Curse

Eevee11 · Feb 24, 2012, 04:51 AM // 04:51

while the WoC content IS hard (people complained about battle for la and it was scaled down quite a bit, and imo that quest really paled in comparison to some of this stuff...just noting that)...i think most people that are complaining, are actually complaining about how much of a repetative slog it is (having to do it twice on every character they have, if theyd like the benefit of having him). I like the idea of having to do it once in HM (like i said i dont want everything just handed to us). but i feel like after we finish it on one character, he can be attained on other chars on the account by talking to him in kaineng center, or doing a quest, or something. people complained razah was too much to get....so it was changed. people complained about bfla being too hard...it was changed. odds are...a lot of the WoC content will be changed too, no matter how many people you gang up on/chase off the forums. :/

Lanier · Feb 24, 2012, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

The poster that was referring to elitism was claiming it was too hard, note, they also never tried it, NM or HM. I feel if you want to voice an opinion about changing something in the game, you must at least try it first. How can one give an opinion about something they have no idea about? That very same poster was not only offered advice, but outright help, and refused it. Then claimed they needed help because of a disability... Disability or not, when you are offered in game help, and refuse it, for whatever reason, but then expect the game to be adjusted around you, that's overwhelmingly foolish. Sorry if that seems elitist, but if you cannot do something,and someone (many people in this case) offers to help you through it, and you ignore it, then expect the world to change for you, I have no pity or sympathy for you.

I wasn't referring to you in particular.

Veldan · Feb 24, 2012, 06:36 AM // 06:36

On the whole "multiple character" thing:

Has it never occured to some people that maybe they are not supposed to finish the whole game in NM and HM on 10 chars? There's no game out there in which completing the whole game on 10 chars is easy or fast. Also, every piece of content is a repetitive slug if you do it 10x2 times, not just WoC. So I see no problems there. Nothing should be changed, those who want to have WoC finished on every character, should play through it on every character.

Eevee11 · Feb 24, 2012, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

On the whole "multiple character" thing:

Has it never occured to some people that maybe they are not supposed to finish the whole game in NM and HM on 10 chars?

Which would be the exact point of finishing it on one character and having him unlocked for the account.

Flameseeker · Feb 24, 2012, 02:43 PM // 14:43

That would be good but i would prefer some kind of quest that the requirement is have zei ri on another character.
This way no amount of wealth could unlock him and people with a whole lot of chars wouldn't have to go through the boring part 1 again.

cormac ap dunn · Feb 24, 2012, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I wasn't referring to you in particular.

I know, just referring to most of our forums posters. The community isn't bad at all, in general its still one of the friendliest forum communities out there.

drkn · Feb 24, 2012, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

On the whole "multiple character" thing:

Has it never occured to some people that maybe they are not supposed to finish the whole game in NM and HM on 10 chars? There's no game out there in which completing the whole game on 10 chars is easy or fast. Also, every piece of content is a repetitive slug if you do it 10x2 times, not just WoC. So I see no problems there. Nothing should be changed, those who want to have WoC finished on every character, should play through it on every character.

I agree with you on the general principle, but ANet gave many pointers that they, in fact, would rather avoid making their game a repetitive and boring slug. I'm not only talking about their words or the fact that farming is totally optional (serves only getting non-obligatory titles rather than gearing/exping up just so you're able to tackle the next location of the game), but also how they handed the HM issue. Just to recap: once you've beaten a campaign in NM on any character on your account, HM is unlocked for every character that reached max level. You don't need to go through the whole NM in order to unlock HM on your alt characters.
The same could apply to WoC - making it possible to start with HM, and complete the whole chain in HM only, after you've beaten NM with any of your characters would certainly help, wouldn't be game-breaking, wouldn't take any challenges away and, overally, would make sense.

InStars · Feb 24, 2012, 06:00 PM // 18:00

WoC: HM is challenging not "insanely hard". There should be a great reward for those who did it.

/notsigned

EPO Bot · Feb 24, 2012, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I finally got him after a week of misery.

It does feel rewarding now.

Gill Halendt · Feb 24, 2012, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by InStars

WoC: HM is challenging not "insanely hard". There should be a great reward for those who did it.

/notsigned

Agree. Sort of.

I found most HM quests not really "hard", but rather poorly designed and usually frustrating, and that doesn't qualify as "challenging" to me. Only the completionist in me motivated me enough to clear all HM quests currently available, WoC included.

That said, Zei Ri looks like a vending machine with a wigged human head on top. The perfect reward for a stupid questline...

EPO Bot · Feb 24, 2012, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Agree. Sort of.

I found most HM quests not really "hard", but rather poorly designed and usually frustrating, and that doesn't qualify as "challenging" to me. Only the completionist in me motivated me enough to clear all HM quests currently available, WoC included.

That said, Zei Ri looks like a vending machine with a wigged human head on top. The perfect reward for a stupid questline...

Hey comon now, i was frustrated like hell, but i never once blamed the developers for my inability to progress. I will definitely put that rit to good use.

Gill Halendt · Feb 24, 2012, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Hey comon now, i was frustrated like hell, but i never once blamed the developers for my inability to progress. I will definitely put that rit to good use.

Not blaming them for my inability to progress - when it comes to WoC, I rarely got stuck - but rather for not making HM something really stimulating to me.

There are multiple ways to increase difficulty in games. Pumping up the numbers is the easiest one, and it's just what they did: HM foes are as idiot as most foes in the game, it's just that they also carry the ability to quite amusing feats, like, wiping your party in an eyeblink.

Once you've found some way to stay alive - more often than not with some trick or environmental exploit - it's just a matter of time before you overcome difficulty.

When it comes to WoC, i found the presence of variable team compositions with smart builds and sinergies quite brilliant, but it's not HM-exclusive.

Slowpokeking · Feb 25, 2012, 01:16 AM // 01:16

I don't understand you already got DOUBLE reward for all HM quests and still asking for so called "great reward"?

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

We're not elitists, we just don't like people to be rewarded without putting effort into the game.

35 quests=not putting effort into the game?

Some of the people are still not getting it, nobody said HM should be toned down and you already got double reward for everything. Finish WoC NM by spending at least 3-5 hours to get a hero is fair. Do you have to finish NF/EotN to unlock some heroes? NO, then why should WoC make an exception?

We got rewarded for 10+ heroes when we finish NF or EotN, you got a question about it?

These people claimed they are not elitists, but 1 sec later they are saying spend at least 3-5 hours finish NM WoC is not putting effort.

Flameseeker · Feb 25, 2012, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

I don't understand you already got DOUBLE reward for all HM quests and still asking for so called "great reward"?

As i said before even if the rewards were 10x higher it probably wouldn't make up for the lost time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

35 quests=not putting effort into the game?

Some of the people are still not getting it, nobody said HM should be toned down and you already got double reward for everything. Finish WoC NM by spending at least 3-5 hours to get a hero is fair. Do you have to finish NF/EotN to unlock some heroes? NO, then why should WoC make an exception?

We got rewarded for 10+ heroes when we finish NF or EotN, you got a question about it?

These people claimed they are not elitists, but 1 sec later they are saying spend at least 3-5 hours finish NM WoC is not putting effort.

Now lets go at this by phases:
1)NF was made to be centered around heroes so they should be easily unlocked for obvious purposes. Only razah as an additional quest since he's not exactly directly related to the story.

2)The main EotN heroes are also all related to the story progress and the other still need some kind of work to get.

3)Regarding WoC: 35 quests is putting effort and you're rewarded an hero for it. In NM you get an assassin which is pretty much useless and in HM you get a rit which can be abused and hence all the ruckus in this thread.
The main reason of this thread is not that WoC HM is hard, or too hard as some apparently claim, but that it takes more time and effort to actually get the rit hero after the useless assassin.
We already have enough firepower from all the other easily obtainable heroes so use them to get the rit that you all seek.

4)I don't know exactly how you define elitist but i see myself as a casual old player. With all this i'm not saying you didn't put effort on those 3-5h you spent on WoC NM but i think Zei Ri is a well deserved reward for the extra effort of doing the task in HM.
Take it as a test of your skill and you'll find a rather pleasing feeling after finally getting him the 1st time after all that work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There are multiple ways to increase difficulty in games. Pumping up the numbers is the easiest one, and it's just what they did: HM foes are as idiot as most foes in the game, it's just that they also carry the ability to quite amusing feats, like, wiping your party in an eyeblink.

Once you've found some way to stay alive - more often than not with some trick or environmental exploit - it's just a matter of time before you overcome difficulty.

When it comes to WoC, i found the presence of variable team compositions with smart builds and sinergies quite brilliant, but it's not HM-exclusive.

Couldn't say better myself. WoC can be done if people just think and are able to adapt.
Like you said, difficulty is created either by numbers, level and the enemy build (AI behavior rarely changes much).
For numbers and level it's just a question of packing a bit more defense and holding strategic advantageous position (pull groups away from each other, use building to avoid projectiles, ...).
Regarding builds it's good to know that the enemies are using some of the overpowered builds we created. Since anything that we create is to counter the mobs, now we just need to create a setup to counter our-selfs.

Slowpokeking · Feb 25, 2012, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

As i said before even if the rewards were 10x higher it probably wouldn't make up for the lost time.

Then don't do it if you think it's not worth the time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

Now lets go at this by phases:
1)NF was made to be centered around heroes so they should be easily unlocked for obvious purposes. Only razah as an additional quest since he's not exactly directly related to the story.

NO, Jin/Sousake, Goren/Norgu, Olias, Zenmi are also optional. That makes 7 of them total.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

2)The main EotN heroes are also all related to the story progress and the other still need some kind of work to get.

NO, Xandra, Kahmu, Haydra and Anton got nothing to do with the main story process, that makes 4 out of 10. Also, Zei Ri is important with the main story of WoC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

3)Regarding WoC: 35 quests is putting effort and you're rewarded an hero for it. In NM you get an assassin which is pretty much useless and in HM you get a rit which can be abused and hence all the ruckus in this thread.

The main reason of this thread is not that WoC HM is hard, or too hard as some apparently claim, but that it takes more time and effort to actually get the rit hero after the useless assassin.

Actually WoC NM already took much more time than most of the other heroes, a useless sin hero is not good enough as reward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

We already have enough firepower from all the other easily obtainable heroes so use them to get the rit that you all seek.

4)I don't know exactly how you define elitist but i see myself as a casual old player. With all this i'm not saying you didn't put effort on those 3-5h you spent on WoC NM but i think Zei Ri is a well deserved reward for the extra effort of doing the task in HM.
Take it as a test of your skill and you'll find a rather pleasing feeling after finally getting him the 1st time after all that work.

Zei Ri should not be require more than 10 hours per char to unlock it's simple.

Flameseeker · Feb 25, 2012, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

NO, Jin/Sousake, Goren/Norgu, Olias, Zenmi are also optional. That makes 7 of them total.

We're playing semantics now just because i didn't point some heroes...
Yes some NF heroes are optional but easy to get for the reason stated before.
If you want me to state the obvious i should also correct that Olias and Zenmai aren't NF heroes, they're multi campaign and since they're not directly story related they also need a side quest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

NO, Xandra, Kahmu, Haydra and Anton got nothing to do with the main story process, that makes 4 out of 10.

This time you probably didn't read everything i clearly state that some heroes require extra work to get, i just didn't point them.

QUOTE=Slowpokeking;5649802]
Actually WoC NM already took much more time than most of the other heroes, a useless sin hero is not good enough as reward.

Zei Ri should not be require more than 10 hours per char to unlock it's simple.[/QUOTE]

Why shouldn't Zei Ri need all that time to unlock?
This is the final part of the game, the least we could hope for is rewards matching the effort.
NM reward is useless and HM is not and you said it should be the other way around, seems logic... (/end sarcasm)

The only thing i can agree is with the 10h per char part. 10h to unlock him the 1st time it's not a problem, but for every other char after that i completely agree that we need some changes.

Slowpokeking · Feb 25, 2012, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

We're playing semantics now just because i didn't point some heroes...
Yes some NF heroes are optional but easy to get for the reason stated before.
If you want me to state the obvious i should also correct that Olias and Zenmai aren't NF heroes, they're multi campaign and since they're not directly story related they also need a side quest.

This time you probably didn't read everything i clearly state that some heroes require extra work to get, i just didn't point them.

Why shouldn't Zei Ri need all that time to unlock?
This is the final part of the game, the least we could hope for is rewards matching the effort.
NM reward is useless and HM is not and you said it should be the other way around, seems logic... (/end sarcasm)

The only thing i can agree is with the 10h per char part. 10h to unlock him the 1st time it's not a problem, but for every other char after that i completely agree that we need some changes.

Zei Ri is related to the main story, why should he require HM to unlock? That does not make sense if you want to talk about the story. I look at all other heroes and it's fair to say spend 3-5 hours finish WoC to get Zei Ri is totally reasonable.

No other hero require HM, both Xandra and Razah don't require that much time.

cormac ap dunn · Feb 25, 2012, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

Zei Ri is related to the main story, why should he require HM to unlock? That does not make sense if you want to talk about the story. I look at all other heroes and it's fair to say spend 3-5 hours finish WoC to get Zei Ri is totally reasonable.

No other hero require HM, both Xandra and Razah don't require that much time.

Well, guess that makes him special then huh? Perhaps he isn't intended to be mass unlocked on all your alts? Perhaps at this stage in the game one would hope you have a main character for a larger portion of content? If you really must have him on all your characters, then you really must be prepared to go through it all again. Remember, no one is forcing you to get it on every character you have. Hell, even the way titles work is that you put the effort on one focused character, not on every single slot you own.

HanSolo · Feb 25, 2012, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

Well, guess that makes him special then huh? Perhaps he isn't intended to be mass unlocked on all your alts? Perhaps at this stage in the game one would hope you have a main character for a larger portion of content? If you really must have him on all your characters, then you really must be prepared to go through it all again. Remember, no one is forcing you to get it on every character you have. Hell, even the way titles work is that you put the effort on one focused character, not on every single slot you own.

Exactly. Was just about to say something close to that.

Swingline · Feb 25, 2012, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Having done WoC HM on 3 characters I can say this... the quests in terms of design and difficulty were done poorly. They were either too hard for the common folk or too easy and the design flaws such as using BiP to lure the NPC from danger in the quest Cleansing Haiju Lagoon and same thing can be done with minions and the luxon NPCs in another quest later in the storyline.

Unfortunately I must /notsign because you don't just get a second rit hero, you get a hero of your choice. You only need 2 rits and this allows you to free razah from his ritualist duties to another mesmer, necro or ele.