Curse

Fey · Jan 20, 2012, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Iv recently come back to GW after about 2 years break. Prior to the break i PvP'ed hugely, got rank 4, played RA very frequently, TA frequently. Getting a HA group was relatively easy.
Now its impossible, i only see R10+ advertised.
In RA alot of groups instant-resign.
Its very very hard for anyone to progress in PvP in the state its in

Swingline · Jan 20, 2012, 07:56 PM // 19:56

The random format is the best option for HA now. Its too late for anything else.

Lanier · Jan 20, 2012, 07:59 PM // 19:59

hahaha, I love all these people trying to say that rank discrimination is not a problem, and that people should just get better or just go out and make HA friends.

There is a reason that GW pvp is dying. The people who do it are too exclusive. If you don't want to join up with new or inexperienced people, then fine. Just make sure that you realize that people like you are the reason why so few new people are joining GW pvp (and don't try to blame it on other crap like lack of work ethic among PvEers).

Anyway, more on topic:

I would like to see an idea like this implimented in RA first. I am skeptical about how well this would work in an inactive, non-random 8v8 setting, but think it would be really nice for the active, random 4v4 setting that is RA. Make it so that the game only groups up people who are of a similar ranking in RA, and you end up with a win/win situation, since elitists and "pve scrubs" dont have to play with each other, and people get to compete against others with similar amounts of experience.

JONO51 · Jan 20, 2012, 08:07 PM // 20:07

You're focusing on rank too much. It isn't the problem. The people who want to progress DO progress. Everyone else goes back to RA or cries elitism. I mean, this is basically whats going happen with this proposal:

r0-r3 - idiots vs idiots. 50/50 coin toss on who wins. Yay everybody gets a bambi, but nobody really learned much, except what the maps looks like (but not how to play them).

r4-r6 - Mostly idiots vs idiots still. A few people with brains are staring to shine, but the fact that most wins are easy due to nobody knowing how to best play maps and builds means that again, nobody has learned much.

r7+ - Everyone who zerged their way here against idiots is now dropped in with people who are experienced. 95% of people are going to drop out because they're no longer winning 50% of the time like they were against idiots. The people with a brain and the desire to improve are going to advance just like now. Pretty much the r7+ bracket is going to be as popular as it is now (ie not very). Maybe you'll get a short revival when old vets find there are a bunch of new players to farm, but both sets will soon quit again.

The point is, with the current system, its hard to rank up at first. But when you do so, its because you learn and improve and hence win against a r4 group for example. If its all in different rank brackets, then lower ranked people aren't going to have to think much, because nobody else does. They aren't going to have to improve much because nobody else does. All that happens is they gain an arbitrary number after their name.

---

The only thing that will save pvp is more people with the right mindset. The portion that had the right mindset was never that huge to begin with. Considering the fact that the game is losing players left, right and centre, its unlikely that it will be revived (short of say, pvp going f2p, but that in itself would introduce a whole string of new problems).

Mireles · Jan 20, 2012, 08:08 PM // 20:08

The problem with PvP is that its not fun... and even if it was fun it is a system that is full of exploit...

As certain pvpers personally attest to on any pvp suggestion thread seen here... people play for the peen, the exclusivity of being able to exploit the system, and they don't want to share their status with anyone else... That is why it is a keep scrubs out closed system... people have no means "prove" themselves other than hours of getting there @$$ handed to them... and even then most of the time there is no avenue to make your total play time experience readily recognizable... That is not a fun game... "don't expect everything to be easy and work hard" is a good quote for life (or what you treat like life) but not for a game meant to be for enjoyment.

So the question is, should the format be kept the way it is to satisfy the few players that have manage to climb and close high ranks or fix it so the majority of guild wars players can enjoy it?

I am going to assume the answer to that question is "PvP should be made to where the majority of players enjoy it" because these threads keep getting made, and there is few that would argue nothing needs to be changed.

This being said... it probably can't be totally solved without a complete overhaul of the format.... but there are things that can be done to alleviate the symptoms of a dead format...

Manipulate the means of discrimination:

Part of the big problem with find groups is that little number under you name we come to know and love as rank... People that are not readily recognize as elite or experienced have a snowballs chance in hell of finding a group to accept them. Thus stopping their interest before it even began.

For this I would suggest fame should be awarded on the basis of participation and wins of completed matches... Of course wins would rewarded with reasonably more.... but this would give starting players and teams an avenue to make it easy to get into higher rank teams as they are "learning" the amount of discrimination against them lessens....

Limit consecutive win streaks to a single digit number:

Part of the reason it takes so damn long to form a team is because people want it to be absolutely perfect... If there was less focus on hours long streaks... people will find it more productive to take the risk of talking a not so experienced player because there is not high benefit to be had by waiting for a more perfect player for hours long win steaks.

Remove the resign function from all PvP:

Another problem with attitude towards the means of discrimination its easily exploitable by this red resign like syncing that we have.... People don't want to enter a game if they know already its not being played fairly.. Some generally look at PvP titles especially codex as syncer titles and don't feel like its worth their time to enter the PvP system legitimately. Not to mention the addition of PvE rewards has only giving more incentive to exploit the system and hurting the legitimacy of the entire game economy. (but thats a story for another thread)

I realize that some people would say "do you know how much a pain of the ass it is when you bring the wrong skills and exit to reform your team" well that enter button is only meant to be pushed when your ready... if you screwed up... that is the game play it out and try again.

Given that the format itself is a major problem because people don't find it fun or worth their free time... These are simple effort effective solutions that could be put in place to alleviate some of the social symptoms of why the format died

cormac ap dunn · Jan 20, 2012, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

You're focusing on rank too much. It isn't the problem. The people who want to progress DO progress. Everyone else goes back to RA or cries elitism. I mean, this is basically whats going happen with this proposal:

r0-r3 - idiots vs idiots. 50/50 coin toss on who wins. Yay everybody gets a bambi, but nobody really learned much, except what the maps looks like (but not how to play them).

r4-r6 - Mostly idiots vs idiots still. A few people with brains are staring to shine, but the fact that most wins are easy due to nobody knowing how to best play maps and builds means that again, nobody has learned much.

r7+ - Everyone who zerged their way here against idiots is now dropped in with people who are experienced. 95% of people are going to drop out because they're no longer winning 50% of the time like they were against idiots. The people with a brain and the desire to improve are going to advance just like now. Pretty much the r7+ bracket is going to be as popular as it is now (ie not very). Maybe you'll get a short revival when old vets find there are a bunch of new players to farm, but both sets will soon quit again.

The point is, with the current system, its hard to rank up at first. But when you do so, its because you learn and improve and hence win against a r4 group for example. If its all in different rank brackets, then lower ranked people aren't going to have to think much, because nobody else does. They aren't going to have to improve much because nobody else does. All that happens is they gain an arbitrary number after their name.

---

The only thing that will save pvp is more people with the right mindset. The portion that had the right mindset was never that huge to begin with. Considering the fact that the game is losing players left, right and centre, its unlikely that it will be revived (short of say, pvp going f2p, but that in itself would introduce a whole string of new problems).

Thank you, I think you just showed why HA is dead. The "right Mindset" is just elitist BS doublespeak for the exact same thing being said by everyone not rank masturbating or stroking each others ample egos. "NO RANK?!?!?!11! GTFO SCRUB!" is exactly why the VERY small handful of people left ARE the very small handful to begin with. Generally speaking, nobody likes a jerk.

JONO51 · Jan 20, 2012, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

Thank you, I think you just showed why HA is dead. The "right Mindset" is just elitist BS doublespeak for the exact same thing being said by everyone not rank masturbating or stroking each others ample egos. "NO RANK?!?!?!11! GTFO SCRUB!" is exactly why the VERY small handful of people left ARE the very small handful to begin with. Generally speaking, nobody likes a jerk.

.....

......

.......

Come on now, you really don't think every idiot in the game is gonna go in there to get a bambi now they're only going to face other unranked players, most of who are also gonna be bad? Seriously? The lower tiers will be RA 2.0. There's a reason these people never made it over the course of the last 6 years, they don't have the right mindset. As in - You lose. What do you do? Rage on the group? No, you think - why did we lose? Tactics, build, positioning, calling, a weak link in the team? The idiots I'm referring to pay no attention to self improvement or analyzing. These are key aspects to PvP, they were never cut out for HA anyway. All that happens with this is they get a bambi by farming other poor players, they don't LEARN. When they encounter the experienced players they will quit, just like they do now.

Cry elitist all you want, but this is a fact. Its quite clear HA needs people with the right mindset, not people who quit when they encounter good players. It was active and people advanced from nothing to r8+ for what, a good 5 years? Explain that if its all because of elitism herpderp.

It isn't rank. It never was an issue for the 5 years of HA's activity and it isn't now. Its because the game is 6 years old, a sequel is out this year and the playerbase has completely dropped of a cliff. Its dead.

Mireles · Jan 20, 2012, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

.....
Cry elitist all you want, but this is a fact. Its quite clear HA needs people with the right mindset, not people who quit when they encounter good players. It was active and people advanced from nothing to r8+ for what, a good 5 years? Explain that if its all because of elitism herpderp.

It isn't rank. It never was an issue for the 5 years of HA's activity and it isn't now. Its because the game is 6 years old, a sequel is out this year and the playerbase has completely dropped of a cliff. Its dead.

The lack of activity can be directly attributed to rank.... for someone thats been here since the very beginning and used to play HA when it was still in tombs of primeval kings.... before the whole title function intro-ed near the release of factions... it was damn easy to get a team because all you had to do was show up.... They added rank and it was a degenerative effect to what we have now, because it turned to a e-peen focused format.

And people seem to be forgetting this is a damn video game... not a job... not a blood sport... It shouldn't need incentive.. it shouldn't need community organization... it shouldn't need the right attitude to play... the idea that "people just to have the right mind set" is just lunacy.... People don't play things they don't find fun, period... therefore pvp is a broken game, period... to fix things you need to change things....

People are not going to learn much by getting totally dominated... you cant expect people to get rolled and go hmm I lost because of X reason, it isn't that cut and dry... because you don't lose for the same reasons, nor are those reasons even clear to an inexperienced person.

You want people to stop crying elitist stop essentially yelling at people "just be better like me and everything will be fine". and talking about lower ranked people like there idiots... that is the very definition of elitism my friend. your proof for anyone that has ever cried elitism, you ain't nothing special just because you happen to have a number under your name and others don't, and doesn't mean the format shouldn't be tailored to be a video game everyone wants to play..

The Drunkard · Jan 20, 2012, 09:26 PM // 21:26

You want to fix HA? You should be talking to people that playing the game (not people on guru) and creating community events that arise interest and awareness .

-Changing and playing around with formats does not arise community interest. We saw that with Codex.

-Adding new rewards does not arise community interest. We saw this with most formats aside from title-grinding areas, aka JQ/FA.

-Shaking up the meta with skill updates arises little interest for new players, right up until the next cookie-cutter build dominates the meta. We've been seeing this with the flux every month.

I can tell that this thread is going to derail fast into the people who don't believe in rank discrimination vs. the people who do, right up until a mod decides to close it. This happens every. single. time.

lursey · Jan 20, 2012, 09:29 PM // 21:29

you see the problem is
old player see new players noob
new players see old player elite.
there is no middle ground for them to cooperate.

this year april fool idea
friend/guild list disappear
rank remove.
see whether this will help HA for a day....

JONO51 · Jan 20, 2012, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

The lack of activity can be directly attributed to rank.... for someone thats been here since the very beginning and used to play HA when it was still in tombs of primeval kings.... before the whole title function intro-ed near the release of factions... it was damn easy to get a team because all you had to do was show up.... They added rank and it was a degenerative effect to what we have now, because it turned to a e-peen focused format.

Sure rank added a boundary to entry, but that boundary didn't kill it, everyone quitting the game because its old and they're bored of it killed it.

Quote:

And people seem to be forgetting this is a damn video game... not a job... not a blood sport... the idea that "people have to have the right mind set" is just lunacy.... People don't play things they don't find fun, period... therefore pvp is a broken game, period... to fix things you need to change things....

Hence why there's plenty of easy to join & play formats. RA, FA, JQ, AB. theres a big difference in the ask of players between high level and low level play. You can't get by never wanting to put in a lot of time, take advice, analyse and improve hence there is a mindset required for it. If you don't want to put in that effort, that's completely fine and that's why there's plenty of other formats for those who don't.

Quote:

People are not going to learn much by getting totally dominated... you cant expect people to get rolled and go hmm I lost because of X reason, it isn't that cut and dry... because you don't lose for the same reasons, nor are those reasons even clear to an inexperienced person.

You want people to stop crying elitist stop essentially yelling at people "just be better like me and everything will be fine".

They wouldn't be getting totally dominated if there was a steady flow of the right kind of players, because there would be a steady stream of all ranks just like yesteryear. That isn't happening because the game is dead at this point.

cormac ap dunn · Jan 20, 2012, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

Sure rank added a boundary to entry, but that boundary didn't kill it, everyone quitting the game because its old and they're bored of it killed it.

Hence why there's plenty of easy to join & play formats. RA, FA, JQ, AB. theres a big difference in the ask of players between high level and low level play. You can't get by never wanting to put in a lot of time, take advice, analyse and improve hence there is a mindset required for it. If you don't want to put in that effort, that's completely fine and that's why there's plenty of other formats for those who don't.

They wouldn't be getting totally dominated if there was a steady flow of the right kind of players, because there would be a steady stream of all ranks just like yesteryear. That isn't happening because the game is dead at this point.

You sir are proving the point with each post that there IS a problem with the mindset you want.

Swingline · Jan 20, 2012, 09:40 PM // 21:40

The reason organized pvp in GW is dead is because it feels like work. The game is meant to be fun, enjoyable and rewarding. HA has not felt like these since 2006. As I have said before people work and go to school, they have lives. They don't want to waste their game time getting nowhere in HA because it takes forever to find a group, guilds don't take newbies often enough for them to progress and there are 11 maps on the way to HoH if there are no skips.

GWs was meant to have PvP as endgame but that was a mistake. When Anet finally shifted for PvE to have its own endgame they didn't balance out many of the PvP formats to be more casual. This is why JQ/FA/RA reign supreme and GvG/HA are corpses.

Elitism is a problem or else you would see more life in HA. The design of HA makes people act this way though. The title bar moves slower as people rank up and with the next shiny emote is further away than than last one. This makes the higher ranks think the newbies as nothing but liabilities. Its also impossible to win a match with r3s when its mostly populated by r10s.

At this late stage in the game HA requires a significant format change to become active again. The proposed idea by the OP would only make it more hated and Anet would be cursed by the players for it.

Mireles · Jan 20, 2012, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

Sure rank added a boundary to entry, but that boundary didn't kill it, everyone quitting the game because its old and they're bored of it killed it.

Hence why there's plenty of easy to join & play formats. RA, FA, JQ, AB. theres a big difference in the ask of players between high level and low level play. You can't get by never wanting to put in a lot of time, take advice, analyse and improve hence there is a mindset required for it. If you don't want to put in that effort, that's completely fine and that's why there's plenty of other formats for those who don't.

They wouldn't be getting totally dominated if there was a steady flow of the right kind of players, because there would be a steady stream of all ranks just like yesteryear. That isn't happening because the game is dead at this point.

1.) If it was just because of people leaving the game... there would be problem areas in other formats that are non-ranked based.... This has amplified the problem but is not the direct cause.

2.) There is a huge social barrier when it comes to formats like HA and GvG because once people have their defined teams they have no interest in helping others come into the format. Its not that people don't have the right mind set, and it can't be fixed by telling people to get the right mind set, nor is it something anet can fix... this is a problem because have no reasonable and clear cut avenue to improve themselves and become acceptable into higher formats... until there is a solution to simplify the situation.. or give people some kind of in game training to complete... this will remain a problem. There are community events for this but its to little to late. an adjustment of the means of discrimination is required.

3.) I can agree with you there.... this may be a time to find acceptable the idea of awarding fame for participation so people will feel like they are gaining means to fight discrimination and stay. In other words... its completely acceptable to roll over newbs... but if you want them to stay throw them a bone... don't expect many people to be satisfied with just the learning experience of a video game and nothing to show for it in game.

gremlin · Jan 21, 2012, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

You're focusing on rank too much. It isn't the problem. The people who want to progress DO progress. Everyone else goes back to RA or cries elitism. I mean, this is basically whats going happen with this proposal:

r0-r3 - idiots vs idiots. 50/50 coin toss on who wins. Yay everybody gets a bambi, but nobody really learned much, except what the maps looks like (but not how to play them).

r4-r6 - Mostly idiots vs idiots still. A few people with brains are staring to shine, but the fact that most wins are easy due to nobody knowing how to best play maps and builds means that again, nobody has learned much.

r7+ - Everyone who zerged their way here against idiots is now dropped in with people who are experienced. 95% of people are going to drop out because they're no longer winning 50% of the time like they were against idiots. The people with a brain and the desire to improve are going to advance just like now. Pretty much the r7+ bracket is going to be as popular as it is now (ie not very). Maybe you'll get a short revival when old vets find there are a bunch of new players to farm, but both sets will soon quit again.

The point is, with the current system, its hard to rank up at first. But when you do so, its because you learn and improve and hence win against a r4 group for example. If its all in different rank brackets, then lower ranked people aren't going to have to think much, because nobody else does. They aren't going to have to improve much because nobody else does. All that happens is they gain an arbitrary number after their name.

---

The only thing that will save pvp is more people with the right mindset. The portion that had the right mindset was never that huge to begin with. Considering the fact that the game is losing players left, right and centre, its unlikely that it will be revived (short of say, pvp going f2p, but that in itself would introduce a whole string of new problems).

Even with idiots vs idiots eventually one idiot will learn enough to start winning consistently and will move up to harder opponents.
The problem with a totally open pvp often there are some very good people in there and being beaten continuously discourages rather than encourages.

When many of you started pvp some 6+ years ago you began on a level footing and all learned together.
Anyone entering now is likely to come up against players and teams that have such an advantage in experience it will take a very long time to learn much and begin winning.

I think the real reason the older players are against a league or ranking system is that it will remove all the easy wins they get from playing idiots.
Instead every match would be against their peers which is as it should be.

turbo234 · Jan 21, 2012, 01:12 AM // 01:12

bring back 6v6

Pre Warrior Dude · Jan 21, 2012, 01:19 AM // 01:19

It's probably already stated but trying to split districts by rank in a format that's already dead isn't a good idea

Lithril Ashwalker · Jan 21, 2012, 03:12 AM // 03:12

cormac man, i thought itold u this on vent a while ago, i suggested this already and it was shot down. the same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing thing is always mouthed like a parrot from everyone.

"too much to implement"
"too much cause of gw2 they wont do it"
this is a public forum. your job is to post your thoughts and opinions and ideas. NOT to say what goes and does not. but to vote on if u woudl liek it done. THEY decide if it can be done, THEY decide if they WILL do it.

simply

/sign
or /unsign

dont do this for personal gain. do this for the GAME and the community.

"ectos will shot up, HA will be over farmed"

so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING WHAT?!
just so u can run the same damn team build over and over?! which couldnt take any skill at all?! indeed....rage completed u Fxn Muppets!

Saint Scarlet · Jan 21, 2012, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Could always try putting the 3 formats on a rota system. 3 days RA is available then switches to HA for 3 days then CA for the final 3. That way all the PvPers will be funnelled into one format for a limited amount of time, and if they really hate that format they just have to wait a little time(i.e. CA for me, i can go without doing it for 3 days and do JQ/FA instead.)
Although the one major problem with this would be the bonus weekends, but i'm sure Anet could work out a way to either make it applicable for all 3 formats for the weekend(in case of it switching whilst the bonus is running) or having it so that that format is open for the weekend too(i.e. HA bonus weekend falls when CA is on the rota so you get access to both)

Just an idea seeing as the majority of PvPers play in both RA and HA(and to some degree CA).

Missing HB · Jan 21, 2012, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

hahaha, I love all these people trying to say that rank discrimination is not a problem, and that people should just get better or just go out and make HA friends.

There is a reason that GW pvp is dying. The people who do it are too exclusive. If you don't want to join up with new or inexperienced people, then fine. Just make sure that you realize that people like you are the reason why so few new people are joining GW pvp (and don't try to blame it on other crap like lack of work ethic among PvEers).

There's probably a reason as well codex has been empty since the 1st day it was implemented, yet it has nothing to do with rank discrimination. The problem is like someone stated, it's not rank discrimination but about fun...

You can include in " fun" :
- rank discrimination in the form of " it's not fun being rolled by top players 24/7", but even if there was no discrimination, people would complain about pugs getting rolled by guild teams, nothing new...
- not fun waiting hours to find people or to get an opponent while a few guys are syncing codex/gvg/ha permanently and instantly leaving if they see you
- it's not really fun facing the same build on each map
- it's not really fun requiring hours to expect a full run + praying to not get any leaver/disconnect
- halls map 1v1 is completly unfair and isn't fun

The best that could be done, like i said i don't know how many times, would be to use embark bay as a start place for every PvP district.. By then, players will see which formats are played and it will be much easier...

Aside of that, making 1 international districts , removing /resign and making multi launch obvious abuse bannable would be great... But well, you see that's much work...

side note :I'm sorry to say this, or to even talk about hero battles, but it was quite a easy format for PvE'rs to begin and work with, yet not that many did try to play seriously...