Curse

MithranArkanere · Feb 21, 2012, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmoebaInfectionTechnique

How about unlocking it using 15 gold coins or 80000 balthazar faction coz i don't like the idea of making myself do hm quests (idc really since a necro/rt is much better)?

Then, to get it while avoiding HM, you'll have to either do Zquests in NM only, or buy the Zcoins from others.

In the same way that having Keiran is a sign that you make Wik+HotN, having Miku is a sing that you did WoC, and having Zei Ri is a sign that you did WoC HM.

It's the same with all other heroes. You don't get them unless you did something.
If you want to unlock it under a certain 'cost', there's already a way.

Buy as many consumables as you can. Resurrecting scrolls, consets, powerstones, summoning stones...

No matter how bad you are in HM, at the end you shouldn't have spent more than the cost of 15 ZCoins in consumables.

What can't change is having to do advance in a story with your character to unlock a hero.

Even with MOX you need to advance and get to the outpost where you'll meet him.

Gli · Feb 21, 2012, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

What can't change is having to do advance in a story with your character to unlock a hero.

We never had to go through the same story twice before.

Veldan · Feb 21, 2012, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

that kinda let people feel being bad at GW only cuz the challenges get harder and harder, and many people cant do it (like myself)

and the problem is? It's good that not everyone can complete all the HM content.

If 100% of the players can complete 100% of the content, the game is way too easy for the more skilled players. This is the reason there's multiple difficulty levels.

And like I said before, nobody *needs* Zei Ri. So there's no problem if you can't complete it.

Tullzinski · Feb 21, 2012, 04:23 PM // 16:23

/Signed

But only for the "HM once unlock for whole acct"

It is just to monotonous for multiple chars, and I ran 22 chars through the CNY quests, 132 total, which is monotony defined. Just 2 chars in WOC NM/HM is 140 quests which are much longer also...Yikes!

Oni-Claire · Feb 21, 2012, 05:23 PM // 17:23

yes then why don't make Duke Barradin in presearing giving everyone a q 7 max dmg 15^50 crystalline?

lol notsignet!

work for it
i know woc hm quest are very hard but meh it's the game
and if u don't like doing hm quest u don't need the 3 rit hero

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 21, 2012, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

and the problem is? It's good that not everyone can complete all the HM content.

If 100% of the players can complete 100% of the content, the game is way too easy for the more skilled players. This is the reason there's multiple difficulty levels.

And like I said before, nobody *needs* Zei Ri. So there's no problem if you can't complete it.

well, the game seems to be dying... at least the social side, there are just a few who will help if they have the time, not to mention the timezone problems

like: hey, i can help you now
other: yea, but i have to sleep now
and thats only IF someone is willing to help in HM, which i havent seen yet
people are like: HM for me done, no more HM WoC for me

so everyone who's not capable should just be left in a corner? what a nice way to attract customers /sarcasm

noone needs that hero, sure... i said i dont mind not having that one, but to have fun, people DO want it

HM was made cuz people were bored of doing NM all time, as they thought it was too easy
HM was NOT made so that the "good" players can have more than the "not-so-good" players

besides, as people pointed out, HM has bigger rewards from just the quests
and i said it a few times: there's lack of help in the community as far as i've seen

also, i dont mind HM having bigger rewards, but not a whole hero, i was thinking about more z coins, money, xp etc

heroes are to make teams with, making builds and trying out heroes combined
and nothing will get hurt if they give both heroes as NM reward
why not? 2 words "mercenary heroes" that would make 1 more hero of each

i'm NOT talking about the fact that they gain money from it, i'm talking about the fact that the gameplay wont get hurt by giving the rit hero as NM reward
thats the truth, otherwise they wouldnt choose money over good gameplay, meaning that IF the gameplay would be damaged/hurt by doing that 1 small favor, then merc. heroes would do worse to the gameplay itself (except for anet's wallets, but bad gameplay would hurt their wallets over time)

gimme now 1 good reason to NOT do this
i have 1 more good one to DO it: make people happy (happy people in MMO's = more money)

also: rare weapon skins can be obtained by doing NM, so thats useless to mention

cormac ap dunn · Feb 21, 2012, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

well, the game seems to be dying... at least the social side, there are just a few who will help if they have the time, not to mention the timezone problems

like: hey, i can help you now
other: yea, but i have to sleep now
and thats only IF someone is willing to help in HM, which i havent seen yet
people are like: HM for me done, no more HM WoC for me

so everyone who's not capable should just be left in a corner? what a nice way to attract customers /sarcasm

noone needs that hero, sure... i said i dont mind not having that one, but to have fun, people DO want it

HM was made cuz people were bored of doing NM all time, as they thought it was too easy
HM was NOT made so that the "good" players can have more than the "not-so-good" players

besides, as people pointed out, HM has bigger rewards from just the quests
and i said it a few times: there's lack of help in the community as far as i've seen

also, i dont mind HM having bigger rewards, but not a whole hero, i was thinking about more z coins, money, xp etc

heroes are to make teams with, making builds and trying out heroes combined
and nothing will get hurt if they give both heroes as NM reward
why not? 2 words "mercenary heroes" that would make 1 more hero of each

i'm NOT talking about the fact that they gain money from it, i'm talking about the fact that the gameplay wont get hurt by giving the rit hero as NM reward
thats the truth, otherwise they wouldnt choose money over good gameplay, meaning that IF the gameplay would be damaged/hurt by doing that 1 small favor, then merc. heroes would do worse to the gameplay itself (except for anet's wallets, but bad gameplay would hurt their wallets over time)

gimme now 1 good reason to NOT do this
i have 1 more good one to DO it: make people happy (happy people in MMO's = more money)

also: rare weapon skins can be obtained by doing NM, so thats useless to mention

Plenty of people have offered to help you on this forum alone. At this rate your a broken record. As with most threads, you ignore everyone , and for some odd reason believe no one has offered a solution. Either you have a serious problem understanding the language or a serious problem with not getting your way. Want 1 good reason NOT to do it? does it matter what ANYONE says? we all know you will attempt to invalidate it, my request give me one GOOD reason this should be done? Seeing as plenty of people have gotten him so far give me just one GOOD reason this should be done, no 'because it doesn't hurt anyone', it doesn't hurt anyone as it is. Leaving him as a HM reward hurts nothing in the game as much as changing him, so I say why not leave it the way it is? It makes lots of people happy that he IS a HM reward, so guess your reasoning there must be invalid.

HanSolo · Feb 21, 2012, 11:41 PM // 23:41

If you want the hero, do the quests. If you can't do em, figure out how. I don't understand why this is such an issue lol. I guess I agree with the thing about having it unlocked account-wide after the first completion(through another, shorter quest line or something), but I don't know really. It's about time there was something actually difficult to get in the game.

Flameseeker · Feb 22, 2012, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

well, the game seems to be dying... at least the social side, there are just a few who will help if they have the time, not to mention the timezone problems

like: hey, i can help you now
other: yea, but i have to sleep now
and thats only IF someone is willing to help in HM, which i havent seen yet
people are like: HM for me done, no more HM WoC for me

People don't play much with each other people because of the few that are complete morons. I usually never fail a campaign mission and in the one time i though of helping a guy getting rid of abaddon HM (back on the 3 hero limit days) I got an utter and complete failure (and that wasn't the 2nd or 3rd time doing it).
There are other well explained examples where the 1 moron on your team screws up the fun for everyone else so most of us prefer to avoid people as much as we can regardless of timezone.

Still, for the two mosts problematic quests quests (cho and angchu) it's not that hard to find some help, if you wait a bit you can find people at the outpost to do either of those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

HM was made cuz people were bored of doing NM all time, as they thought it was too easy
HM was NOT made so that the "good" players can have more than the "not-so-good" players

besides, as people pointed out, HM has bigger rewards from just the quests
and i said it a few times: there's lack of help in the community as far as i've seen

also, i dont mind HM having bigger rewards, but not a whole hero, i was thinking about more z coins, money, xp etc

Yes HM quests were made because people are bored but unless the reward and challenge are good no-one will do them (unless they're good lorewise).
Look at AB, its empty not because it isn't fun or challenging but because of the rewards suck and has a huge waiting time.
And what lack of help by the community? We might not group much but the wiki is full of tips on how to do them. Read, learn and overcome the difficulties.
And the hero reward is not suitable?
Exp? It's useless i got 80M exp on a 8 month char so if i would need cons i would be set for life.
Zcoins? If needed them i would do Zquests/bounty/vanquish with my 14 chars.
Money? The money anyone would lose in the time they were doing WoC HM instead of farming or doing SCs would be at least 10x the reward money.
Also as stated many times, another Rit hero gives no actual advantage to any player. So even if a few of the players can't get him they're in no way penalized for that.

Summing everything in few words:
If you want him rise up to the challenge.

Essence Snow · Feb 22, 2012, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

another Rit hero gives no actual advantage to any player. So even if a few of the players can't get him they're in no way penalized for that.

I beg to differ...Another "usefull" hero gives one an advatage that they have more options. Notably since Razah can change profs...having 2 rits w/o razah opens up a significant amount of team compositions that are very effective. In the same way that merch heros are an advantage so is another "usefull" hero.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 22, 2012, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

It makes lots of people happy that he IS a HM reward, so guess your reasoning there must be invalid.

ehm..... change that into "It makes lots of people happy that there is a HM reward, so guess your reasoning there must be invalid."

my reasoning invalid? why are so many people NOT playing it on HM then?
and only cuz a few here know how to do, doesnt mean there's lots of people who still play GW these days that do it

you only look at your friends (maybe) and on forums, but there's enough people who already quit the game again (maybe continue their new games), cuz HM is impossible, and not talking about people who are as bad as i am (for my own reasons), but those who did lots of dungeons HM even with 1 or 2 afk-ers, even slavers HM and other hard places HM

even people i seen who done it HM with their chars say its too hard
dont tell me you didnt see people who made it through, and still say its hard

enough people who might come back for something less hard than insane WoC HM = enough reasons to make heroes being "Normal"

tenderpoison · Feb 22, 2012, 11:47 AM // 11:47

@Ayuhmii Shanbwa

"cuz HM is impossible" - wtf? How and since when is HM impossible? Where do you come up with this? More people finished WoC HM - I repeat - MORE people (I don't know how many finished it HM and how many started, but didn't finish it HM, so I won't start with all kind of crappy numbers) - so how's that impossible then? I think you don't wanna read or don't know the meaning of HM, so lemme say that again for you : HM means Hard Mode, as in HARD MODE - as in - it's supposed to be harder than NM. You CAN'T say IMPOSSIBLE just because you can't do it. As long as other people can do it, then it's not impossible. Do it or don't! It's as easy as that.

"ehm..... change that into "It makes lots of people happy that there is a HM reward, so guess your reasoning there must be invalid."" - as in I should be happy that there's any HM reward, meaning it doesn't matter which reward would that be? So I should be happy if after finishing WoC HM I would be rewarded with 2 greens I suppose? Or maybe 5k would do it? Zei Ri as an HM reward is just fine. If I or anyone else wants it, go for it. Anything you need is at your disposal. And as I stated before, if you're playing just for fun, you don't need Zei Ri.

"even people i seen who done it HM with their chars say its too hard
dont tell me you didnt see people who made it through, and still say its hard" - I'm one of them. Finished it now on my sin and mesmer. Yeah, it's hard. Harder then NM (sometimes easier than NM - I thought Raid on SJM was easier on HM than on NM, but that's just me maybe). So? Isn't that what HM means - HARD Mode?

How about they make Zei Ri available for anyone after doing a quest which asks you to kill a level 0 foe? Would that make you happy? You know, get out of SJM, spit at something and poof - Zei Ri unlocked! I wish I would be the one who makes that decision - I would unlock everything for everyone just for one day. And everyone would have 1 billion unded Kanaxais and Pandas and billions of ecto and at least 175.352 heroes that could help them through any campaign. I bet everyone would be happy.

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 22, 2012, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

ehm..... change that into "It makes lots of people happy that there is a HM reward, so guess your reasoning there must be invalid."

my reasoning invalid? why are so many people NOT playing it on HM then?
and only cuz a few here know how to do, doesnt mean there's lots of people who still play GW these days that do it

you only look at your friends (maybe) and on forums, but there's enough people who already quit the game again (maybe continue their new games), cuz HM is impossible, and not talking about people who are as bad as i am (for my own reasons), but those who did lots of dungeons HM even with 1 or 2 afk-ers, even slavers HM and other hard places HM

even people i seen who done it HM with their chars say its too hard
dont tell me you didnt see people who made it through, and still say its hard

enough people who might come back for something less hard than insane WoC HM = enough reasons to make heroes being "Normal"

It is because of people like you this game has degenerated into the skill-less buttonbashing that it is today.
You have ignored everyone who wanted to help you or give you advice in this thread, everyone disagreeing with you showing valid points you label as elite and also ignore them, just to shout your own lazy ass opinion into the open.

Either accept the multiple offers to help you in this thread, or just stop posting here. You are unable to contribute anything meaningful.
At least the other people that want to dumb the way of acquiring Zei Ri down were willing to discuss and had valid arguments/took a close look at the arguments of the people that do not want any changes to Zei Ri.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 22, 2012, 01:39 PM // 13:39

i thought people wouldnt be this litterally, but the "impossible" means for most people i've seen, as in "way too hard for regular players"

and be honest, most used meta builds
i mean, using own builds (NOT own versions of a certain build, which you just pvx-ed and changed a bit) is really something people should try, and THEN see how it works out

90% of the "own" builds i've seen were copies of pvx modified a bit

anyway, not here to discuss that too, just pointing out

i prolly have missed the posts which said "i help you" as i was mostly reading the other opinions and thoughts about WoC
i'll check them soon, then

weird that people keep hammering on my opinions and what i've seen
i said millions of times "i've seen most people quit cuz it was too hard, and those who made it through, still think its too hard"

i never said "noone has ever made it through" so i thought you'd understand.... but not i see

Flameseeker · Feb 22, 2012, 02:34 PM // 14:34

HM is supposed to be HARD not a walk in the park. Don't confuse WoC HM with the regular HM you're used to since it's just a clump of mobs with more hp and level but the same crappy bars.
I still think WoC HM is hard but not impossible, and last time i check impossible doesn't mean some can't do something it means none can do it. When some people can't do it we call it hard, when depends on dumb luck we call it ridiculous (hard).
"way to hard for regular players" i read as "i'm to lazy to learn and get better, dumb this down and give me the reward"

And in terms of using meta builds, what do you expect we would run? Eliteless bars with the most unused skills?
We'll use the builds that display the best advantage to a given situation and it will usually lead to some some kind of pvx modified skill set. There's a load of builds based on discord, panic, WoH, UA (want me to continue) and they will all fall under meta just because of their respective elite skill.
Besides if you don't like running meta builds why do you need the 3rd rit hero. And don't answer that it's useful just because it will enable more build diversity. 3 rits are in no way gamebreaking, you already have 3 easy necros and 2 mesmers to turn on easy mode.

tenderpoison · Feb 22, 2012, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

HM is supposed to be HARD not a walk in the park. Don't confuse WoC HM with the regular HM you're used to since it's just a clump of mobs with more hp and level but the same crappy bars.
I still think WoC HM is hard but not impossible, and last time i check impossible doesn't mean some can't do something it means none can do it. When some people can't do it we call it hard, when depends on dumb luck we call it ridiculous (hard).
"way to hard for regular players" i read as "i'm to lazy to learn and get better, dumb this down and give me the reward"

And in terms of using meta builds, what do you expect we would run? Eliteless bars with the most unused skills?
We'll use the builds that display the best advantage to a given situation and it will usually lead to some some kind of pvx modified skill set. There's a load of builds based on discord, panic, WoH, UA (want me to continue) and they will all fall under meta just because of their respective elite skill.
Besides if you don't like running meta builds why do you need the 3rd rit hero. And don't answer that it's useful just because it will enable more build diversity. 3 rits are in no way gamebreaking, you already have 3 easy necros and 2 mesmers to turn on easy mode.

This. Lol. Just what I wanted to say, but thought a little bit about it, since I thought it would be too harsh. xD How about pm'ing some of the posters here and asking for their help? Did u also try that? Or...*revelation* - how about reading some of the wiki suggestions? I found some of them really useful - like protecting the kurz/lux diplomats using an MM and luring them to a certain location or like in Haiju Lagoon, when I BiP-ed the heck out of me and so on. Happy reading, happy pm'ing & happy hunting!

P.S. You don't have to come up with some breaking builds or use pvx builds, just something in between that you find suitable for you and your team composition.

drkn · Feb 22, 2012, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

i thought people wouldnt be this litterally, but the "impossible" means for most people i've seen, as in "way too hard for regular players"

Hard Mode in Guild Wars is not for "regular players", just as Nightmare in Doom wasn't for regular players, just as Titan Mode in God of War is not for regular players. It's for enthusiasts who want a challenge and who enjoy learning the game's mechanics and then beating it, on its own rules.

Quote:

and be honest, most used meta builds
i mean, using own builds (NOT own versions of a certain build, which you just pvx-ed and changed a bit) is really something people should try, and THEN see how it works out

While builds are 90% of the success during most tasks in GW, it's not true for a really hard encounter, like HM DoA, or, as it seems, HM WoC.
Besides mindlessly copying builds from PvX, one needs a certain understanding of that build; a level of fluency and ability with any build is required, some experience in less requiring locations. It's not enough to load a meta build and then go in, playing just as you would with your own, regular build.
More so, understanding and carefully using, or even exploiting, the mechanics of the game is at least as important as the builds when it comes to the hard stuff. If you struggle to achieve something despite going in with working builds (as proven by those who managed to beat the same task), and you even understand and can properly manage those builds, the problem might be much more fundamental. Are you pulling properly? Do you even attempt to corner-block mobs, to render most rangers and projectile-based spells useless? Do you micromanage your heroes, flagging them and using their skills when it's needed? Maybe your overall tactics is not working against that task - and i'm not saying it's generally wrong, just not working when it comes to this specific quest/mission/dungeon. Maybe if you changed your approach, tried something completely new, you'd be better off.
And you don't need to always rely on the meta builds. I remember having troubles in HM Rragar's, long before i started using Discordway, running always with what i had come up with. So i tried trapping - i brought a ranger hero, for the first time ever outside of Margrid-required missions, and used traps on corners, to render melee mobs useless this way, and to block all projectiles using walls. Is it meta? No. Is it fast or strong? No. Did it work? Yes, even though i wiped occassionally.

[offtopic]

Quote:

i prolly have missed the posts which said "i help you" as i was mostly reading the other opinions and thoughts about WoC

I, for one, would never offer help to someone whining that something is too hard, without putting enough input on their own side, and then coming with specific problems, like "i'm running this and this and this on my heroes, as you can see in this very nicely taken screenshot, and i'm using those consumables, this is my tactic, but whatever i do, i keep wiping at this or that point". Just saying "it's too hard for us, non-hardcore players" is being ridiculous, and nothing more.
[/offtopic]

Quote:

i said millions of times "i've seen most people quit cuz it was too hard, and those who made it through, still think its too hard"

It's not too hard, in my opinion. It is hard, and thus challenging, but this is why i like it. The first part of WoC is horridly boring, and this is the biggest reason why people quit it. Even later it's not superb immersing and captivating, especially for someone who have already played for several years.
As Flameseeker noted, if something is breaking the natural game's mechanics in order to create artificial, luck-based difficulty, we say it's too hard, or simply ridiculous and stupid. If you had to resign 50 times before a specific spawn of monsters occurs, letting you to complete the quest, then it would be dumb and too hard. If you had to use all your cosmic luck in order to even be able to beat a challenge, it wouldn't be a challenge, but a broken design. It's not the case with WoC. Sure, some spawns are harder than others, and a weak player might substantially notice it, but you don't have to retry over and over, or be lucky not to aggro that next group and wipe.
So no, it's not too hard and it's not a broken design, difficulty-wise. WoC has other problems - the first part being tedious, the need to beat whole NM and HM lines in order to get a hero, and on every character you want... But being 'too hard' is not one of them.

Gli · Feb 22, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenderpoison

Or...*revelation* - how about reading some of the wiki suggestions? I found some of them really useful - like protecting the kurz/lux diplomats using an MM and luring them to a certain location or like in Haiju Lagoon, when I BiP-ed the heck out of me and so on.

That's the advice people get when they think WoC HM is too hard? Teach them ridiculous exploits? Really?

I guess the difficulty is just fine then, as long as there are moronic AI exploits around to avoid the actual point of the quests. Game on!

tenderpoison · Feb 22, 2012, 03:43 PM // 15:43

"Teach them ridiculous exploits? Really?" - yeah, really. That's an advice, among many other advices people on this thread gave. It's a suggestion I didn't come up with, they have it on wiki; I just used it, it worked for me, as I know for sure it worked for a lot of people, so... Your point being that if u go beyond the exploits, those are really hard quests? I didn't say that's not true and never stated that. I merely said that all the information to complete WoC HM is available for everyone. One way or another. If you can beat those without using the exploits, then I bow before you and nothing much. They are hard quests, especially if someone isn't exploiting, but as long as you can exploit...what the heck? Still...we're only talking about 3-4 quests in a VERY long quest chain. Wiki has suggestions for most quests I think. And if not wiki, u can always search around guru. I'm pretty sure anyone will find some good information about the quest they're stuck on. If you have a better idea for someone who can't finish WoC HM using different builds with help and everything, oh mighty one, then please do tell. "Game on!"

Brega · Feb 22, 2012, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

The issue with this is that it contradicts the very essence of the Hard mode only quests - which WoC's HM quests are obviously a part of - which is to provide additional content for those who wish to complete it.

While no one is forcing folks to get Zei, having Zei available only to those who do the HM quests is enticing to the point of indirectly forcing folks to do those quests. Which is a bad move based on the original design of HM quests.

The original design was to be "top of the top" - something that only the best players, who always complain things are too easy, would be able to enjoy doing. This is what the Test Krewe were told when testing the Titan quests' HM versions. And they were optional 100% of the way without ever giving rewards that couldn't be obtained elsewhere.

Until part 3 of WoC, where they nerfed the HM quests, this was true.

Whether or not Zei is available in NM is irrelevant at this point, imo. The fact was that they made him available only in HM, and in turn was forced to do the same thing that they were forced to do for the Battle of Lion's Arch so as to make new content available to players.

I just hope they revert to the original thought of the HM quests - giving no unique rewards, but more of the better side of pre-existing rewards. And in turn, making them challenges and keeping them challenges. Even if 80% of the playerbase can't beat them - it won't matter because they wouldn't have to, unless they're completionists to the point of being unable to live without completing something (and no one is that).

Since Konig said it so well ill just let him say it for me too.

I do think that it is worth saying that given Anet's history of caving in to those who cry loudest, that sooner or later this will likely get changed.

/don't care