Curse

Essence Snow · Jan 25, 2012, 02:52 PM // 14:52

^^ As it has been noted on numerous occasions.....ppl new to formats like ha and gvg playing with each other is like the blind leading the blind. They will spend a disproportionate amount of time setting up vs playing. IE they will spend 1 hr setting up and 2 mins getting stomped. They will learn nothing from the experience except that it's not worth their time in a GAME to do something that's not fun. Imagine yourself spending hours on end getting rdy for something and as soon as you start its over in mere minutes. Then you have to repeat that process again only to obtain the same results. Pretty soon it ends up you've spent a whole day setting up and 30mins playing. Not tempting at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from the best I can tell the ladder system encourages rerolling guilds untill you have a group that wins consistently? This is not an option for a lot of players. They have guilds which are large and/or they have invested massive amounts of time into. Learning a format that has a laddder system while remaining in such a guild will assure that they are at severe disadvantage by the time they start winning moreso than losing. Moreso mutiple groups from one guild maybe contributing to ladder rank, which is a whole other issue.
Most players do play with thier friends just not in pvp.

Coast · Jan 25, 2012, 03:14 PM // 15:14

why don't u play friendly scrims?

Essence Snow · Jan 25, 2012, 03:23 PM // 15:23

To get close to the same experiece wouldn't that require setting up 16 players?

Reverend Dr · Jan 25, 2012, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

So yeah, when people say play with ur friends, its not a joke, a troll, or elitism. Its genuine advice. We play with our friends, try playing with urs? If you want to play with us (read: the competitive PvP community) then make friends with us. To do that you would probably need to pm ppl you see on obs. What a suprise, the advice dark/lemming have been giving isnt a troll after all, its actually the truth! unbelievable i know!

Essence, I believe this is the part you are discounting. There is just something about people making blanket statements about the PvP community, when no one in the community has any idea who that person is. Something about people saying that the PvP community should have taught them or put them in teams, when no one knew that they were interested.

If we don't know who you are or what you want, then how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are we supposed to accommodate that?

That is why the PvP community says such individuals aren't trying.

Martin Alvito · Jan 25, 2012, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

The entire top tier of pvp players in guild wars, say the top 200 GvGers and a handful of other HA/RA players all know each other. We don't form pugs, we only group with people from our friends lists or other players that we know vaguely. For instance Lemming and Dark who have been posting here, I know who they are from within the PvP community so they are the sort of guys who i'd consider playing with. I NEVER pug anyone for either GvG or HA. Take friends or don't play.

Right, but you're not accounting for how players got into the network in the first place. Others have correctly identified the real issue with HA: the demise of mid-tier teams. That moderately skilled pool of players is important, because it creates the social link between top teams and new players. Regardless of format, strong teams that need to plug a hole are going to be willing to teach someone...given that the prospect already brings a certain level of knowledge and ability to the table. The mid-tier teams are needed to disseminate that knowledge and also to serve as a place where the best teams can observe prospective talent in action. GvG has always had people willing to fill that role, but HA is structured differently.

The problem HA suffers from is that it requires a certain critical mass of players to sustain mid-tier teams. A play-until-you-lose format requires escalating rewards per win in order to keep people playing rather than /resigning, but it also means that the reward structure collapses once the player base gets thin enough. Mid-tier teams accustomed to getting some fame cease to get more than a dribble and dissolve under social drama as losing PvP teams so often do, a new mid-tier team falls into the same trap and the cycle repeats.

That's the answer to the unanswered question on the first page of the thread: 'why did it bleed out so fast?' Once the destructive chain reaction begins, it's very hard to stop it given the format.

That said, tweaking the reward structure isn't the answer. That just leads to /resign wars. Ditto removing /resign; all people will do is not play rather than /resign. That's inefficient; it wastes a minute of everyone's time without accomplishing the overall goal.

I honestly don't see a solution at this point short of building a time machine. The network of mid-tier teams is gone, and you're not getting them back at this point in the game's run regardless of how you try to tweak the reward structure.

Let's be clear about one other thing: if you're outside the network, you cannot personally use this problem as a justification for failure unless you are interested in HA and in no other format. As a player outside the network, what you have is a signaling problem. Experienced players stay within the network for a reason: players outside the network are overwhelmingly likely to be bad. If you're skilled and you want to play, your responsibility is to find some way to distinguish yourself from the pool of legitimately bad players outside the network. You also need to be willing to admit that you may need to change some things in order to be worth playing with.

lursey · Jan 26, 2012, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That said, tweaking the reward structure isn't the answer. That just leads to /resign wars. Ditto removing /resign; all people will do is not play rather than /resign. That's inefficient; it wastes a minute of everyone's time without accomplishing the overall goal.

in my opinion to sustain a high-tier population, its required a significant amount of low-tier players which may contain abuser, to maintain the mid-tier fair play population which is essential to a ladder structure.

that's why reward to loser comes to play, just imagine, if Fort Aspenwood, jade quarry, or even 9 rings of circle, the loser do not get a prize, I would very doubt the amount of population will still be at this high.

in terms of /resign wars, it wouldn't alternate much like now, players can still resign for the opposite team to gain their rank, but players do not so, as it is not really beneficial to them, but if there is a loser title, there maybe more players want to gain rank, because more people want to lose, and more people play to win for rank, which creates competitiveness, and players can then move to mid-tier easier

atm, there is no such a route, the structure cannot identify mid-tier population, leading to the mid-level maps of HA are usually skipped.

say if teams want to gain their loser title as quick as possible, they would want to resign at the early stage of HA, because it gives more points to the title timewise,

but if team resign after consecutive winning of 5 match they will gain 6 points of loser title + 10 points of fame, likewise if team resign in UW, they will only get 0 points of fame, and 1 point of loser title

therefore, in UW, there maybe more resign team, but as they progress to hoh, the point of fame + loser point, will sustain the population of those who want to progress both titles, which they are the mid-tier population and only those who are really good high tier and always win at HOH, will have a low loser title + high fame.

and later on, players can ask other to show their loser title and compare with their fame title, then it can show a more actual side of players skill level, which superficially created a better player status, than just only looking at fame, which doesn't mean anything, but players still relying on it.

is 1000 fame/3000 LOSER, 1000 fame/1000 LOSER, or 1000 fame /100 LOSER, better? you can identify quite easily.

so I said, it depends on whether players want to gain the LOSER or FAME title more, just like SC/WC3 ladder, player can abuse the ladder and resigning every game, but there are not many players doing so, because it will ruin their stats.

floor · Jan 26, 2012, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Right, but you're not accounting for how players got into the network in the first place. Others have correctly identified the real issue with HA: the demise of mid-tier teams.

you're right about the mid tier teams thing, without a doubt.

But to clarify the other part, if i form up for GvG/HA i will go through my friends list and pm ppl to play. I have 50 people on my friends list, presumably those people who want to get into HA also have 50 people on their friends list. Maybe pm them, form ur own teams.

Yes as someone said it will be "the blind leading the blind", but thats just how its always been. Even in years gone by, totally new players were not accepted into experienced groups, there just happened to be a greater mass of new players to group up with amongst themselves.

Repeated exposure to a format increases your chances of:
a) learning something
b) Getting to know people within the 'network'
c) perhaps most importantly getting the 'network' to know you.

If you don't play, you wont become 'known'. If your not known then you wont be invited to groups, even if you have titles. Its perhaps a difficult concept for many ppl to grasp but the majority of good groups in PvP are made up of friends who know each other, not a bunch of r12+ pugs found in ID1.

Grouping with other inexperienced friends might not be easy, and it certainly wont be productive regarding winning fame, but if you want to get involved its definitely the route you need to take.

(ofc the fact that format is dead and boring entirely circumvents this issue, and just makes it unplayable for everyone, those in the 'network' and those who are not alike.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from the best I can tell the ladder system encourages rerolling guilds untill you have a group that wins consistently? This is not an option for a lot of players. They have guilds which are large and/or they have invested massive amounts of time into. Learning a format that has a laddder system while remaining in such a guild will assure that they are at severe disadvantage by the time they start winning moreso than losing. Moreso mutiple groups from one guild maybe contributing to ladder rank, which is a whole other issue.
Most players do play with thier friends just not in pvp.

Yes and No. Sure some teams will change their line-ups in order to achieve success, other teams will stick together through good and bad, learning together how to be successful. Its a personal preference that often depends on how strong your friendships / social bonds are.

To get into PvP these days requires a strong commitment to do so, and a huge time investment, this is no secret. So those players who refuse to leave their large "PvE" guilds, essentially prevent themselves from ever getting into PvP. There is nothing wrong with this, after all you do what you enjoy, but its just how it is. In recent times, the 8v8 PvP formats are basically all or nothing, there isnt really a place for the casual gamer anymore since the lower/mid tier players have disappeared over the years as a result of the age of the game. Most people who do still play these formats are highly driven, competitive individuals who simply do not understand the casual mentality. (myself included, i never got how ppl can play pvp casually, they still try to win after all, therefore they are unwittingly competitive??)

Missing HB · Jan 26, 2012, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

So yeah, when people say play with ur friends, its not a joke, a troll, or elitism. Its genuine advice. We play with our friends, try playing with urs? If you want to play with us (read: the competitive PvP community) then make friends with us. To do that you would probably need to pm ppl you see on obs. What a suprise, the advice dark/lemming have been giving isnt a troll after all, its actually the truth! unbelievable i know!

Playing with friends doesn't change the fact that you still need opponents( cough * codex especially)
You might believe having to wait 5 restart in halls or 30mn for an opponent in GvG is normal, but i'm pretty sure the majority of players will say it's not..

Obviously, pugs teams will always be less good than guild/friends teams, there is no problem from this.. What people are complaining here is that there are usually more guild teams than pugs teams and the whole concept of pug becomes ridiculous as they're just meant to be farmed over and over, instead of winning some occasionnaly... Then pugs stop and formats become inactive like today..

lursey · Jan 26, 2012, 10:23 AM // 10:23

is a guild team stemmed from pug philosophically?

floor · Jan 26, 2012, 10:23 AM // 10:23

i agree completely, its pretty much what i put in my previous post. If i quote myself:

"ofc the fact that format is dead and boring entirely circumvents this issue, and just makes it unplayable for everyone, those in the 'network' and those who are not alike."

axe · Jan 26, 2012, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Everyone complaining about Rank Discrim, has not played HA when the game was active, there were ranked teams back then true, of course, but you could get a team of 8 in 3 min, in fact a lot of times you would not act fast enough and miss the forming of 4 teams before scoring a spot on the 5th, you could win the first 2 maps with near first time players consistently as the population was so huge, you would get draws vs. equally new teams, the fix is out of Anet's hands, increase population, it is out of anyones hands at this time.

The only solution that makes any sense at all to me, is to simply stop kicking losing teams out of the map rotation (except a loss on UW), just leave them all in, if I lose on courtyard, I go back however many maps/skips to the next avail. team, or even stay on courtyard and face a new team(s) award fame based on map won, not consec. wins, this way if you skip to Halls you are not playing for 2 fame, its always X for that map. This is the only way to allow players to make their time worthwhile if the teams are fighting on the later maps instead of always brawling for 1 fame on UW. It could also aide in getting 3-ways in Halls more often as well.

pah01 · Jan 27, 2012, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Well what can be said that has not already been said. Something needs to be done to encourage newer players to come into the format. However, the fact of the matter is. doing anything in PvP requires effort and commitment.

I have not played in ages (HA) but I do not know anyone left that I played HA with when I did. That means that even for a player like me who has rank, it is the same time investment all over again. Not only will I have to relearn stuff that I have forgotten but because the game has changed, I would have to unlearn stuff that I do remember.

Floor is right.

*lemming* · Jan 28, 2012, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

@ lemming, I totally agree that those are 2 factors, not the only 2 though.

What other factors can you think of that influence group formation? Either being recognized as being competent or being a friend of someone is sufficient for getting invited. (Of course, it's better off if both apply to you.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

New players are eager just to jump right in, though at times that can be a detriment, it sure can be a help, if honed and trained. sometimes just finding the person that is willing to learn can be a great start. Sometimes however, people will defy the odds, and just be naturals. What about all those folks who get discouraged and move on, even though they exhibit an ability to perform, but due to the circumstances of HA do not pursue it?

Couple of quotes here that may or may not pertain:

"I can teach people to cook. I can't teach character."

"What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. ...Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun."

If you're talented and you don't care enough to make use of it, then what does it matter how good you might be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

As far as GvG, its hardly a worthwhile format either. Different set of tactics, different skill requirements, and a different focus altogether.

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

is a guild team stemmed from pug philosophically?

If by pug you mean any group of erstwhile strangers united because of a shared objective, then yes.

jazilla · Jan 28, 2012, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Martin's post is correct. We had other problems as well, but I agree with his "mid-level team post". My Alliance played HA for a few months and got some kudos from some good players for our build ideas, but there were always people on those teams being total jerks too. The latter part of that last sentence is why we stopped playing in HA altogether. When a community fosters negativity and high level players put winning above being good sports, no one is going to want to join that community.

I was into video games at a young age because I hated the way athletes at my school treated everyone who wasn't the best at what they did. I found the gaming community around arcades playing MK and Street Fighter during the early 90's to be really cool and eager to teach. Maybe that was because we were all there in person, I don't know. But the high end PvP community over the years has had its fair share of mean people over the years in GW, and it really reminds me of athletes back when I was in High School. That is why I stick to RA, because I don't have to try and get into a community of players that treat others poorly for a competitive experience in GW. I can just turn all chat off and keep team chat on for the calls.

I would hope that you mods here on guildwarsguru try to take your philosophies into GW2 and create a cool experience from the get go there as opposed to what happened with GW1. Like Martin said, besides a time machine, I think it is over trying to salvage a cool atmosphere in this game for people to learn and make friends. Remember, if you are not being cool to other people playing and trying to enjoy a game, you are part of the problem.