Curse

tummlykins · Feb 19, 2012, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I agree he should be available after NM, not because I think it's "too much work" (anything in a game which is defined by the word work should be purged as bad game design) but because HM is a niche offering. It pushes people into specific builds and play styles and a lot of people simply don't want anything to do with it - not because it's too hard, but because it changes the game from something they enjoy playing into something that's a chore and they despise because they can't play how they want to play.

HM should never have rewards unique from those offered in NM. They should never have given a hero as an exclusive reward for HM players.

Eevee11 · Feb 19, 2012, 06:15 AM // 06:15

ehhh, not sure if i wanna "sign" or not.

i admit i do not enjoy the WoC content very much. i went through it in NM and i feel like thats enough. knowing i have to do it all TWICE...on EVERY one of my characters...does not sound very appealing. :/

but i also dont want everything just handed to us.

i feel like the way they did it...NM/HM...was a kinda dumb way to make it seem like there's much more content than there actually is. to get the heros should just be two quest chains seperate from the main one. or...reverse them...give the rit for NM so he can help with the slog through HM to get Miku, lol. >.>

Markaedw · Feb 19, 2012, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eevee11

i feel like the way they did it...NM/HM...was a kinda dumb way to make it seem like there's much more content than there actually is. to get the heros should just be two quest chains seperate from the main one. or...reverse them...give the rit for NM so he can help with the slog through HM to get Miku, lol. >.>

Then we would be complaining how lame the HM reward is.

Wandering Hades · Feb 19, 2012, 10:22 PM // 22:22

stop crying and do it. you work for what you want.

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 19, 2012, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wandering Hades

stop crying and do it. you work for what you want.

This is my opinion in a nutshell.
And for those saying its to much work: I want Zei Ri, so I do WoC nm and hm on all my 7 pve chars.

For those saying they can't group: PM me ingame, I have a few characters that have to start woc yet, and a few not very far in.
I am happy to party up with anyone who wants to do so ( IGN = my forum username)

For those saying its to hard: I am more then happy to share my knowledge about builds, quests, positioning and everything else concering WoC to help you.

As long as you put yourself together and convince yourself to play through the content.

tenderpoison · Feb 20, 2012, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I don't think anyone will want to take you up for your offer to play with you when you start off your reply with such language.

Don't get me wrong, but that's english I'm writing in. At least that's what I thought. Second - I was nearly saying that people should just try doing WoC HM more. Most people just quit after get their asses kicked once or twice. Most people just use meta and expect to work wonders and if they don't, they're like "if discord can't do it, nothing can do it", most people get their asses kicked and register here & start complaining. Group with people, friends, guildies, allies, ask for help instead of just whining. And no, I don't care if anyone will pm me, asking to accompany them or not. I did it and will continue to do so on all my chars. No complaints, just try and finish entire content the best way I can & know. If other people could finish it, so could I. That's what friends are for.

Happy hunting everyone!

Veldan · Feb 20, 2012, 07:20 AM // 07:20

/notsigned

HM having a special reward is perfectly fine. Nobody *needs* the new Rt hero, since the whole game is heroable without it. Therefore, it's perfectly fine if not everyone gets him.

People who think they are entitled to every reward in the game by facerolling through the NM content have the wrong mentality imo.

Missing HB · Feb 20, 2012, 08:17 AM // 08:17

/notsigned

Although it's more likely luck mode than hard mode, Hard Mode is by definition supposed to be harder and thus has it's own reward.. On any game today, you have achievements if you beat the game in easy mode but as well if you beat it in the highest difficulty, so it's fine..
Besides, i don't believe that hero is really a must and justify introducing him without finishing HM( if it was about unlocking an outpost or a mini-game, sure... but not about this)

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 20, 2012, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

/notsigned

HM having a special reward is perfectly fine. Nobody *needs* the new Rt hero, since the whole game is heroable without it. Therefore, it's perfectly fine if not everyone gets him.

People who think they are entitled to every reward in the game by facerolling through the NM content have the wrong mentality imo.

love that bolded part, as thats all what some people do

as alot of people have said (and not just here) WoC is NOT easy, especially HM
people i know who have done like everything in HM pretty easily found WoC HM too hard

HM is, and should be, an extra to those who have done everything in the game on NM already, NOT a next content, or way of playing

HM has been made most likely cuz people said the game (without HM) was too easy, which was their own fault, as most have used pvx as their faceroll builds, and now they want the game even harder AND want to be rewarded more than NM players do, while they want:

1. HM, so everything is harder
2. rewards for HM

thats asking rewards for something people gained already
HM gained its own titles, now must have its own hero too? why?

as for WoC itself:
challenges are fine to me, but something this hard is insane
sure, some people think its easy, but thats always

think about it, if they reward HM even more (like this) then people who think its too hard (which is the majority right now) will quit the game even sooner

let the hero then be unlockable with zaishen coins, as secondary way to get it, like 30 gold z coins would do it

i dont get why people want HM AND a reward for something they got
getting a reward for a reward they got?

i mean, zaishen quests have a normal NM rewards, which gives you z coins already, its not like you only get money and xp for NM z quests, less, but still get them

do WoC a 2nd time and gain 2nd hero, or let us get the rit hero with z coins, fair to everyone who doesnt play HM as they find it way too hard, especially WoC on HM

small note: i dont care, as i have xandra and razah, and have enough with those 2, and i think the 3rd rit hero is too ugly, lol
and its just more fun to have all heroes, but to do whole WoC on HM, which is insane.... no thx

its so hard that noone really helps me anymore, even those who have helped me with other HM stuff, when i needed help

Veldan · Feb 20, 2012, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

love that bolded part, as thats all what some people do

as alot of people have said (and not just here) WoC is NOT easy, especially HM
people i know who have done like everything in HM pretty easily found WoC HM too hard

Too hard? I ran through it all with a group of 7 heroes. No PvX builds, I just made my own builds and adapted them to the situation.

People who find it Too Hard probably want to complete everything at once, and don't have the endurance to try again. I don't mind trying something 15 times, in fact I prefer finishing something after 15 tries over making it first try. It means there is challenge.

The only quest I found "too hard" (even though I also completed this with my hero group) was Tracking the Corruption, which got nerfed last update. I don't know how it is now, since I can't get the quest again, but I assume they made it in line with the other quests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

HM gained its own titles, now must have its own hero too? why?

For the same reason that NM got it. The general reason that content gives a reward at the end, in online games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

its so hard that noone really helps me anymore, even those who have helped me with other HM stuff, when i needed help

Try it with heroes, I found it that easier sometimes because you can manage them all yourself, as in skill usage and position flagging. If you play with other players you need to make sure the teamplay is really good, because if two people do different things it can easily mean wiping.

drkn · Feb 20, 2012, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

I agree he should be available after NM, not because I think it's "too much work" (anything in a game which is defined by the word work should be purged as bad game design) but because HM is a niche offering. It pushes people into specific builds and play styles and a lot of people simply don't want anything to do with it - not because it's too hard, but because it changes the game from something they enjoy playing into something that's a chore and they despise because they can't play how they want to play.

Sorry, but that's a super silly argument. Getting Zei Ri as a reward for beating WoC HM is perfectly comparable to getting an additional gold trophy (or unlocking better achievement, or getting more points in some other ranking) in offline games like God of War or even Starcraft 2, after beating said game on the hardest settings. Beating GoW on Titan Mode does require a specific gamestyle in your mind - the one that puts you at the top of your possibilities, using everything you can and keeping your health and mana bars in mind. Same with the hard mode of any strategy games - the AI gets better, the resources are scarce, and the game requires you to utilize all your skills, (micro)manage your units, as well as mind your builds (especially in games like SC).
And it's perfectly fine to get an additional, not only bigger, reward, if you manage to beat the hardest difficulty, giving your best in the way it was supposed to be beaten, and not facerolling with Carriers to your satisfaction.
The only difference is that in MMO games, bigger rewards for a bunch of players may have its indirect impact on the whole community. If we were to get special weapons with more mods after beating WoC HM, i'd understand the problem, because it'd break the game and it'd require people to grind HM WoC if they want to stay at competitive level with others. As it is now, if i get an additional rit hero, it won't break your gaming experience, it won't make your game any worse or harder (it might actually make it easier if you group with me and i use my heroes). So it's just like with trophies for beating hard mode in God of War.

I totally agree that the repetitivness of WoC is a problem. First of all, the first part of WoC is ultra dull, and doing it twice on one character (NM/HM) is enough to bore the hell out of the players. Then there's the problem of doing it with all characters that you want to get Zei Ri for, and let's face it: the whole questline is long, and you have to complete NM first.
This issue should be tackled. The short and easy way is to unlock Zei Ri for the whole account once he was obtained by any of your characters. Another easy and quite satisfying way is to unlock WoC HM for the whole account once any character beats it in NM. There are at least several other possibilities, but yeah, this is a problem, especially for completionists without a dedicated main character, who want to get everything they can for all of their ten PvE chars.

Talking about WoC HM's difficulty - i completed it with a primary Mesmer (before changes) and with a primary Paragon (after changes), with heroes only, without cons, save dp removals.
Yes, it required me to alter my usual builds and look for new solutions. Yes, i couldn't play the game as i used to, as i 'wanted'. Yes, i wiped quite a lot, especially with the Paragon (while imbagon is certainly helpful, she has only limited access to skills and her heroes are crappy, especially when compared to the main Mesmer). Yes, it took me some time.
So what?
Games are supposed to take time and pose challenges to overcome rather than facerolling in several minutes. GW originally was supposed to require frequent build changing in order to adapt to the mission/zone you're going into, as it's prime mechanic, the skillbar building, is based rather on Magic: the Gathering than other MMOs.

We could argue about the HM itself, or some of the game's mechanics, but given all the circumstances, the current situation is perfectly fine.
If you can't beat GoW on Titan, get better at it. If you can't beat WoC HM, get better at it. Sure, 'better' means 'learn the mechanics, know the system, and find out how to best exploit it', just as with any other game - play by its rules, but make them yours.

Wandering Hades · Feb 20, 2012, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Here, if they add Zei Ri to the nm reward for WoC, then i demand at the end of a nm FoW run that the eternal forgemaster gives us free obsidian armor. just saying.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Feb 20, 2012, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

For the same reason that NM got it. The general reason that content gives a reward at the end, in online games.

i wasnt asking why HM should have rewards
i asked why HM (which should be an extra to let people have their challenges) should also have a hero as reward, especially a better one than NM hero

Try it with heroes, I found it that easier sometimes because you can manage them all yourself, as in skill usage and position flagging. If you play with other players you need to make sure the teamplay is really good, because if two people do different things it can easily mean wiping.

like i never tried anything, i cant do much on my own at all, due to some handicaps which really get in my way, and i said this several times here

what i see here is: some can do it, so everyone can
too bad, but we're not the same, noone is
i have seen people who completed it on HM and still say: its way too hard for its own good
yet here people say: i can, so you can do it too

that kinda let people feel being bad at GW only cuz the challenges get harder and harder, and many people cant do it (like myself)
thx to that kinda community, i dont join GW2 (as i said before), as its only : you can do it if you want to

you cant let someone really use his legs if he doesnt have any (example)
not everyone can do everything others can, it just doesnt work that way, otherwise this world would have had too many "stronger" people

i've tried HM many many times, and i just cant get through much, still.....
i had millions (not litterally) of hero builds, and didnt work out at all
me using builds i cant use, means i fail from the start (which is why i got sick of the non-helping part of this community in GW)
"use this, use that" or "you can do it, just keep trying"
they have no idea who i am, and what i can do.... and what i cannot do, which is why i'm struggling to stay in GW

anyway, i'm not just talking about myself
as i said: challenges are fine, but shouldnt always get harder and harder, especially not like this

i also know failure is part of learning, even though it works the other way around in my case, but we should have fun
doing something as hard as WoC on HM, thats no fun for most, as i've seen (even to those who made it in 1 run)

GW is no longer for fun (community wise) its more about competing and get everything harder and harder

i dont think i can make myself clear enough here, so i keep it like this
i'll just have to find help for my other 2 chars somehow.... and people i know dont bother doing it again.... so gl to me

have fun in your hard mode game....

Lanier · Feb 20, 2012, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wandering Hades

Here, if they add Zei Ri to the nm reward for WoC, then i demand at the end of a nm FoW run that the eternal forgemaster gives us free obsidian armor. just saying.

Thats a rediculous comparison. Just saying.

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 20, 2012, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

what i see here is: some can do it, so everyone can
too bad, but we're not the same, noone is
i have seen people who completed it on HM and still say: its way too hard for its own good
yet here people say: i can, so you can do it too

that kinda let people feel being bad at GW only cuz the challenges get harder and harder, and many people cant do it (like myself)
thx to that kinda community, i dont join GW2 (as i said before), as its only : you can do it if you want to

you cant let someone really use his legs if he doesnt have any (example)
not everyone can do everything others can, it just doesnt work that way, otherwise this world would have had too many "stronger" people

i've tried HM many many times, and i just cant get through much, still.....
i had millions (not litterally) of hero builds, and didnt work out at all
me using builds i cant use, means i fail from the start (which is why i got sick of the non-helping part of this community in GW)
"use this, use that" or "you can do it, just keep trying"
they have no idea who i am, and what i can do.... and what i cannot do, which is why i'm struggling to stay in GW

anyway, i'm not just talking about myself
as i said: challenges are fine, but shouldnt always get harder and harder, especially not like this

i also know failure is part of learning, even though it works the other way around in my case, but we should have fun
doing something as hard as WoC on HM, thats no fun for most, as i've seen (even to those who made it in 1 run)

GW is no longer for fun (community wise) its more about competing and get everything harder and harder

i dont think i can make myself clear enough here, so i keep it like this
i'll just have to find help for my other 2 chars somehow.... and people i know dont bother doing it again.... so gl to me

have fun in your hard mode game....

Obviously you have no interest at all in grouping or getting better at all.
All you do is crying that its to hard for you, and that nobody will team up with you or help you, despite several people in this very thread including myself, have offered to provide builds,advice, and even willing to group up with the peoplewho struggle.
Yet you choose to just ignore that and keep on whining.
Yes I do not have a clue who you are, and frankly, I do not need to know either.
Because knowing you is not required for making you pass WoC.
You want fun, yet refuse to take on the challenge.
Learning is part of the process.
WoC does not need to feel like work.
If you would succeed in doing everything on the first attempt without any difficulties at all, where's the fun in that, whats the achievement?

AmoebaInfectionTechnique · Feb 20, 2012, 08:08 PM // 20:08

How about unlocking it using 15 gold coins or 80000 balthazar faction coz i don't like the idea of making myself do hm quests (idc really since a necro/rt is much better)?

Flameseeker · Feb 20, 2012, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

yet here people say: i can, so you can do it too

Never said with that meaning but if you bring it up.
Excluding rescue at cho and the angchu I did all the other with heroes all unruned, mostly with their starter weapons running a lot of different subpar builds (though for some quests i did have to take an ST rit hero). I just bothered to read the discussions pages of each quest (there are plenty of helpful tips) and after failing ponder what i did wrong and what i could improve.
Surprisingly sometimes the weirdest answer is the correct one. For example on finding jinnai most tips tells you to go to the graveyard while i found much easier to just be on top of the enemies spawn point near it, killing them as they spawn.

I'm not a god playing with heroes. I probably can't do DoA or UW in NM with them, much less HM, and after seeing the lvl 40 titans smashing my team I completely gave up.
Still i made WoC and with a bit of effort and half a brain people could at least get through it once.
Besides a Rit hero is a much better prize then any other HM reward so far and should keep he 1st time interesting.

Kunder · Feb 20, 2012, 11:29 PM // 23:29

The number of people unable to realize the difference between difficult content and grindy content is truly baffling. I suppose the old GW mantra of skill > time spent was actually DOA, it just took this long to for me to realize that.

Flameseeker · Feb 21, 2012, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The number of people unable to realize the difference between difficult content and grindy content is truly baffling. I suppose the old GW mantra of skill > time spent was actually DOA, it just took this long to for me to realize that.

If you took the time to read my previous posts you would know I don't support the idea of having to grind WoC in NM+HM with all chars to get the hero.
I just won't tolerate the laziness of not going for that once to unlock him and then get an easier (in the sense of taking less time not actual "brainless easy") for the remaining chars. That way it would be a challenge to unlock and not require any further grind whatsoever.

Kunder · Feb 21, 2012, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

If you took the time to read my previous posts you would know I don't support the idea of having to grind WoC in NM+HM with all chars to get the hero.
I just won't tolerate the laziness of not going for that once to unlock him and then get an easier (in the sense of taking less time not actual "brainless easy") for the remaining chars. That way it would be a challenge to unlock and not require any further grind whatsoever.

You act as if I had specifically quoted you and was replying to what you said. The statement was merely a reflection of the thread as a whole.