eventually, though. Especially with the release of GW2 nearing, I think that getting rid of the gold cap is a great idea. Ectos will probably be harder to come by after GW2 rolls in, just because of fewer players farming AND because people will leave GW for good (leaving their ectos and money to rot in storage, not circulating in the economy). It will be even harder to get the ectos you need just to trade for something.

Lord Mip · Dec 04, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

That's not a reason not to change the system. That's a reason why you wouldn't want to change the system, because it might affect you in a negative way.

It's not a personal reason. I only used myself as an example. This change would affect the wealth of thousands upon thousands of players. Not only those people who have ectos, which are a lot of people, but also people that make money by getting ectos in a certain way, such as TOPK Farming, UW runs, Ecto solo farm. Good going making Speed Clearing an even more forced way to make your money. Soon the population will be 99% assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

People have ectos because they ...

A) Have no more room for pure gold and must store their wealth elsewhere. This is one thing we want to get rid of: forcing people to store pure gold in items because of small storage space. I don't see why these people would complain about a change. It clears their storage space out and makes life a little easier.

If people don't store their wealth in ectos they might store it in a different way. You having items in your storage makes you guilty of storing cash in currency as well. Ectos are not so different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

B) Invested in ectos. And an investment can always turn over on itself. You can win, you can lose. That's why many people liquidate as much as possible into pure gold before going on a lengthy break. You can always lose when you invest.

You're trying to justify our losses by saying investing can give you potential losses. True, but we do not invest in ectos. We only use them as a currency which is nearly as efficient as gold itself. Investing in a semi-stable item would be silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

And like I said before, ectos may even rise in price for all we know. I don't see how making ectos less useful as a secondary currency would cheapen them. You're not making a build that would make farming them easier, you're not increasing the drop rate, you're not decreasing the drop rate. I, for one, would not run and sell my ectos to the nearest trader ASAP if this were released. I still want my money's worth out of them.

Everybody with at least a grain of common sense will know that ectos go down if they increase the gold cap. Probably more than 90% of the people needing ectos right now are people who buy high end items. Demand drops, supply stays more or less the same, price goes down. Simple economics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

It's just a matter of what's most important for the game in the long run. Everyone has admitted that it will cause some instability at first, but any change would. It will even out eventually, though. Especially with the release of GW2 nearing, I think that getting rid of the gold cap is a great idea. Ectos will probably be harder to come by after GW2 rolls in, just because of fewer players farming AND because people will leave GW for good (leaving their ectos and money to rot in storage, not circulating in the economy). It will be even harder to get the ectos you need just to trade for something.

You don't seem to understand the consequences of an action as you propose. It will grief so many players (Ecto farmers, people who play UW, ~30% of the total community since they're using ectos) for the good it may cause. Speaking for the community as a whole is narrow-minded because there are many people who wouldn't care if they changed it or not. Lots of people I know either don't attain the wealth that they're forced to ectos, or just use ectos because it's actually quite convenient.

gremlin · Dec 04, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I am actually quite amazed that people still have a large fortune in either gold, ectos or anything else.

I don't suppose I should presume to know any other players reason for a fantasy fortune but I assumed once it was determined exactly what was needed to fill out the HOM players would be busy using their resources to do that.

I had some 800k pretty small by most standards and perhaps another 400k in resources I could sell.
Half of that has gone on elite armour sets to fill out the hom and I am now just working on Vabbian armour to get me to 30 points.

I am curious as to just what anyone needs to still keep a large cash or ecto reserve for.

As for alterations to the present system causing a crash and people losing out, well that could happen at any time really.
Relying on one item is probably foolish if you have too great a fortune to be stored as platinum I would have thought spreading out from ectos into zaishen keys Gemstones etc would be a good thing.

Any game change could cause a loss in value of any one item at any time, anyway from the posts it seems there are a lot of people on both sides of the argument and if anet pay any attention to such posts they can decide the outcome of this thread themselves.

Ixillius · Dec 05, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

/signed

Sick and tired of keeping 75k on each caracter