Curse

Flameseeker · Feb 22, 2012, 04:55 PM // 16:55

You can find some guys who posted how they did without that kind of AI exploit. If i'm not mistaken there's at least one that explains how they did the cleansing of haiju lagoon (i think it's that one) while actually protecting him.
Other than those protect quests there's not much to exploit from the AI except what we currently do normally.

"Use EVAS to blow up those annoying jade brotherhood bombers, go to the (insert place here) and you'll get some tactical advantage. A certain team setup composed of double panic, aoe eles, (insert whatever here) is advised for this quest."
This is the kind of useful information that you can find in the discussion page. And some even have the trouble of posting pics on their team/placement setup to give additional intel.
Usual tips:
I learned while doing LDoA years ago (before the vanguard quests) of taking full advantage of the terrain. Use it to block projectiles and diminish the incoming damage.
Heroes/Henchs are idiots. They stay in the damage area of chaos storm/sandstorm. Flag them away. They will also run aimlessly towards other groups, keep track on this and force them back as necessary.
Know how to pull, who to target first and when to quit. Pulling groups away makes things safer. Knowing who to kill first makes things easier. Knowing when to quit and run away might save the you from wiping. Sometimes all 3 are done together. You pull mobs away, kill the annoying/overextended guy run away. And repeat if the group is still to big or too difficult.

We already exploit the AI for anything possible and imaginary.
Just look at what types of e-management we use on heroes. Most are interrupts (leech signet) or skills that need to track a monster in a specific condition (waste not want not).
Human players usually don't rely on them because they're too stressful. Besides tracking what you are doing, your heroes position and sometimes microing their skills, you would have to check monsters to see if they're casting or not, if they're attacking or not how much hp they have...
Same reasoning why heroes were removed from pvp.
Bot rupters are just too overpowered since they can easily interrupt 1/4sec skills. Besides they don't have to "scroll" between players so they don't loose effectiveness like a human player with the same build.

Moving the NPC out of the way or purposely bugging a spawn are just added bonus. If they are corrected we'll just find a way to adapt and overcome.

Eimai Paok · Feb 22, 2012, 05:00 PM // 17:00

why ppl need everything free and easy and don't give some effort to achieve something, prob most ppl of them that qq with that kind of stuff they are rly big scrubs
and WoC: HM is not hard as Olle said, and they nerfed tracking the corruption that was kinda hard

ofc
/not singed

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 23, 2012, 01:22 PM // 13:22

i dont even think everything should be easy, just not as hard as WoC HM
then again, on forums named "guru" and called "elite fansite" you can expect it being an elitist fansite (forums)

NOT calling everyone an elitists, as i did mention people who have done it with their heroes only, think its too hard for others (even think i saw a few here, too)

anyway, i have faith in Anet, as they think more about regular and casual players (and dont tell me everyone here is such player, cuz its not... no offense)

what i tried to say is that alot of people who DID WoC HM for 100% think its too hard after all, even after they got all their chars through and got everything they wanted

i dont ask for HM to be easy/NM, i'm asking for this hero to be normal (funny word joke, "Normal" Mode)
let HM rewards be doubled or tripled for all i care, except for this hero

i repeat in case: i dont care about the hero itself, and find it an ugly one
i just wanna make more builds

also: all other heroes only require..... NM (keiran requires solo, but i dont care about him at all, lol)

i just leave this topic with these points, as i think they are enough reasons to make it N(ormal)M hero
just my opinions and thoughts

Riot Narita · Feb 23, 2012, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

That's the advice people get when they think WoC HM is too hard? Teach them ridiculous exploits? Really?

Well, my advice would be: play with other people.

It's a bit like Battle for Lion's Arch (the original, before it was toned down, and before we got seven heroes). Nigh-on impossible H/H, but having just one extra human made it a cakewalk. Well, maybe not a cakewalk - still challenging but not frustratingly hard. I joined PUGs for that mission dozens of times just for the fun of it - and failures were rare.

If you MUST play with heroes only, then yeah - look up the gimmicks, or you're in for a hard ride.

Gli · Feb 23, 2012, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

If you MUST play with heroes only, then yeah - look up the gimmicks, or you're in for a hard ride.

Sure, I look up and use gimmicks if that's what it takes. But you won't see me claiming that the quests are fine as they are when I need to use ridiculous AI exploits to complete them. That's the point I was making.

Admittedly, I never even tried the lagoon/diplomat NPC protection quests legitimately on HM, because I was bored every step of the way repeating everything on HM just for the rewards, and wanted to get it over with as soon as I could.

luin_gunners · Feb 23, 2012, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

let HM rewards be doubled or tripled for all i care, except for this hero

What if, what if we have TWO heroes for hm? I want that peasant in my party, although a tengu is fine too.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 23, 2012, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by luin_gunners

What if, what if we have TWO heroes for hm? I want that peasant in my party, although a tengu is fine too.

i think you get my point, you know, NOT a HM-only hero
i meant (sigh, do i have to explain this?) to say that HM should then have normal rewards, but then 3-5 times more than NM gets, that'd be way more fair than something like a hero, which is made to have fun with and to try to make your own team with

sure, there are merc. heroes, but those are more for roleplaying (at least thats what alot of people do) and for some its a 7 necro (or other prof) team, but since we have only 1 real rit hero you can get on NM, we deserve at least 1 more on NM if looking at other heroes
we have 2 NM mesmer heroes, and razah is optional

let us have at least 2 or 3 real heroes from each prof (and i think they'll give us another mesmer hero someday)

hope i made a better point now

DRGN · Feb 23, 2012, 04:18 PM // 16:18

I still want a hero that you can change to look like a monster. I want the Black Pimp of Arrgh following me 24/7, rolling around like it's nobody's business.

Flameseeker · Feb 23, 2012, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

i dont even think everything should be easy, just not as hard as WoC HM
then again, on forums named "guru" and called "elite fansite" you can expect it being an elitist fansite (forums)

NOT calling everyone an elitists, as i did mention people who have done it with their heroes only, think its too hard for others (even think i saw a few here, too)

anyway, i have faith in Anet, as they think more about regular and casual players (and dont tell me everyone here is such player, cuz its not... no offense)

what i tried to say is that alot of people who DID WoC HM for 100% think its too hard after all, even after they got all their chars through and got everything they wanted

i dont ask for HM to be easy/NM, i'm asking for this hero to be normal (funny word joke, "Normal" Mode)
let HM rewards be doubled or tripled for all i care, except for this hero

i repeat in case: i dont care about the hero itself, and find it an ugly one
i just wanna make more builds

also: all other heroes only require..... NM (keiran requires solo, but i dont care about him at all, lol)

i just leave this topic with these points, as i think they are enough reasons to make it N(ormal)M hero
just my opinions and thoughts

I can't stop looking at the irony here.
You can have Keiran rather easily in NM but as you clearly state you don't care about him since he's "useless". Now for Zei Ri since he's a Rit there's this huge ruckus about how hard WoC HM is.

HM is supposed to be HARD and most isn't. WoC HM is supposed to be and it is (finally ANET got it right). On the other-hand it's not too hard, it's challenging and with a little effort anyone can get it done (and that's the view of most people here that made WoC HM).
Cho's as been toned down as well as corruption. The next one to get hit by the nerf bat will probably be angchu but there's not actual need for it.
There's also people giving enough information about each quest to help those who are still trying and some even try to pug.

People cried about BLA but since i've only done it once back on the 3H+hench, and done it quite easily (1 wipe though), I still can't understand the problem it had.
Now tracking the corruption was a bit insane (i couldn't do it even if meant my life) but got fixed, so no need for more nerfs. And you still "have faith in ANET" for more dumbing down?
The problem with the community is boredom due to the game getting stalled in difficulty. If "discord can't do it nothing can", "the ST can't keep us alive, it's impossible". Think outside the box and retrain yourself, just don't ask to dumb down the game since it's already broken with OP pve skills and hero setups.

And quest rewards will never be good enough. WoC part 1 is boring enough and most of us wouldn't attempt if it wasn't for the lockboxes.
Even so it's way faster to just farm 100e and buy the minis then relying on chance to get them.

So no, i hope ANET won't dumb down WoC neither will make Zei Ri available for the lazy who don't want to have trouble to go through the content at least once.
Build diversity is not an excuse. There's nothing in-game that requires 3 rits to be done.
If you don't want to beat WoC HM you don't deserve him.
If you can't beat WoC HM you should train your skills since it was the broken hero setups and pve skills that probably rusted you (or you're new and never learned some of the basics).

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 23, 2012, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Its all because of lazy people not willing to try or take advice.
if it would have been Miku as a HM reward and Zei Ri for NM nobody would cry about it.

Essence Snow · Feb 23, 2012, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Tbh I only see a few ppl saying it's too hard...not the mass that ya'll are implying. Most merely point out that the grind for multiple characters is very tedious. Ya'll are crying more about the few that say it is hard then anything. Lends me to believe there is a bit of "mine mine mine" going about.

After getting about 2/3 through woc hm on my 5th toon..I simply gave in...I simply wasnt willing to go through it anymore. It was too redundant. Maybe that'll change in time, but with open beta sign ups....I really don't see that happening.

tl;dr crying about ppl complaining....or complaining about ppl crying is ironic to say the least

drkn · Feb 23, 2012, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

i dont even think everything should be easy, just not as hard as WoC HM

I totally agree with you. But, thanks gods!, only WoC HM is as hard as WoC HM, so this part is sorted out.

Quote:

then again, on forums named "guru" and called "elite fansite" you can expect it being an elitist fansite (forums)

You have just failed at pulling off a semantics-based accusation there.

Quote:

anyway, i have faith in Anet, as they think more about regular and casual players

Hard Mode of GW Beyond is NOT designed for regular and casual players. I'm not saying that you have to be a hardcore gamer, but you can't really be a casual either if you want to complete it. It is meant to be hard and it is meant to be for those who want a challenge, for players who treat it more seriously. It is Hard Mode, after all.
And just as i can't beat Castlevania: Lords of Shadow on the hardest settings (still working on it, but i'm pretty much getting owned all the time out there), it's totally alright that not everyone can beat HM WoC. Especially if they spend too much time whining rather than learning from their mistakes, what sometimes happens to me with aforementioned game.

Quote:

what i tried to say is that alot of people who DID WoC HM for 100% think its too hard after all

There are also assloads of people who did WoC HM and think that it is hard, but nowhere being too hard, or broken, or ridiculous. Boring? Yes, at times. Challenging? Sure. Too hard? Nah.
Unless you conduct a very specific research on that matter, pinpointing exactly how many people think that HM WoC is too hard, and why, arguments like that are simply demagogic.

Quote:

i dont ask for HM to be easy/NM, i'm asking for this hero to be normal
[...]
also: all other heroes only require..... NM

So? All other missions require being beaten in xx time for masters in Factions, so following your way of thinking, The Eternal Grove and Gyala Hatchery missions should also require beating the clock for masters.
GW's mechanics is not common law, where previous verdicts influence the contemporary courts. It just doesn't work like that in GW, and in games in general. To say more, i am actually glad that ANet introduced a new way of getting a hero, despite what it is (i'd love to see a new hero after getting X points at Y challenge mission - doable with heroes, but challenging nonetheless).

Quote:

i just wanna make more builds
(keiran requires solo, but i dont care about him at all, lol)

Go get Keiran and make new triple para builds. Why a third rit hero is so wanted if not for his game-breaking sheer power, making the whole game even easier to beat?
Also, if that's really not the case, as an old MtG player, i totally understand the wish to create more builds for fun of developing them, even if they're not particularly useful. But as with MtG, in GW you have to earn the right to make new builds - by unlocking skills, getting tomes, beating campaigns to get heroes... or beating WoC HM.

Quote:

Sure, I look up and use gimmicks if that's what it takes. But you won't see me claiming that the quests are fine as they are when I need to use ridiculous AI exploits to complete them. That's the point I was making.

Trust me, you don't have to break the game's system in order to beat WoC HM. AI exploits are not necessery.
Does playing with other people make it easier? Certainly, especially when they know what they're doing. Does bringing correct, working for this specific occassion builds help? Vastly.
And the latter is probably the biggest problem. Those who can't beat WoC HM usually either (a) fail at some really basic things that one should keep in mind when attempting any HM activity (proper and careful pulling, pre-protting, overall team composition, fleeing when necessery, etc), or (b) bring their typical builds rather then finding out something that'd really work there.
I mean, sure, you may be reluctant to bring properly adjusted Discordway or ST ritualist if it's not what you normally run, but that's just conciously hampering yourself. If you don't use everything that the game offers you in order to ease your pain, it's only your fault you still can't do it.
So, have you tried any meta PvX team build for WoC? Have you tried adjusting any of them, because perhaps WoC requires some special treatment, like more protection than in the common form of the build? Have you brought and used consumables, including DP removals and personal cons? Sure, people might say "using cons is for lame noobs, i won't pop bu", but what if HM WoC is designed so that not-so-hardcore players should buff themselves with consumables of any kind? And, mind you, it would be totally fine, as it is Hard Mode and we're talking about going with heroes only.

WoC HM is not broken by design. It is hard, requiring and challenging, sometimes boring, but far from broken. It may require everything you can amass in order to beat it, including not only your personal player skill and awareness, but also proper builds and the use of cons. And again, that's completely fine.
The only thing to whine about, apart of repetitive first part, might be the length of the whole questline, and being forced to complete such a lengthy trail twice, in NM and HM, to get Zei Ri. And that on each character. But then it's not a problem of difficulty or being awarded with a hero after beating HM.

cormac ap dunn · Feb 23, 2012, 07:17 PM // 19:17

OK folks, this should make everyone in this thread laugh, its from another thread and its just what I think we all needed to see in order to make someones arguements completely voided...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

i havent done WoC with any chars yet, but seen the weapons.... and like always, end greenies arent much to me

i'd rather trade it for a lockbox, i love gifts and such (no, not buying

)
just to open and see what i got, even less useful things (like green rock candies) are fun

anyway, yes, this would do alot good to those endgame items, either being able to sell em, or trade em at some collector for 1 lockbox or such

i'll keep those tears only in case they change em, if i know for 100% sure they wont, i'll delete them

Thats right, the biggest decry to change this reward hasn't even tried it yet... seriously, from now on anyone who even argues with this person might as well just laugh him off as a joke... that was posted today... unbelievable... This troll actually claims something is hard and has NEVER tried it...

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 23, 2012, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

OK folks, this should make everyone in this thread laugh, its from another thread and its just what I think we all needed to see in order to make someones arguements completely voided...

Thats right, the biggest decry to change this reward hasn't even tried it yet... seriously, from now on anyone who even argues with this person might as well just laugh him off as a joke... that was posted today... unbelievable... This troll actually claims something is hard and has NEVER tried it...

1 more post then, cuz this is the reason i wont buy GW2, the community

to you i say: i havent tried it for 100%, cuz i need lots of help, and i only can do hard stuff with help, which has a reason

look at GWO to my blog for more info about that reason, i made it so i wont waste topic space

with this kind of attitude i know why it always was so hard to get help with easier stuff
"do it yourself, its easy"and such, yet people have no idea how angry i can get when my handicaps stop me from even easier things in GW.... even in NM

and not just GW, also RL

i wonder why guru still is an elite fansite, with elitists

am i angry, kinda, but way more disappointed by this community... and its not even against the rules to bully on 1 person with practically the same posts, from so many different people????

ok, i only get here for price checks from now on (and trading), bye......

JONO51 · Feb 23, 2012, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Oh lawd, someone dun goofd.

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 23, 2012, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Oh dear, someone got caught trolling and then leaves us because we are such an elitist community..

good riddance.

Flameseeker · Feb 24, 2012, 03:26 AM // 03:26

We're not elitists, we just don't like people to be rewarded without putting effort into the game.
I don't know your situation but your attitude of asking to dumb down the game just because you can't win isn't the answer.

-how long do you play is the most determinant factor here (and i don't mean how long have you bough the game)
Most people you call elitists may just have way more experience then you and have thousands of hours more invested in GW.
Personally i'm nowhere near elite. My char with most hours played is the one that did ldoa the old way and was months almost without disconnecting just from death lvling.
I have the game for 6 and some years, with some lengthy breaks, and i still don't know left from right in UW. To me it's an achievement not to get lost in my way for smite crawlers much less clearing it even in NM (i think i don't set my feet there in years now, only seen Dhuum from pics).

Also guru isn't an elite site made from/for elitists.
It has elite people that give plenty contributions to new guys and a good bunch of douches that only troll around.
The same is valid for the new guys around here: some ask question about mechanics of the game or common practice tips and some just come to cry about how hard/boring/unfair the game is for the "xyz" reason and to make things easier/faster.

About the community most is just bored for doing the same thing for years.
We like challenges so when we get one we expect that it will be fair but at the same time able to differentiate the players.
Lots of people have a huge amount of wealth due to SCs and powertrading so the "all bow before me i have an obby armor", "look how cool my sup vigor rune is" or "check my ultra rare skin weapon" just doesn't matter so much now (and some like me don't care about that at all).
This kinds of challenges is the only thing that can differentiate the skill level of us players that have been around here for ages.
We expect complete noobs to not be able to get WoC HM done. New players shouldn't get it done right now but come back when they have a bit more experience to test them-selfs. Casual players should find it hard but quickly adapt and overcome with more ease than the new guys. Old time players should use it to clean the rust that has been accumulating. Elite players should break a bit of sweat, probably do some adapting like everyone else, but quickly overcome the difficulties and have no major trouble.

This is how I see WoC HM, a way to make new guys and casual players better and keep the old and elite players sharp.
Zei Ri is just a motivational reward. Without him none would probably tackle the challenge unless other unique rewards were also as good as Zei Ri.

If you personally can't handle it it's not your right to have the game adapt to you, we all have different problems. Some have time constraints, some have the advantage to play several hours while others don't. Some may have technical difficulties (pc just broke/bugged bad internet connection). The worst kind is physical impairment but there's nothing we can do about them. The world isn't fair for any of us so we must adapt to it not the other way around.

Lanier · Feb 24, 2012, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Tbh, there are a lot of elitist douchebags on these forums. Just saying...

Then again, there are a lot of them ingame too, so i guess the guru community is indicative of what you would find in the overall GW community (which is pretty indicative of what you would find in many gaming communities). Being a douchebag seems to be pretty common on the internet, and it is pretty pathetic.

/endrant

thedukesd · Feb 24, 2012, 04:35 AM // 04:35

This topic made me aware that woc hm rewards another hero. Decided to do woc in hm, due to the lack of players I had to do everything with hero.

After first 4 missions in hm it was clear that my hero team is just way way to weak. Spent ~20k on items and runes for 3 of my heroes (i decided to use http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Player_Support (i was the sos and i was using razah as st (basicaly i was micro him cause else he don't do it right)) ). Things clearly improved. Until Raid on Kaineng Center I only used party dp removal and summon stones. Failed Raid on Kaineng Center without cons, did it with cons. Decided to do Raid on Shing Jea Monastery with cons from first try and did it. Failed The Final Confrontation without cons, did it with cons (without Grail of Might, didn't had anymore).

It took me under 30 hours to do it (and in those 30 hours I count the time I was sleeping, without the time I sleeped i think it was ~20-24 hours)

Regarding the optional quests in hm:

Cantha Courier Crisis - forced me to make a new armor set and also I was forced to use every cons that work there (i used a caster and his based armor was a problem)

When Kappa Attack - failed it fast without cons (first coruption location second wave), failed with cons (but i decided to change my build a bit the team setup anyway my decisions proved to be wrong), did it with cons (same setup as in the first attempt without cons)

It's not imposible to do it in HM. But it's not easy and probably will require cons in some cases. Also in some cases you will have to micro 1-3 hero and it will be a good idea to avoid as much as posible fighting 2 mob groups in same time.

Regarding Zei Rei I would actually want to see an alternative way of geting him.

I have no motivation on doing WoC in HM with another char (I did it with only one), also I have no motivation on doing WoC in NM with other chars that I have (I can do it with 5 more). Miku atm is almost useless and I doubt I will use 3 assasin hero in future and regarding Zei Rei atm I use max 1 Rt hero and max 2 Me so in my case I don't really need it. Because the gold imperial weapons don't count for gw2 atm (and I think they won't add them to hom) I don't care about them (if they will add them to hom i will just get one and that's it). The only think I'm interested from WoC is Imperial Panda License but based on how low the drop rate is I will have to buy it.

My personal opinion is that for the average player WoC HM is to hard to do it (one of the reason is cause he will be force to do it with hero and will fail). Basicaly I want to say that it's just to hard for the average player to get Zei Rei.

The only solutions I see to unlock him in other ways:
- unlock him with gold, zcoins or something similar
- new quest that will allow to unlock him (i say new quest cause if u would unlock after one of the already existing nm woc quests then u will have to unlock it to the players that already finished to quests and i think it will be just to hard to do it)

cormac ap dunn · Feb 24, 2012, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Tbh, there are a lot of elitist douchebags on these forums. Just saying...

Then again, there are a lot of them ingame too, so i guess the guru community is indicative of what you would find in the overall GW community (which is pretty indicative of what you would find in many gaming communities). Being a douchebag seems to be pretty common on the internet, and it is pretty pathetic.

/endrant

The poster that was referring to elitism was claiming it was too hard, note, they also never tried it, NM or HM. I feel if you want to voice an opinion about changing something in the game, you must at least try it first. How can one give an opinion about something they have no idea about? That very same poster was not only offered advice, but outright help, and refused it. Then claimed they needed help because of a disability... Disability or not, when you are offered in game help, and refuse it, for whatever reason, but then expect the game to be adjusted around you, that's overwhelmingly foolish. Sorry if that seems elitist, but if you cannot do something,and someone (many people in this case) offers to help you through it, and you ignore it, then expect the world to change for you, I have no pity or sympathy for you.