Curse

Spooky · Feb 07, 2005, 05:46 AM // 05:46

To try and get things moving with the forum, allow me to toss out the following question:

It is often counted as a bone of contention among the crowd that favors PvP (of which I do not count myself in the ranks, though I am sympathetic to their plight) that there are not enough / not enough diverse maps to use.
If one considers a game like StarCraft - it continues strong to this day due to the diverse methods there are of playing it (fueled largely by player mods) and while player modding isn't applicable to Guild Wars, ideas for competitive maps are. So what kind of map / challenges would you like to see?

Speaking for myself personally, i'd like to see an Offense / Defense map, as I think it could easily be tailored to 'fit' with Guild Wars. Imagine if you would, having one team that spawns as the "Defense", bunkered down in their fort, with several methods of warding off attacks available to them - such as the catapults that were seen in the last BWE. The point of "Defense" is to defeat all oncoming attackers, and could either be set up as a 1 v 1 match basis, or perhaps more interestingly - similar to holding HoH in Tombs. One team holds the fort and continues to defend, until an "Offense" team finally overtakes them.
And while it might sound somewhat similar to the way HoH is now, the focus is more on using the enviroment as a tactical advantage, and outmaneuvering your foe - as opposed to everyone meeting in the middle and beating each other senseless.
I'm sure you can think of just as many interesting ways for a team to try and sneak in / take over, as you can to defend it.

That's my suggestion - so how about everyone else?

Sesshomaru · Feb 07, 2005, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Not so much a suggestion for a new game type, per se, but I have an idea for a setting for a map. It could work either for GvG or random teaming and all, any game mode will do.

I for one am tired of fighting in the sand... It gets in between my toes and hurts the feet a lot. We have all seen the floating castles, right? I think a multi-tired floating castle level would be awesome. Think the cradle from Goldeneye, only with chain-bridges and floating battlements. If there were high and low paths, which would be very narrow, choke points and defense would have to be much better thought out.

Ill work on a sketchy rendering of it in photoshop.

Here you go...

Like that, haha.

Pharalon · Feb 07, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I love assault type maps, so an offensive/defensive setting would be an excellent option to have available.

One thing I've noticed about organised PvP in GW, is that it tends to boil down to moving as a single group and focus-firing a called target to death. Just for some flavour, it'd be nice to have a gametype that forces teams to split up and control multiple map points at once. Perhaps something along the lines of an 8v8v8v8v8, with obelisks scattered around the map, where every 5 minutes, the team that controls the least obelisks is eliminated. You can still move as a team of 8 and domiante any one point on the map, but at the cost of having your oppents run riot everywhere else. That'll force combat to be more distributed, and will reward those teams that can coordinate the movement of several small squads at once, pick their skirmishes wisely, and know how to control key points on the map. It may not work out, but as Spooky said, just something different to 16-24 players all smashing into each other in the centre of the map

Ensign · Feb 07, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Saying that there are not enough PvP maps is quite the understatement. If you want to meet up with some friends and PvP, you can go and play Tombs, or you can go and play Tombs. Your options are to play Dust, or to play Dust - sure, it's a good map and all, but shouldn't there be a bit more?

The game doesn't need more game *types*, as much as it just needs more flavors of the same games. Adjusting the size of a map changes how fast or slow it plays - differing terrain features change how offensive or defensive you want to be on a given map, and how you evaluate different professions and skills. You just need some variety - it isn't like most PvE maps are all that different, they're just different enough to make things interesting. PvP needs the same thing.

If they want to get creative, though, make more asymmetric maps. Assault style, attack / defense is the most straightforward and has a lot of possibility - basically you just set them up like PvE maps with similar style goals, but with players on both sides.

Or you can just put in simple, quick PvP games that are great for more casual players. Something like the shrine attunement section of Aurora Glade - put two teams in there, first one to attune all three portals wins. It's easy, the games are fast, and you have a new competitive map.

Peace,
-CxE

Spooky · Feb 07, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

An 'attunement' type map would actually be really interesting, just based on the number of possible directions a match could go, beyond a battle royale. One team might try and focus the other, only to find someone on the opposing side speed buffed themselves and slipped away, stealing the match. In the end, I think you'd see a considerable focus on snares, traps, and condition removal .. which is different enough in and of itself from most types of encounters to make this a suggestion worth passing along.

Siran Dunmorgan · Feb 07, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Personally, I'd like to see more of the PvE maps adapted to PvP. Even more maps could be adapted to PvP if they used something like the "Siege" game type from Tribes 2, where one side attacks, the other side defends, and then the teams switch sides, trying to beat the other team's time to succeed in the attack.

Slipping the occasional monster into PvP would also lend some spice to the affair. This can range from simply having the occasional rampaging Rift Warden invade the map, through to being able to actually hire—for example—Maguuma mercenaries during the battle:

Imagine for a moment that Ettin's Back is a PvP map: simple objective: get your whole team across the map as quickly as possible. The other team is trying to stop you. Whichever team is controlling the Maguuma Totem[2] is the team the Maguuma don't attack.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] I think it's Ettin's Back that has the Maguuma village in it; I don't recall at the moment.

[2] Ideally, this is purchased from a Maguuma shaman for, say, 100 gold; obviously, this will open up accusations of "unfairness", but I'd say that it's better for the game as a whole to have opportunities to spend gold to enhance—not guarantee, but enhance—one's chances of success during PvP.

Dajii · Feb 07, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I made a post about that not so long ago over TGH, here is the transcript:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrivener

(Edit: talking about Gaile)She always plays, but I think everyone focusses her before the monks, just because she is famous and we love her! Her guild should make sure she always has Unyielding Aura and Death Nova on her.

We try to keep everyone alive, periode.

Since a few week, she seems to be the last one standing... she is like the cherry on the sunday for the oposite teams.

Anyways, back on topic:

~Since some are PvErs, like me, and like alot others. I would like to see some objectives in PvP, not only pure mindless bashing. The Caravan idea that has already been suggested here (and by a Dev) is a nice idea, like a mission in Ages of Mythology.

~I would also like some sort of... Natural Hazard. Something like a battle taking place beside an Exploding Volcano (arena surounded by lava) and each 30 seconds or so (with an easy to see countdown!!!), Fire Storm would be casted on each players (freind and foe) for 3-5 seconds. That would be awesome.

~Maybe some sort of Super Obelisk to. Like the HoH's Dyas. The one controling it would activate some sort of magical orb that would damage all ennemies for ~30-40 damage each 30 sec/1 minute and if the other team has his Ghostly hero still alive, the damage would drop to 20-30.

~I would also like some sort of PvE competition. Each team has some sort of area map containing alot of rooms. In each rooms, their would be a diffrent kind of boss with minions (make them tough, and random, like in normal PvE), killing those would open the door to the next room... and so on. The first team that arrives at the Center (like a 8vs8vs8vs8 PvE, each starting on a diffrent side) wins. Or even, they would get some sort of bonus:
- Firsts: +25 Moral Boost, +20 armor vs Physical/Spells
- Seconds: +20 Moral Boost, +15 armor vs Physical/Spells
- Third: +15 Moral Boost, +10 armor vs Physical/Spells
- Fourth: +10 Moral Boost, +10 armor vs Physical/Spells
I know the maximum is +15% Moral Boost, they are higher, just incase (and probably) that someone died in the Boss Runs
To take out the long waiting this could bring, when the first team reaches the center, a 30 sec countdown appears, if a team dosen't make it to the center in those 30sec, they are eliminated. For the ones that still are staying up: PvP!
Farming warning: These bosses will *not* drop anything, like the Tombs with the Wardens.

The type of map I'd like to see the most would be that Fire arena with Fire Storm! But, that flying castles map sure looks yummy! Place a Guild Lord in each of them with henchmans!

Edit: there was an attack/deffend map over E3, it was the map with the Lord Darus, it might still be there somewhere!

cpukilla · Feb 08, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

How about increased environmental hazards on maps? Could have areas that increase the potency of melee, arrows, or elemental attacks scattered around the map just to spice things up. Theme maps where a random nature ritual is always in play could be interesting. Maybe completing a difficult objective would change it to a different random ritual.

Aladdar · Feb 08, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

I think an assasin map would be fun. One team has to escort an NPC from one are of the map to the next while the other team tries to take him out.

[color=red]Edited to add : [/color]

However the biggest thing I want to see is more choices. I like the arenas, but let me choose my party or have it random if need be.

Let me choose if it's 2v2, 4v4, 6v6, or 8v8

Let me challenge other teams if I want.

Basically just add tons more options to increase the fun.

Kui · Feb 08, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Agreed on the 2v2 & 4v4. Would make for some more interesting dynamics and party balancing.

I'd be curious to see a real-death variant of PvP. You drop, you're out - No res.

~Kui

felix · Feb 09, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I was thinking of a attack/defend map throughout a castle. Itd be built like a maze, where "traps" would be randomly set at the beginning of the match. The traps would consist of Ranger traps that would hinder your party if you take a wrong path, making you weaker for when you meet up with the defenders. While your party takes damage and worries about what lurks around the next corner, the 'defenders' have a map of the place in the lower left corner, allowing them to know where all the traps are set, but not where the attackers are. Its more of a hide and seek type map that I thought would be enjoyable.

Weezer_Blue · Feb 09, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

The Ascalon Arena is great. I mean - it's sort of the newb/ tutorial arena. It doesn't need to be filled with different maps and play styles and all that stuff that would just confuse new people.

The Gladiator Arena on the other hand is seriously lacking. It's a 4v4 arena with a worse layout that the Ascalon Arena, no extra maps, the same objective, and the same number of teams! What's the fun in that!? First of all. Make this Arena an 8v8. It's time to graduate once you reach Lions Arch and get hauled off to your first 8v8 (well... you've probably GvGed but.. er... shudup). You could also make it a random chance between 8v8 and 4v4v4v4 or even 8v8v8v8. Obviously, you need more maps. I say do these randomly and you'd say "why would I want it randomly?!" Well. Because not everyone wants to play on certain maps, but there are still a few. If it were not random, then think of how hard it would be to randomly find people that wanted to go to your favorite map if you favorite map wasn't popular! These could be maps that focus on special tactics. There could be one that is aimed towards the ranged groups and those that are aimed towards the melee groups and so on. And it would all be fair because your group is still completely random. I liked that idea above with the floating castles, but rather than multi-tiered, it would be cool if there were just four castles with a middle rock and a bunch of paths leading between (if you've ever played Age of Empires 2, think "Soldier Store".)

A quick solution to ease the monotony of the maps is obviously to give us a map designer and let us make our own maps. There are problems with this with the security of the game (as stated in the last "Photics" issue), and the major problem that I forsee, is a ton of crappy maps. If you've ever played any RTS you know that a map designer is fun. It makes *really* cool maps but what else does it do? It makes like 500000000 crappy or cheaty maps. You know if this was release there would be people going "hmm... lets make one where team A automatically wins every time no matter how sucky they are!" and there would be others that just sucked without evil intentions of the creator.
The only cool thing I can think of is every month, let us submit 1 map design and mail it like we did with the Emblems. The 10 winning map designs are implimented into Guild Wars. However, this can become time consuming for the A.Net staff (or the half working with us rather than the next expansion), and I'm sure they could be doing cooler things -- like making their own maps that would slaughter ours.

Game mods have also been a problem. The more game modes, the better. Currently there are... er... 4? Capture the Relic (a not-so-good version of CTF), King of the Hill (not sure if this is in but i heard about it from E3 or something like that), Siege (also E3... I think), and Genocide (my complicated name for "Kill the Guild Leader" in GvG) Here are my game-mode suggestions:

Genocide: Current GvG

Massive Genocide: 16v16 form of GvG

Extermination: 8v8 - kill everyone on other team to win (and priest) all PvP

Massive Extermination: 16v16 - kill everyone on other team to win (+ priest) all PvP

King of the Hill: 8v8 First to get to the Hill takes control of it. After that, whoever has more people within the Hill at the current time takes control of it. Whoever holds the hill for ___ minutes wins the match. GvG/ Tombs

Capture the Flag: 8v8. Run to the enemy base and capture their ___. (prefurably a FLAG). Bring it back to your base to score. Both teams have Flags. Can score when your flag is missing. Picking up your flag returns it. Lasts for ___ time. Kills do not count as a point - only captures.

Deathmatch: 8v8. Kill the enemy team for points! Each kill = one point. When whole team is dead, you get 16 points. Most points after __ wins.

Deathmatch Type 2: Kill the enemies. Each enemy has __ lives. They cannot be resurected after __ deaths. Last team standing wins.

Siege: 8v8/16v16. This goes in rounds. One team defends for ___ minutes while the other attacks. Break through the defending team's barriers and plant your flag at their highest tier to score a point and end the round. Defending team wins when time runs out. Then teams switch roles. Siege equipment is both inside and outside base for defence of base and the demolishing of the base.

Chaos: 4v4v4v4v4v4v4v4v4. Nine teams of 4 face off on a huge battlefield. Teams are resurected every __ minutes and the last team standing wins. If the priest dies, (heavily guarded by NPCs), then it takes you __ times as long to resurect.

Scrimage: #<8 vs #<8 + #<8(spectators) of the same guild fight inside and around the Guild Hall. This is for testing purposes and just a friendly slaughtering of your Guildies. Spectators are allowed inside the battle and are transparent to the fighters (as not to confuse them). There are no restrictions on teams except that they must be less than or equal to 8. In other words you could do an 8v1 with 8 spectators if you wanted just for laughs.

There should also be mini-games to play in the Guild Hall while waiting for a fight or for your members to show up. This should be an afterthought of all those map types though. (but it would be cool to play a short game of chess or monopoly ("short game of what?!") before the match)

Keramon · Feb 09, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Assualt Maps are great ... pick any map from UT with objectives ... fun stuff. Maybe the beaches of normandy might be a little harsh on the death penalty ... but hey ... too much fun.

But I would like to see a large outside area probably equivilent in size or a little smaller to the mission maps. Simply add various spawn points for around 4-8 teams ... when everyone on a team dies ... another team spawns at one of the vacant spawn points. This would be constant multi-team PVP. Certainly a different concept from what is available today. And something to satisfy those eager for larger scale PVP.

Elithor · Feb 09, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I'd have to say an Offense/Defense Capture the Flag map. But the fun part would be around 10 underground tunnels which all lead to the area where the defensive team's flag is. That could involve much strategy. One rule would be that the defensive team can't camp by their flag base. Just imagine your the defensive team fighting 7 guys trying to get through the tunnel all the way to the left, not noticing that little red dot in the right tunnel on the mini-map which just captured your flag and is proceeding back to their base. That would suck, wouldn't it?

Sleeky101 · Feb 09, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Just for some flavour, it'd be nice to have a gametype that forces teams to split up and control multiple map points at once.

I think a double domination, a la UT2004, type of gameplay would work nicely. The object would be to control two points for x amount of time to win. But, if you currently hold both, the other team can take one to reset your win timer. A map with 2 obelisks on the side and a moral stand in the middle could get interesting and would definitely force you to decide when to split.

Dannzzigg · Feb 09, 2005, 10:58 PM // 22:58

The big thing that I want to see is some variety in the GvG maps. There doesn't have to be diffeent game types, but that would be great, too. I just want to get into some good GvG battles in a different area.

Simply adding variety to the terrain would be a bonus. How about having a ridge for the rangers to bombard their opponents from, one that perhaps would become hotly contested ground? Or inaccesible areas that force teams to go in a certain direction, allowing ambushes to be set. Or poisoned swamps that might be a shortcut to an objective, but you'll have to decide if the poisoning is worth it?

There are so many things they could do simply by changing the physical layout of the map, without even adding any other features or objectives, that would greatly spice up GvG.

And I'm not even going to mention the possibility of weather effects, nightime battles, volcanic eruptions... Oh wait, I just did mention them. Oh well.

Ensign · Feb 09, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

More than anything, games with objectives that need to be reached simultaneously, thus neccessitating splitting up your team, should be added. Everything in game right now has your entire team sticking together outside of a few choice situations (Warriors running off to ninja a priest, going back for a flag, someone grabbing the gate lever on that CTR map), so forcing people to make decisions about how to break up their squad would be a radical, and welcome, change of pace.

Peace,
-CxE

Weezer_Blue · Feb 10, 2005, 12:26 AM // 00:26

haha... i love the whole ninja priest thing. it's great. we just watched red and blue teams fight it out on a hill for like 20 minutes, and then someone said "wait... aren't their priests wide open?" and we had to sneak stealthily by and kill them. it was great