Curse

HigherMinion · Apr 30, 2012, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Shouldn't the incentive of playing together actually be..uh playing together itself? And, doesn't people pug unless they use cons and pve skills? If so it's realy sad...

In my books, there are about three incentives to play with a full team of humans:

1. No requirements with flagging/micro skill.
2. Access to pcons and more than three PvE skills.
3. Lulz.

1 and 3 can only go so far...

Bright Star Shine · May 01, 2012, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

In my books, there are about three incentives to play with a full team of humans:

1. No requirements with flagging/micro skill.
2. Access to pcons and more than three PvE skills.
3. Lulz.

1 and 3 can only go so far...

4. There are some things you just can't do with heroes?

Mainly speedclearing then. But yeh, besides that, you're pretty spot on. Besides speedclearing I have absolutely no incentive to play with other people outside of my friendslist/guild roster, by this I mean PUGing. There is nothing remotely fun or interesting about carrying a bunch of bad players through an area I don't even like. And anything outside of UW and DoA can be easily done with 7 heroes, usually even better with heroes than with players.

Daesu · May 01, 2012, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

In my books, there are about three incentives to play with a full team of humans:

1. No requirements with flagging/micro skill.
2. Access to pcons and more than three PvE skills.
3. Lulz.

1 and 3 can only go so far...

4. You can split your team.

5. You have more people to carry stuff (e.g. keg, or in Sunjiang District mission)

6. Heroes also don't get out of AoE attacks well which is why the need for flagging comes in the first place.

There are many missions that would be a lot easier with humans than with heroes because heroes need to be micro-ed in many of these cases.

For example, Eternal Grove would require you to run back and forth on both sides without humans, Divinity Coast would require you to prioritize healing on the villagers or fail the bonus, Jennur's Horde would require you to keep a lookout for spawned Margonite groups while killing the harbingers, prioritize killing the crystal carrier in Aurora Glades, etc. Heroes also can't have celestial skills. Heroes would kill the Sunspear ghosts in Jokanur Diggings mission, destroying your bonus, if they have the chance. In Moddok Crevice where you need to cripple the 2 runners, it is tricky to do it with heroes especially in HM.

HigherMinion · May 01, 2012, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

4. You can split your team.

5. You have more people to carry stuff (e.g. keg, or in Sunjiang District mission)

6. Heroes also don't get out of AoE attacks well which is why the need for flagging comes in the first place.

There are many missions that would be a lot easier with humans than with heroes because heroes need to be micro-ed in many of these cases.

For example, Eternal Grove would require you to run back and forth on both sides without humans, Divinity Coast would require you to prioritize healing on the villagers or fail the bonus, Jennur's Horde would require you to keep a lookout for spawned Margonite groups while killing the harbingers, prioritize killing the crystal carrier in Aurora Glades, etc. Heroes also can't have celestial skills. Heroes would kill the Sunspear ghosts in Jokanur Diggings mission, destroying your bonus, if they have the chance. In Moddok Crevice where you need to cripple the 2 runners, it is tricky to do it with heroes especially in HM.

Points 4, 6 and the WoT after that is all summarised in my first point.

Daesu · May 01, 2012, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Points 4, 6 and the WoT after that is all summarised in my first point.

I'll give you point 6, but for point 4, flagging alone is not going to help much in Eternal Grove since enemies can also come from north or south. You also need to prioritise killing turtles if you want bonus. You also need to watch out for luxons sneaking past you. So spliting the team is much more than just flagging.

In other words, it is hard to do this alone with just heroes in HM Eternal Grove with bonus.

HigherMinion · May 01, 2012, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I'll give you point 6, but for point 4, flagging alone is not going to help much in Eternal Grove since enemies can also come from north or south. You also need to prioritise killing turtles if you want bonus. You also need to watch out for luxons sneaking past you. So spliting the team is much more than just flagging.

In other words, it is hard to do this alone with just heroes in HM Eternal Grove with bonus.

Are you telling me you can't 7H Eternal Grove?

Daesu · May 01, 2012, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Are you telling me you can't 7H Eternal Grove?

I didn't say it is impossible, I said it is harder than doing it with a PUG. Since I have done it myself it is certainly possible.

The problem with this forum is whenever someone says something is "harder", people always imply the word to mean "impossible".

HigherMinion · May 02, 2012, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I didn't say it is impossible, I said it is harder than doing it with a PUG. Since I have done it myself it is certainly possible.

The problem with this forum is whenever someone says something is "harder", people always imply the word to mean "impossible".

So, better hero micro skill is called for, which isn't required in a pug. I was just proving my point.

Daesu · May 02, 2012, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So, better hero micro skill is called for, which isn't required in a pug. I was just proving my point.

If that was what you meant, then your point 1 should be 2 seperate points because flagging heroes to minimize aoe damage and splitting the team to accomplish mission goals are entirely different issues.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · May 02, 2012, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Why exactly do some people have it in their head that there should be any incentive for group play other than the fact that you get to play with friends/other people? Such an idea is completely moronic.

Still, OP sucks and his idea is a failure because his posts are completely unreadable. lrn2english plzkthx.

thx for saying i suck
and you're prolly the only one not understanding me

how can you see my idea is a failure? you said you cant read it

english isnt my native language, yet nearly all people i met on forums and in games understand me well, maybe cuz they think about what i could mean

this topic has changed into "with heroes is harder than with other "good" players" while making cons. party-wide cant harm the game... or whats left of it, especially after GW2 release (not beta, i mean the whole game being released official)

and people who stay in GW wont care much about balances, as most teamplay is gone anyway, unless you're lucky to find a nice guild+allies

making these cons. party-wide isnt to make GW easier, but its to make the cons. themselves more useful, as i find them kinda useless if playing with others who dont use em, and when heroes cant get the buffs on them

i guess i gotta repeat it, before the topic goes all offtopic

i also said something along the lines that my reason is not to make GW easier, but to give my whole team a nice buff (which make some parts going a lil faster) and getting my sweet tooth title going up at the same time

tbh, i'm not into spamming titles to the max (although honeycombs and rainbow candy canes sometimes do that when doing the not-so-easy stuff)

and of course newbies who get GW, also will see that GW2 is much bigger and more advanced, and so once they at least get HoM at 30/50, they mostly leave

PS. i never said that everyone one day will leave, but there wont be that many people staying in GW, as they either go to GW2, or play other games
meaning that GW will get emptier with time, and so the non-balanced stuff will hurt nearly noone anymore (which it already doesnt if talking about pve (which is the only option allowing cons. buffs anyway)

MithranArkanere · May 02, 2012, 03:54 PM // 15:54

The only ones I would do account-wide are the DP-removal ones.
But make them be less effective for allies.
For example, if a DP-removal item would remove 15% from you, they'll remove 5% from party members, if all DP from you, only 15% from party members.

Mintha Syl · May 02, 2012, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

and people who stay in GW wont care much about balances

Quote:

and so the non-balanced stuff will hurt nearly noone anymore (which it already doesnt if talking about pve (which is the only option allowing cons. buffs anyway)

despite having partially agreed with your suggestion, I believe you are totally wrong here. Unbalance always does harm. Not just in competitive format but also in pve, not only when the population is big but also when there''ll be the few of us left. If powercreep gets too much out of control the game collapses on itself.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · May 02, 2012, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

despite having partially agreed with your suggestion, I believe you are totally wrong here. Unbalance always does harm. Not just in competitive format but also in pve, not only when the population is big but also when there''ll be the few of us left. If powercreep gets too much out of control the game collapses on itself.

this small suggestion wont do any harm to the game... or whats left of it
besides, most unbalanced stuff in pve made lots of people happier for some years now

remember when they buffed the pve-only skills? those skills did more to GW that others, especially more than what cons. did

and i repeated my reason of making all cons. party-wide, was NOT to make the game easier, which i doubt will happen as much so that GW gets too easy, as most people found builds which already do that, making the game much easier

and even if GW would become a lil easier thx to this, there wont be any troubles, as the game wont ever get enough members who destroy any kind of fun to others, cuz of imbalanced stuff for example

GW will be for lore and fun it has with certain content (not just WiK and WoC, but anything), and imbalances dont harm because GW isnt as.... "serious" as back then anymore

but as i said: this game wont become bad/overpowered/imbalanced more with this suggestion
as i said (i repeat it just once more, after that you just gotta scroll up yourself) , this idea is to make cons. useful for at least your heroes, and maybe for playerteams, and giving you sweet tooth at the same time

note: PLZ read that last part very carefully, and dont ignore that most important part just to nitpick on other parts, as doing so wont make any good points, because.... *i gave the reasons before*

no repeats anymore, plz read the bolded part carefully before criticising half posts

man, cant anyone explain it a lil better, what i mean, so that my not-so-good english wont give the wrong ideas?

Mintha Syl · May 02, 2012, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I had already given my opinion on the rest, no need to repeat it, that's why focusing only on part of what you said.

Wielder Of Magic · May 03, 2012, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

thx for saying i suck
and you're prolly the only one not understanding me

how can you see my idea is a failure? you said you cant read it

english isnt my native language, yet nearly all people i met on forums and in games understand me well, maybe cuz they think about what i could mean

this topic has changed into "with heroes is harder than with other "good" players" while making cons. party-wide cant harm the game... or whats left of it, especially after GW2 release (not beta, i mean the whole game being released official)

and people who stay in GW wont care much about balances, as most teamplay is gone anyway, unless you're lucky to find a nice guild+allies

making these cons. party-wide isnt to make GW easier, but its to make the cons. themselves more useful, as i find them kinda useless if playing with others who dont use em, and when heroes cant get the buffs on them

i guess i gotta repeat it, before the topic goes all offtopic

i also said something along the lines that my reason is not to make GW easier, but to give my whole team a nice buff (which make some parts going a lil faster) and getting my sweet tooth title going up at the same time

tbh, i'm not into spamming titles to the max (although honeycombs and rainbow candy canes sometimes do that when doing the not-so-easy stuff)

and of course newbies who get GW, also will see that GW2 is much bigger and more advanced, and so once they at least get HoM at 30/50, they mostly leave

PS. i never said that everyone one day will leave, but there wont be that many people staying in GW, as they either go to GW2, or play other games
meaning that GW will get emptier with time, and so the non-balanced stuff will hurt nearly noone anymore (which it already doesnt if talking about pve (which is the only option allowing cons. buffs anyway)

First of all, despite your english not being perfect, I am able to understand what you are trying to say quite well.

Now, about the ideas you mention in the quoted post:

People who play a game will always care about balance.
In order for a game to be fun, there should be some form of difficulty and a learning curve.
If this difficulty or curve is taken away, there is no real point in playing anymore ( example of this is the prince of persia game by ubisoft back in 2008 I believe, in which they made it impossible for you to die, meaning it did not mean shit what you did, as long as you bashed any button you would eventually win).

The current partywide effects are in my opinion powerful enough as it is,
There is a reason that a lot of players consider a conset cheating already because of its powerful effects that can turn a real challenge into a walk in the park.
I already feel like Guild Wars has no challenging content anymore outside of things like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld on Hard Mode.
If all cons would be partywide you would simply farm some money, buy all cons, and kittenstomp everyone and everything with heroes having 2k health, 500 energy, 100+ armor, and 20 in all attributes.

So it actually would make Guild Wars easier by a horrifying degree, and I cannot understand why you claim that it wouldn't since it is so obvious with all the bonuses consumables give you.

Even PvE needs some form of balance.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · May 03, 2012, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

First of all, despite your english not being perfect, I am able to understand what you are trying to say quite well.

Now, about the ideas you mention in the quoted post:

People who play a game will always care about balance.
In order for a game to be fun, there should be some form of difficulty and a learning curve.
If this difficulty or curve is taken away, there is no real point in playing anymore ( example of this is the prince of persia game by ubisoft back in 2008 I believe, in which they made it impossible for you to die, meaning it did not mean shit what you did, as long as you bashed any button you would eventually win).

The current partywide effects are in my opinion powerful enough as it is,
There is a reason that a lot of players consider a conset cheating already because of its powerful effects that can turn a real challenge into a walk in the park.
I already feel like Guild Wars has no challenging content anymore outside of things like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld on Hard Mode.
If all cons would be partywide you would simply farm some money, buy all cons, and kittenstomp everyone and everything with heroes having 2k health, 500 energy, 100+ armor, and 20 in all attributes.

So it actually would make Guild Wars easier by a horrifying degree, and I cannot understand why you claim that it wouldn't since it is so obvious with all the bonuses consumables give you.

Even PvE needs some form of balance.

well, as far as i see, the "challenge" you mean is not for that many people, as if it were, 7 hero would NEVER been done in the first place

and if GW already is imbalanced and too easy to certain people (not to everyone, in which i dont even count myself)
and balance VS having with with the game itself and its items.... which do you think will win, after seeing what they done to make the game more accessible? (example again: 7 hero)

a game doesnt need to be only challenging, it also should be fun to play through without thinkiing about challeneges all the time, or else its just an "elitism" game (maybe you can find a better word for a game in which people only want it to become harder and having to become much better every once in a while), which forces players to be better than they already are, while having fun in different ways can and will have a better outcome

besides, since there's not much chance you can get a whole team of players anymore (who can all use all of the cons. on themselves) we'd be needing heroes in most cases, who suck at AI as they cannot think, they just react (interrupters interrupt a stupid skill, healers heal minions etc.) the way they are programmed, and they cannot uise any kind of cons.

also, i also said "nerf if needed" but could also say "dont let similar cons. stack" , like +1 attribute items cannot stack, so that it becomes more than +1

what fun will GW have in the future, when most people who know the game now, are gone, and newer people get sick of not able to get help and have to look at pvx to get through certain areas, while they get bored by doing so?

i'm not looking at GW from now, but at GW in the future (which may be nearer than we think it'd be)

people get bored and will play GW2 or other games, then the few people left in GW, which can be a decent amount, but far from enough to teamup (with people who are like "no thx, i've done that already, dont wanna" or "i'm a solo-er")
i already barely see experienced people wanting to teamup for fun or help, guess what we'll see soon (GW2, yea)

then there's timezones (i get help from 1, who lives far away, and barely can see him on, as he's busy in rl, and i'm gone once he's free) and people who want to speed though their HoM, then go to GW2, and last be not least (depends on how you see it) the ones who play through games for 100%, and then try out other games to play through for 100%

anyway, about the suggestion and its changes in ideas of how to use em (non-stacking and each use for each hero)
this cant ever break the game, even if its stackable and 1 use = whole team, as people dont NEED to use em

if people want the game to be harder, they go HM (which is optional) and wont use any kinds of cons. (also optional)
but i've seen so many who think GW is way too easy, still using those 3 (or was it 4?) cons. as set (which are party-wide)

you see, complaining about GW being too easy, yet trying to make it even easier (to them), is asking for more challenges, while they take away their own challenges

and people who dont wanna do it without cons. or dont wanna do it the hard way, will most likely ask for runs, and those are easy to find on forums and ingame

with this suggestion, people still can play their own ways, it just gives them more options to use

the party-wide style wont give runners (solo ones) any benefits, as they already use em on themselves, and go solo (so the effects on the others, are for nothing)

so last addition to this suggestion = "make them non-stackable with same kinds of cons. example: candy corn + golden egg = + 1 in all attributes, and same with candy apple + birthday cupcake = +100 max. HP, 10 max. energy and +25% movement speed

so all effects can be used once, and wasting same types of cons. would either be impossible, or just to get sweet points (in other words, the same effects would be ignored)

would it make the game easier? a little, but still balanced enough to have fun
and those who dont want this, can ignore em, or use them for sweet tooth title, and go back into an outpost/town to avoid the "easier gameplay"

also another addition in case: make the leader only being able to use it party-wide, so that the non-leading ones only use it on themselves (and maybe only own heroes)

see? we can get far with this suggestion, as long as people make their own challenges, and dont say NO to anything others will be happy about

example i used was 7 hero, but eotn only allowed lvl 20's before, and anet thought: people getting sick of training to max lvl before they can enter eotn, lets change... and buff them

note: non-stacking also means with items + god's favor buffs

this makes it easier to balance.... but takes more time, so we'll have to see what Anet's live team thinks about it (if they ever do it in the future... still busy with GW2 atm)

Grover · May 06, 2012, 05:52 PM // 17:52

So if i was using heroes and didnt want to waste cons on them because i am the only one needing them, i would be screwed cause i just wasted 7 more instead of the just the ONE i wanted. Unless they wanna add a year long consumables crafter and completely remove special event drops then it would seem fine. What you are also implying with this is that they add a completely new range of pcons for user only.

^ There that better i removed 7 words. now its nothing to do about being easy. /facepalm

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · May 06, 2012, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grover

So if i was using heroes and didnt want to waste cons on them because i am the only one needing them, i would be screwed cause i just wasted 7 more instead of the just the ONE i wanted. Unless they wanna add a year long consumables crafter and completely remove special event drops then it would seem fine. What you are also implying with this is that they add a completely new range of pcons for user only. As if the game isnt easy enough.

reread my posts "its NOT about makiing the gamje easier, but about making the singletarget cons. more useful for at least your own heroes"

please first read all points before replying without reading what i was going to myself
sure, some people who still would play GW would use it to make stuff easier, but they seem to do fine with the cons.sets right now, so adding these wouldnt hurt much

so even if it was to make GW easier (which its not for me), it'd be no problem

people either use "blindly pvx" or "party-wide cons." then

oh wait, the word people use about pvx is steamroll, isnt it?

anyway, i just like to see better use in those singletarget cons. whether its each use = 1 more hero having it, or 1 click = all your heroes or whole party

i just like to spend my time more useful with getting sweet tooth title and do some HM stuff at the same time (not that i do much hard stuff by myself, so its not the first priority)

i also said that it feels kinda empty to me, having cons. which only buffs yourself, and not the heroes

note: i dont use pvx or cons. (except for honeycombs and rainbow candy canes at some places) to get far in the game (or as far as i could go now, with so much done)

hope i made it a bit more clear now...

prism2525 · May 09, 2012, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I'll give you point 6, but for point 4, flagging alone is not going to help much in Eternal Grove since enemies can also come from north or south. You also need to prioritise killing turtles if you want bonus. You also need to watch out for luxons sneaking past you. So spliting the team is much more than just flagging.

In other words, it is hard to do this alone with just heroes in HM Eternal Grove with bonus.

I, an ele can play SoS on one gate with 3 heroes and have the other 4 flagged at the other gate and still manage master's in HM, so I fail to see how it's hard.