Curse

drkn · Jan 21, 2012, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Cry elitist all you want, but this is a fact. Its quite clear HA needs people with the right mindset, not people who quit when they encounter good players. It was active and people advanced from nothing to r8+ for what, a good 5 years? Explain that if its all because of elitism herpderp.

Let me help you, then.
The game is six years old. Most of the current r8+ started to HA a long time ago, when there wasn't that many other r8+ players to begin with, or they had friends or guilds interested in doing HA, thus easier way to get into the format.
The discussion is not about whether all r8+ players are jerks and should have rank removed back to r0. It's about getting into HA today, with no rank at all to show off, based only on your willingness to play, learn and get better. Even if there are dozens of PvErs with the right attitude - they wouldn't care about losing, they would really want to learn and improve over time - they can't do it, because they are not accepted into groups... because of rank discrimination or other factors.
It would be much easier for a newcomer who actually, really wants to learn if HA was randomised (or Codex was changed into a HA-like arena, 8v8 with similar maps, but randomised), or if there were many many other PvErs willing to do the same, with skin thick enough to simply play for the sake of fun and enjoyment, not winning. And while there might be quite a bunch of PvErs interested in HA, even with mature and 'right' attitude, it's virtually impossible to gather them all at one place and time, so they can easily form a group.
Thus, with no real help from r8+ who usually whine about how HA is dead, HA won't recover.

e:
Because of limited playerbase and vast difference in the ranks (lots of high ranked people, lots of low/no ranked people, virtually non-existent 'middle class' that would aspire to top groups, but would also enjoy playing with newbies), HA may be now compared to an exclusive gentlemen club. For invitations only - you know, like someone from the club has to invite you there and guide you for a while so you immerse into the group and may become a full member, with your own rights, skills and stuff.
You could start up a new, small club with less restrictive invitation criteria, that would do virtually the same as that old, exclusive one, but - for various reasons - starting a guild for newbies only who want to go HA is not an option, as the guild would collapse really fast without the proper tutor. Having 22 fame myself, i'm in no position to gather like-minded wanna-be HAers into a guild and to lead them against all those high ranked, experienced players, as i, myself, still need someone from the inside to throw me the rope. You can't have blind following the blind, so arguments like 'just gather other PvErs and play, what's the problem' are invalid. You could have done it back when HA was still pretty young and the 'middle-class' still existed, and other players weren't so advanced when compared to you, starting out fresh. You still can do it in randomised arenas and still learn, get better and finally even get streaks when monking in RA, but it's not the privilege of organised formats anymore.

JONO51 · Jan 21, 2012, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

You sir are proving the point with each post that there IS a problem with the mindset you want.

You're still focusing only on rank. People were able to join, participate and improve for a good 5 years. The reason the game is dying and the format is empty save for a few hardcore is because:
-Pool of players who would succeed depleted/moved on
-Poor balance choices/lack of live team resources
-Old/stale game
-Plenty of other high profile games out and coming out
-People farming for rewards in the sequel out this year

Rank hasn't suddenly come and killed every single person under rank 10. The majority of them will just have left and hence the ones who really like the format (ie r10+) are left. The problem with your idea is it will result in the people who quit now at r0 because they lose a lot, will instead quit once they hit the higher rank brackets and encounter the vets. All that results is everyone gets a new title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

1.) If it was just because of people leaving the game... there would be problem areas in other formats that are non-ranked based.... This has amplified the problem but is not the direct cause.

2.) There is a huge social barrier when it comes to formats like HA and GvG because once people have their defined teams they have no interest in helping others come into the format. Its not that people don't have the right mind set, and it can't be fixed by telling people to get the right mind set, nor is it something anet can fix... this is a problem because have no reasonable and clear cut avenue to improve themselves and become acceptable into higher formats... until there is a solution to simplify the situation.. or give people some kind of in game training to complete... this will remain a problem. There are community events for this but its to little to late. an adjustment of the means of discrimination is required.

3.) I can agree with you there.... this may be a time to find acceptable the idea of awarding fame for participation so people will feel like they are gaining means to fight discrimination and stay. In other words... its completely acceptable to roll over newbs... but if you want them to stay throw them a bone... don't expect many people to be satisfied with just the learning experience of a video game and nothing to show for it in game.

1. The only pvp formats left alive are the ones with random enter, short game times and solid rewards. i.e. RA, JQ/FA. Even AB is dead at this point because it just isn't worth it. An arena that can take a good 20 minutes team set up, several enter/exits until you get on a good run and plenty of team coordination isn't going to cut it.

2. I do agree that things would be easier with a mentoring programme. In the past, several guilds used to teach players (kiSu comes to mind) but there just isn't the player base there anymore, and the majority that are just want to get the last of the stuff for the sequel (in other words, pve). As you mentioned, people stick to groups they know, so even if the only barrier was removed (rank) all that happens is the exp people go f-list/guild/alliance only and there's no real point risking a pug who may have held halls countless times or just be fresh out of kamadan.

3. I wouldn't really mind if fame was awarded for participation, perhaps it would make some people try harder to get into HA. I doubt it would result in a surge of players though, simply because the majority of people just don't want to put in the time investment to improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Even with idiots vs idiots eventually one idiot will learn enough to start winning consistently and will move up to harder opponents.
The problem with a totally open pvp often there are some very good people in there and being beaten continuously discourages rather than encourages.

When many of you started pvp some 6+ years ago you began on a level footing and all learned together.
Anyone entering now is likely to come up against players and teams that have such an advantage in experience it will take a very long time to learn much and begin winning.

I think the real reason the older players are against a league or ranking system is that it will remove all the easy wins they get from playing idiots.
Instead every match would be against their peers which is as it should be.

But the thing is, all this does is give unranked players an easy way to gain fame by playing low skilled players. When they hit the bracket for exp players, they aren't going to have seen and learned all the different optimal strategies, builds & tactics. The few people who do fight through that would have succeeded from fighting through at r0 (at least when HA had a decent activity level). All this idea does is move the "r0 problem" to the r6+ bracket.

drkn · Jan 21, 2012, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

But the thing is, all this does is give unranked players an easy way to gain fame by playing low skilled players. When they hit the bracket for exp players, they aren't going to have seen and learned all the different optimal strategies, builds & tactics. The few people who do fight through that would have succeeded from fighting through at r0 (at least when HA had a decent activity level). All this idea does is move the "r0 problem" to the r6+ bracket.

Oh, it would achieve much more.
The main problem with HA is with getting into it. So if r6 players would still be idiots with no skill against experienced players, at least those r6 players would have their groups. Their friend-list would feature other HAers who went from r0 to r6 with them. They wouldn't whine about not being able to form a group, but maybe about being beaten by better players - sure, some vent-rage would go on, but it's not an issue for the guru forum. It's normal to be beaten by a better group until your group gets good enough to start beating them, too. And it's understandable mechanism. Still, at least HA would see some play, and it would be much easier to get into it, find other players to form groups, and so on.

JONO51 · Jan 21, 2012, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Oh, it would achieve much more.
The main problem with HA is with getting into it. So if r6 players would still be idiots with no skill against experienced players, at least those r6 players would have their groups. Their friend-list would feature other HAers who went from r0 to r6 with them. They wouldn't whine about not being able to form a group, but maybe about being beaten by better players - sure, some vent-rage would go on, but it's not an issue for the guru forum. It's normal to be beaten by a better group until your group gets good enough to start beating them, too. And it's understandable mechanism. Still, at least HA would see some play, and it would be much easier to get into it, find other players to form groups, and so on.

To solve the problem of grouping up, then Missing HB's idea of everything leaving from Embark beach would be much better. If anything, it may lure back more of the mid ranks so there's a more even skill progression in HA as it could draw in any that may have just moved on to other formats/pve. If it could draw back the mid ranks, then you could have a much better progression and it could kickstart it again.

*lemming* · Jan 21, 2012, 12:04 PM // 12:04

-1. What's the resident elitism-citing minority's preoccupation with HA? Not only is it not even a good format, but it also manages to be more dead than GvG by an order of magnitude.

Oh, and unless you get a ghost or a crystalline, you make less money doing it, too.

0. Why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO does this thread resurface every couple of months?

Same thing goes for this thread as for the previous one - read this post and a couple of Reverend Doctor's posts, since he's already expressed most of what I'm neither articulate nor driven enough to rewrite.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=43
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=134

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

hahaha, I love all these people trying to say that rank discrimination is not a problem, and that people should just get better or just go out and make HA friends.

There is a reason that GW pvp is dying. The people who do it are too exclusive. If you don't want to join up with new or inexperienced people, then fine. Just make sure that you realize that people like you are the reason why so few new people are joining GW pvp (and don't try to blame it on other crap like lack of work ethic among PvEers).

The first word of advice I ever read about getting into GW PvP, back in Spring 2006, was to meet people and make friends.

Just sayin'.

gooeydark · Jan 21, 2012, 12:07 PM // 12:07

The dying PvP scene is not because of elitism itself, but because of the new and inexperienced players spending more time crying about elitism and less time actually making an effort to improve.

Almost every top tier player had the drive to get better. They did this by observing matches, messaging top players asking for advice and guests to their guild/HA group, and most importantly, observing themselves in comparison to better players on observer mode.

All of this, of course, takes a considerable amount of time investment. The way I see it, the newer players trying to come into PvP from PvE expect everything to be handed to them on a fast track silver platter, like they have with their 7 hero teams and a slew of party-wide item buffs.

tldr - We are not the problem. Quit complaining and put in the effort to get better.

lursey · Jan 21, 2012, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

The first word of advice I ever read about getting into GW PvP, back in Spring 2006, was to meet people and make friends.

Just sayin'.

the first rule in pvp - any unfairness is a big NONO... just low no lo...

back in 2006 everyone was new born child, but in 2012, there are big companies like Apple/Microsoft/Google, asking a new born child to compete with big companies in 2012 requires themselves to be a genius in the first place, and that wasn't the case in 2006 where there was no built up enterprises reputation that scare off all the children, this intangible unfairness in 2012 is being overlooked.

2006 - everyone was caveman
2012 - there are billionaires and caveman

the difference is the caveman didn't have to compete or handshaking with billionaires in 2006.

Lithril Ashwalker · Jan 21, 2012, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

The dying PvP scene is not because of elitism itself, but because of the new and inexperienced players spending more time crying about elitism and less time actually making an effort to improve.

Almost every top tier player had the drive to get better. They did this by observing matches, messaging top players asking for advice and guests to their guild/HA group, and most importantly, observing themselves in comparison to better players on observer mode.

All of this, of course, takes a considerable amount of time investment. The way I see it, the newer players trying to come into PvP from PvE expect everything to be handed to them on a fast track silver platter, like they have with their 7 hero teams and a slew of party-wide item buffs.

tldr - We are not the problem. Quit complaining and put in the effort to get better.

how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can they improve? its not like they have a way to practice...and going into the isle of the nameless to sync a shit spike on a defenseless npc isnt gonna do shit, people should be mroe helpful regardless of rank, if a r8 was to die(or higher rank) im sure hed want to teach his secrets to others as a successor. and thats just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing joking, why not make MORE OF THE GOOD PLAYERS?! by helping them?! take a fxn pug once in a while and teach them how to ROCK! find their strongpoints.

in otherwords what im saying is, get off your fatass with "a job at fxn dairy queen" and help someone instead of worrying about your god damn win streak. if i knew more about HA i sure as hell would, im RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin r5 and i try my damndest to teach a few what i know, but its higher ups that prevent this because the same bullshit spam: "glf r8+ to go" i join im r5, ..kick no question asked. because ive seen some kick ASS no ranked, ranked 5,etc....and ive seen some shitty fame farmers r10+...rank is NOT a good way to go.

drkn · Jan 21, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

To solve the problem of grouping up, then Missing HB's idea of everything leaving from Embark beach would be much better. If anything, it may lure back more of the mid ranks so there's a more even skill progression in HA as it could draw in any that may have just moved on to other formats/pve. If it could draw back the mid ranks, then you could have a much better progression and it could kickstart it again.

I wholeheartedly agree that the lack of middle-class is one of the top problems here, and if there were more active mid-rank players, newcomers might have it easier. Then again, if you only grouped everyone at Embark, you'd get eight newbies forming a group, then getting steamrolled by a r10+ group. Sure, you need a thick skin to get into PvP, you need to want to improve and don't care about losing - but then again, two of those eight newbies will drop. Before you find two other players, one will have to go due to real life issues, and some other newbies won't join your team because you have no ranked player (and they, being unranked, will want to only join at least mediocre team, not formed by complete freshmen). Even then, you will only get beaten by r4+ groups that actually played together a bit.
The only way for eight scrubs to get some play, learn, improve and get rank is if they were paired against another group of eight scrubs. And this would require a pretty big surge in HA population, indeed.

Quote:

0. Why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO does this thread resurface every couple of months?

Because it's important to many Guru users, and even if some discussions die out (or get locked for some reason), it still is an issue for the playerbase. The sole fact that the subject of HA comes up every now and then shows that the format might have more players if it was a bit different (either in terms of the current playerbase's attitude or after some changes introduced by ANet).

Quote:

The dying PvP scene is not because of elitism itself, but because of the new and inexperienced players spending more time crying about elitism and less time actually making an effort to improve.

Lursey summed it up really well. A scrub, nowadays, can't make an effort to improve and learn to play a high-tier organised PvP in Guild Wars, because they'd need to either (a) get help from someone already inside the format or (b) form a HUMONGOUS group of like-minded scrubs (and i'm talking dozens, if not hundreds, of people), so that they might get the off chance of fighting each other, and not only get steamrolled by experienced players who got used to actual teamplay.

That said, i already gave up trying to get into HA, after months of trying. No, i have no fraps to back up my claims, but i'm pretty sure there are other wanna-be HAers who gave up - and not after their first loss or after being scowled upon for the first time. The fun that is available after putting time and effort to get good at PvP is simply not worth the time and effort to even get into groups, so that you may try to hone your skills.

Perhaps if RA and HA awarded the same points towards the same rank it would be easier to find a group - you could have shown that you're r7, so even if it was all farmed from RA only, you still know something about PvP. Both arenas might use the same or very similar maps and other variables, so that RA would work as a pre-HA arena, and not a goal in and for itself.

e:
What i find much more interesting than wanna-be PvPers talking about rank discrimination, as well as much more disturbing, are posts from PvPers who claim that PvP in GW is dead. It doesn't have to be if you ever realise what Lursey said above and help others recreate the playerbase. Sure, the total GW community is much smaller than years ago, but then again, more and more people get their HoM high, get their GWAMM, and would like to dabble in PvP - they end up in RA and never try anything else because they can't, even if they truly want to learn, improve and have fun.

e2:
Come to think of it, maybe HA is just broken by design. Maybe ANet assumed there will always be a constant flow of new players, as well as a big number of active mid-ranked players, so that everyone might get into play. With middle-class severely limited and the majority being already quite high ranked, the psychological homeostasis of the format is broken - no one (save several exceptions) can get into the format, and because of that, some of the older, high ranked players drop out (saying that 'HA is dead').
If that's the case, the format surely needs an intervention from the creators - some incentive to make experienced players tutor newcomers, as well as to lure more newbies into HA. I'm not talking about beefing rewards, although it's laughably easy to get a fortune in this game already.
But how about a new title available for people who are already r8+ - if they group with someone r0-r4, they get X points towards the new title, where X is the fame gained by the newbie. This idea is just a sketch, but you see where i'm going.

Zaph · Jan 21, 2012, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Focus on GW2 PvP... leave GW1 PvP alone as it is... nothing can be changed at this point (unless somebody invents time travel and goes back 3 years into past...).

One does not simply try to save the sinking ship... it's sinking ffs!!!

Styxgyan · Jan 21, 2012, 05:12 PM // 17:12

My 2 cents.:

1: Rebuild the tittle.

-It's the only PvP tittle that it hasn't been changed (just curious).
Reason: it's one of the best options to incentivate the game nowdays. I'm not arguing if it's good for high/low ranks (or not).

2: Rebuild the rewards:

-Changing the progression earned fame (there is much less people than in 2005-2006, so much less consecutive maps). Maybe like in RA (step by step) or maybe like in GvG (lower ranked team earns more fame vs. high ranked team than the high ranked team). I know this has been suggested before.
-Little bits of fame per little victories: for example, 0.1 fame per death (one per player and only the first time per map), the hero count as 0.2 fame, and 0.5 per flawless victory.

All of this could be scaled. Also 0.1 fame per point in tactics maps.

3: Rebuild the map sistem:

-6, 8, 10, 12... minutes max. per map (in case of tied the team with more deaths wins and so...).
-In HoH, the winner goes to Underworld again. Think about the impact of this.
-In Hoh, the advantage of the blue team removed.
-Removed the vault map and make HoH like the rest of the maps (consequence of the above).

4: Rebuild the number of players per team:

-Yes. How about 7-man team? Most people think 6-man. And 5-man team like in GW2 lol?
Less people means: easier to gather a group->more time to play; more groups with the same amount of people->more maps played...

Maybe a lot of people will think I'm a dumb suggesting those things, but the fact is that HA is seriously injured. As I said at first, just my 2 cents.

Missing HB · Jan 21, 2012, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Styxgyan

Less people means: easier to gather a group->more time to play; more groups with the same amount of people->more maps played...

Many people don't get this point however, because they will think in terms of balance, while the place clearly needs to be played before we can even think of balancing...

My point is that it would create some new kind of builds and it could be original ... But, it in fact seems that doing anything of this( heroes in HA, PvP rework, requirements, tournaments , etc...) would be admitting that the game is dead and they don't really want to do so in my opinion( and it's quite understandable ..)

Many players in this thread are talking about a way to make new players have fun in PvP.. In PvE we can use 7 heroes, but there isn't any single place in the game where players can face an other with 7 heroes( or even with 2), how ridiculous is this...Where is the link between PvE and PvP if RA( as it was argued in other thread) isn't a friendly place for newcomers anyway...

cormac ap dunn · Jan 21, 2012, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Many people don't get this point however, because they will think in terms of balance, while the place clearly needs to be played before we can even think of balancing...

My point is that it would create some new kind of builds and it could be original ... But, it in fact seems that doing anything of this( heroes in HA, PvP rework, requirements, tournaments , etc...) would be admitting that the game is dead and they don't really want to do so in my opinion( and it's quite understandable ..)

Many players in this thread are talking about a way to make new players have fun in PvP.. In PvE we can use 7 heroes, but there isn't any single place in the game where players can face an other with 7 heroes( or even with 2), how ridiculous is this...Where is the link between PvE and PvP if RA( as it was argued in other thread) isn't a friendly place for newcomers anyway...

I think that is one of the problems, people will always throw in the "balance" card. Seems people fear new builds, innovation, and for that matter any change to the format. As far as it being more newcomer friendly, I'm afraid that still falls on the backs of the current vets. If a new person were to go into HA and try to get into virtually any current group, they are met with a barrage of insults (Witnessed it happen a few times yesterday). I think that is more the reason why the Title change aspect might serve the community better. eliminate the basis for discrimination, and it becomes more accessible. Sure many vets will complain, but in the end don't they already complain about long wait times, dead space in play, lack of attention from the Live Team? Lets be fair, if you were a dev working on this game and saw the abysmal state of HA, would you really care to work on it for the sake of so few? I still think some form of Rank separation or league play would solve more then a few of those issues, but most of the "hardcore" players seem to be threatened by ANY change to the farming of noobs for fun and profit (upstanding folks that they are...)

gooeydark · Jan 21, 2012, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can they improve? its not like they have a way to practice...and going into the isle of the nameless to sync a shit spike on a defenseless npc isnt gonna do shit, people should be mroe helpful regardless of rank, if a r8 was to die(or higher rank) im sure hed want to teach his secrets to others as a successor. and thats just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing joking, why not make MORE OF THE GOOD PLAYERS?! by helping them?! take a fxn pug once in a while and teach them how to ROCK! find their strongpoints.

in otherwords what im saying is, get off your fatass with "a job at fxn dairy queen" and help someone instead of worrying about your god damn win streak. if i knew more about HA i sure as hell would, im RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin r5 and i try my damndest to teach a few what i know, but its higher ups that prevent this because the same bullshit spam: "glf r8+ to go" i join im r5, ..kick no question asked. because ive seen some kick ASS no ranked, ranked 5,etc....and ive seen some shitty fame farmers r10+...rank is NOT a good way to go.

Perhaps you missed this part of my post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

The dying PvP scene is not because of elitism itself, but because of the new and inexperienced players spending more time crying about elitism and less time actually making an effort to improve.

Almost every top tier player had the drive to get better. They did this by observing matches, messaging top players asking for advice and guests to their guild/HA group, and most importantly, observing themselves in comparison to better players on observer mode.

All of this, of course, takes a considerable amount of time investment. The way I see it, the newer players trying to come into PvP from PvE expect everything to be handed to them on a fast track silver platter, like they have with their 7 hero teams and a slew of party-wide item buffs.

tldr - We are not the problem. Quit complaining and put in the effort to get better.

The ARE options available to people who want to learn, and there are most defintely top players willing to help if you ask them. Creating a system that forces top players into lower tier groups is not the solution.

*lemming* · Jan 21, 2012, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can they improve? its not like they have a way to practice...and going into the isle of the nameless to sync a shit spike on a defenseless npc isnt gonna do shit, people should be mroe helpful regardless of rank, if a r8 was to die(or higher rank) im sure hed want to teach his secrets to others as a successor. and thats just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing joking, why not make MORE OF THE GOOD PLAYERS?! by helping them?! take a fxn pug once in a while and teach them how to ROCK! find their strongpoints.

in otherwords what im saying is, get off your fatass with "a job at fxn dairy queen" and help someone instead of worrying about your god damn win streak. if i knew more about HA i sure as hell would, im RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin r5 and i try my damndest to teach a few what i know, but its higher ups that prevent this because the same bullshit spam: "glf r8+ to go" i join im r5, ..kick no question asked. because ive seen some kick ASS no ranked, ranked 5,etc....and ive seen some shitty fame farmers r10+...rank is NOT a good way to go.

I implore you to read this post. Trust me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

the first rule in pvp - any unfairness is a big NONO... just low no lo...

back in 2006 everyone was new born child, but in 2012, there are big companies like Apple/Microsoft/Google, asking a new born child to compete with big companies in 2012 requires themselves to be a genius in the first place, and that wasn't the case in 2006 where there was no built up enterprises reputation that scare off all the children, this intangible unfairness in 2012 is being overlooked.

2006 - everyone was caveman
2012 - there are billionaires and caveman

the difference is the caveman didn't have to compete or handshaking with billionaires in 2006.

You realize that 2006 was a full year after the game's release, right? You realize that Tombs was already populated with r6/9+ groups and that GvG had already had a World Championship, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Because it's important to many Guru users, and even if some discussions die out (or get locked for some reason), it still is an issue for the playerbase. The sole fact that the subject of HA comes up every now and then shows that the format might have more players if it was a bit different (either in terms of the current playerbase's attitude or after some changes introduced by ANet).

It wasn't a rhetorical question. Why would people try to pug HA (a venture doomed to failure, as just about anyone experienced who posts on the topic can and will tell you), then complain about it when it fails? Why would people try to get into HA, period? Just because there's no GvG district doesn't mean that it's harder to get into than HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

I still think some form of Rank separation or league play would solve more then a few of those issues, but most of the "hardcore" players seem to be threatened by ANY change to the farming of noobs for fun and profit (upstanding folks that they are...)

Or it could be, you know, because suggestions by people who don't understand the underlying reasons behind what's going on are flawed.

cormac ap dunn · Jan 21, 2012, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Or it could be, you know, because suggestions by people who don't understand the underlying reasons behind what's going on are flawed.

Or it could be, you know, because people think they understand game balance, and proceed to complain in one thread of the problems , then in another say"don't touch it!". I know, who would do that? Complain about things like skill changes being needed, formats being dead, things like that, and when they get them complain that it isn't what they wanted? Crazy!!!... I get that the handful of "vets"(by the way, don't think we forgot that most of those vets only got past bambi by abusing the hell out of the old IWAY) would want to stay sheltered in their tiny little world of HA, but if the format changes, will they protest? HB died a slow death, sadly, and part of the reason was because a format for the masses was more a format for the few who ran the same builds , against each other endlessly. No one respected what the game was about. and when an option came along allowing for the mass exploitation of the /resign feature, enterprising, albeit wrong, PvEers took advantage. Until that point, HB hadn't seen a 10th of that many people combined since it came out. If hastening the death of HA is the thing players want, then allow it to die with dignity, not as something that the majority of the playerbase views as the dregs of the PvP world, and thats saying something if you look at RA...

Oh and the rant you quoted? doesn't really make the average ranked player seem like anything more then a mere troll with a chip on their shoulder( which i belive is about as accurate a description as can be given)

gooeydark · Jan 21, 2012, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

Or it could be, you know, because people think they understand game balance, and proceed to complain in one thread of the problems , then in another say"don't touch it!". I know, who would do that? Complain about things like skill changes being needed, formats being dead, things like that, and when they get them complain that it isn't what they wanted? Crazy!!!... I get that the handful of "vets"(by the way, don't think we forgot that most of those vets only got past bambi by abusing the hell out of the old IWAY) would want to stay sheltered in their tiny little world of HA, but if the format changes, will they protest? HB died a slow death, sadly, and part of the reason was because a format for the masses was more a format for the few who ran the same builds , against each other endlessly. No one respected what the game was about. and when an option came along allowing for the mass exploitation of the /resign feature, enterprising, albeit wrong, PvEers took advantage. Until that point, HB hadn't seen a 10th of that many people combined since it came out. If hastening the death of HA is the thing players want, then allow it to die with dignity, not as something that the majority of the playerbase views as the dregs of the PvP world, and thats saying something if you look at RA...

Oh and the rant you quoted? doesn't really make the average ranked player seem like anything more then a mere troll with a chip on their shoulder( which i belive is about as accurate a description as can be given)

lol.

We're trying to help you out here, and you just continue to ignore us or write it off and some kind of troll or elitist bigotry. If you're going to keep tossing aside whatever help we try to offer you, then just stop posting and move on with whatever it is you do in Guild Wars or life.

It's like I said before, we are not the problem. It's the low tier players like yourself who cry elitism and want ArenaNet to give them an easy fix. Make an effort, or go home.

cormac ap dunn · Jan 21, 2012, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

lol.

We're trying to help you out here, and you just continue to ignore us or write it off and some kind of troll or elitist bigotry. If you're going to keep tossing aside whatever help we try to offer you, then just stop posting and move on with whatever it is you do in Guild Wars or life.

It's like I said before, we are not the problem. It's the low tier players like yourself who cry elitism and want ArenaNet to give them an easy fix. Make an effort, or go home.

What exactly is the help? Perhaps I missed it when the general concensus from the what? 7 people that actually play on here? Is that you want to leave HA alone, that everyone just needs to get better (read try to catch up to 6+years of grinding) or GTFO? You really are pretty blind to the actuallity of the situation. I watched a brand new person to the game who had made a character go into HA ask a simple enough question (whats my rank and how do I find it?) get trashed, told to altf4, told to go to PvE and leave HA alone, and you think you are productive members of the game? Low tier players are the VAST majority of this game, hell when you look at EVERY other format, they all Dwarf HA. Thats a good thing? Does that make it somehow better? Or special? Nope, it makes it either a waste of resources, or in need of DRASTIC repair. Frankly when you say things like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

It's like I said before, we are not the problem. It's the low tier players like yourself who cry elitism and want ArenaNet to give them an easy fix. Make an effort, or go home.

You look ignorant, rude, and frankly, a horrible representation of our games population. Meh, you only look worse for wear. Now either contribute to the thread ( read that as post ideas on how to FIX HA) or move along. The adults are talking here.

You'll find, that unlike the format you so want to horde, the rest of the world views that sort of response, and behavior, well, childish.

lursey · Jan 21, 2012, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You realize that 2006 was a full year after the game's release, right? You realize that Tombs was already populated with r6/9+ groups and that GvG had already had a World Championship, right?

stated many times from the graveyard threads, it simply just takes too long from caveman to become a billionaire with the current complete collection series than when there was only guild wars: prophecies, which the maps, the skills combinations, etc were totally less complex, plus there was no heroes, players could meet up in pve and form guild easily previously, but now, most of the outposts are zombied with heroes pve players, who they just care about achieving pve stuff, any disturbance is like a nuisance to them instead of joining/picking up into a guild from pve and playing the supposedly original end game feature PVP together, most of the current state are trained up heroes player now I think, which leaving pvp pug is the only option.

At the end of the day, if it is being viewed in other way, pug in HA is a nono, then there can be only reliance from the original guilds to train up new players, since forming a guild and competing from the start is unfair to most players, and once the big original guild stop training, recruiting new players into their guilds, and cutting heads, then the population dies.

ideally in a bell-shaped normal distribution...I wonder if rank 6 could be correctly identified as the middle population in 2006, perhaps in 2012, the most populated part in the distribution are supposedly shifted into the rank 0-1 range, as difficulties and barriers to achieve ranks are significantly higher, however the HA pvp structure continually being maintained its complexity and catering it for the rank 10+ range, there is a wide gap between the expectation from the majority of the players and the developer.

Nonetheless, using rank as a skill indicator is a dumb move, since the intrinsic value in rank shifts from many updates time to time, there is no way to clearly identify who actually plays well beside from actually playing with them, but trying to find players who cares to play pvp is harder than ever because the majority pve players are not trained up for that aspect, leaving players only able to find pvp players in RA/CA, emptied AB, however these arenas are not at par to the complexities of 8 players and multiple objectives maps in HA.

so what can new players do now? Nothing or instead, waiting and relying on one or 2 big HA guilds hopefully won't disband and recruit them.

OR to the extreme, stargazing all the guilds and rank remove and start from the scrap together again, which is highly unlikely for guildwars 1 I suppose.

basically this is the summary of how I picture the grim state of today's guildwars.

Reverend Dr · Jan 21, 2012, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Here is an over 2 year old post talking about a proposed HA update.

Anet doesn't care. There is the problem. Its not players, its not elitism, its the fact that Anet doesn't understand their own game and can't be bothered to make updates. If Anet isn't going to bother updating anything, then making mere suggestions is fruitless and the format and the game itself is doomed for a slow death.