Curse

Weezer_Blue · Feb 26, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Wow. Thank you very very much for your input on my build. I'll be sure to try out all the suggested ones at the end.

I got the complete original build and it was pretty good. Barrage was a lot more useful for PvE than it was for PvP... But... well... this weekend seemed to be a lot more PvE for me (went through all the EAs past LA). It worked nicely in the Tombs - especially when there were several tanks focusing on the same Monk or something like that which can get extremely annoying because then your team has to go from damage output to protecting themselves. It wasn't as warrior-centric as I thought it would be because it ended up being pretty widely used on anything I could shoot at and distracting shot is my choice over concussion any day because it can shut up a flare-spamming elementalist for 20 seconds while you go kill something else.

Terphin · Feb 26, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

5% DP isn't much at all, you will get that back very quickly in a PvP match. Plus keeping in mind that you are a ranger you don't position yourself in the front line ready to be charged by warriors. So there is no big initial threat to you.

The other advantage is that Favourable Winds is that it lasts quite a bit longer. However anture rituals affect everyone in the specific game which is a greater drawback for me than DP, because it gives other rangers the same boost. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

jaynan · Feb 26, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Great read guys! I've only been playing the last 2 BWEs and have been a bit of a 'lost soul' (or is that 'newbie'

) when it comes to how to get the most out of a character. the next events will certainly be better PVP for me than it has been so far.

i know you're going to be spammed with requests for a review, so how about working with a mes/nec or a nec/mes? i can't decide which flavor i like better!

cheers!

-Jerry

"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard,
sleep hard, grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em!" -Webb Wilder

Dovi the Monk · Feb 26, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

im not a huge fan of primary rangers, but that was still a good read.

i dont like rituals cause they effect eveyone on the field though, i think read the wind would be much better, although if barrage is just going to get rid of it, u could always tradeone of those skills in for another. i mean or just use them at differnt times, on another note i relaly liked hunters shot with my warrior/ranger. when i had to go ranger i would bring power shot and hunters shot. both boosted damage and when the enemy is moving bleeding is pretty nice. i prob with a high expertise/marks ranger went super into damage adding marks skills, although guys since were no longer to keen on air u could go warrior for tactics, u could then bring healing signet(incase u need some health) and then frenzy to make your arrows go faster instead of read the wind, and like u said u dont get attacked much so i htink u could use frenzy and get away with it. that may work then u could use barrage and frenzy together.

Ensign · Feb 26, 2005, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Saus - the recycle times are high enough when you have Tiger's Fury running that you'll need a 3rd attack skill. Without it you can go Barrage/Dual/Barrage/Debilitating, but with it Dual and Debilitating won't recycle within 3 bow shots so you work in Hunter's. Hunter's is the best choice of what's left over because it's cheap, it does nearly as much damage as a Power Shot, and it will get you some incidental bleeding sometimes. It's due for a nerf to 10 energy, but until they do that might as well abuse it.

Beastmastery you pump to 3 so that you can get to 4 with a minor rune, since that's the 7 second breakpoint on Tiger's Fury. Now that Expertise affects stances that skill is absurd - 4 energy for a 33% increase in attack speed, with no real drawback? Gimme. You lose, what, 2 points on a Conjure from doing this? Oh no.

Also, the real combo here that you didn't talk about is Zealous Bow + Barrage. +1 energy per hit when you're attacking up to 5 targets with a 2 energy skill = energy regen. Barrage isn't just a damage machine, it's your energy engine too.

Definitely use Conjure Frost to fight against Silk, as that's unconditionally the best Monk armor now. I'd rather have the bonus when shooting at Monks than on the occasions when I hit someone with Hydromancer armor.

Hunter's isn't +energy anymore, it's just +vs. Piercing. I'd go with that on chest/legs and Druids on hands/feet. Hunter's is clearly the best because you're already set against elemental damage, going overkill against a particular elemental type isn't nearly as valuable as shoring up a weakness. Rangers are popular, so it's a no-brainer.

Basically your core is Barrage, Dual, Debilitating, Hunter's, Tiger's Fury, Conjure. Supplement it with a couple more skills of your choice (I prefer Distracting Shot and Pin Down), and run with it on 11+3/11+1/8/3+1.

Peace,
-CxE

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 27, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keramon

Think you will find the Hunter's set gives +5 and the Druid's Set gives +9.

So yes, the Druid's set gives extra energy at the cost of +15AL vs Piercing Attacks. (in comparison with the hunter's set).

This site (which I use to reference most things) has Hunter's at +1 energy per piece. I believe the Ranger armors were updated, but I'll have to assume that's an error because we're the only ones that say it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

I used Hunter's Shot extensively during this past Beta and it was only 5 energy to cast... with... I dunno how long of a recharge, but it wasn't long at all. It was the 5 energy cost that initially drew me to it, in favour of Dual Shot. (So unless they change things for the next event, it's 5)

No one's gotten around to the Ranger skills here yet, I believe, least of all me. KT has it at 5, GWOnline has it at 10. Both updated on the 18th. I'll take your word for it and say it's down to 5 because I believe it was 10 previously. That does make it better, a lot better, but I still maintain that for most of these build Dual Shot is markedly better and as long as you have Dual Shot and Barrage what you get from Hunter's Shot is not worth what you'd have to leave behind to have it.

For comparison's sake, where Hunter's is ahead is energy, at 5 energy to start with dropped to 2 with Expertise 13, and a recharge of 5 you'll actually gain energy spamming that as opposed to the 10 energy (really 5 with Expertise 13) Dual Shot where you'll just be breaking even over those same 5 seconds (actually, attack times and all mean you'll come out a little ahead of regeneration because you'll spend a second or two attacking). But Dual Shot does more damage. Hunter's is your bow's damage +24 +your additional damage sources. Dual is dmg x 150% +your adds x2. With a decent bow you're ahead there with Dual.

As for Read the Wind vs. Favorable Winds, there are benefits and drawbacks to both sides. Favorable Winds will boost any archer on the field while RTW only works for you. RTW will add more damage to your shots with high Marksmanship than Favorable Winds will. But, Favorable Winds will last for 120 odd seconds while RTW will last for 12 seconds. And that's really why you use Favorable (Not here, here you avoid using RTW because it's a prep and Barrage will strip your preps off every time you use it.). It's up for 2 minutes and you can forget about it. At a cost of 5 energy with a 5 second casting time it costs you only that 5% DP to use as you'll regen 5 energy by the time you've finished casting it. RTW, on the other hand, will need to be recast every 12 seconds and cost you 2 energy (With 13 Expertise) every time you do it. Not that big of an energy burden to bear, all things considered, but a lot more than 5 energy every 2 minutes. But what really hurts with RTW is the mere fact that you have to spend those few seconds - it's a 2 second casting time - each and every 12 seconds. That's time you're spending buffing up your attacks and not attacking. RTW actually hurts your DPS nearly as much as it helps it because you'll spend so much time maintaining it.

The Death Penalty cost of a ritual doesn't overly bother me. That's a loss of something like 24hp and 1~2 energy. On a character with a lot of natural defense with a base 70AL+30AL armor and a longer energy bar thanks to Expertise. You don't want to keep casting that ritual over and over or load up with 5 or 6 on your skill bar but you can easily afford to cast just the one. Especially because you can wipe out DP. If you can get a morale bonus that'll wipe things out, such as in GvG, and even if you can't you can always go out and kill a few things to eliminate your penalty. And what're these builds for if not for killing things quickly and efficiently? PvP or PvE, you have two minutes of increased offense to get rid of your deficit and that's plenty of time, if you ask me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bgnome

not sure if this was mentioned, but the article has a minor rune of air magic listed for the ran/ele..

It was indeed. Re-read the first paragraph or so of the roundtable transcript because it's the first thing about the build I mentioned. There are no secondary runes so it's a mistake. The build posted in the roundtable article was taken exactly from this post by Weezer, warts and all. It's corrected on the version of Weezer's build in our database but I figured I'd leave it in so I could mention that such a thing was impossible in case anyone was confused by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaynan

i know you're going to be spammed with requests for a review, so how about working with a mes/nec or a nec/mes? i can't decide which flavor i like better!

Oh no. Ensign'll hand me up by my toes if we do a nec/mes build. No offense to you - I've known several fine nec/mes or mes/necs and even played a few myself - but, at least at one point, it seemed like the first thing anyone did when logging onto a GW forum was to post a nec/mes build. They just got kinda off-putting after awhile.

That said, it's not a bad combination. The problem is that you'll be relegating yourself largely to a supporting role as both Mesmer and Necro have problems dealing damage consitently. Most Mesmer damage is reliant on situational factors that are hard for you to control like Backfire or Fragility. And most Necro damage is second-rate and what's not requires health sacrifices or corpses to use and that can make things difficult. You won't be putting people down quickly, you'll be either supporting your team or setting the enemy up for some pain. Mesmer and Necro can both be very good at disruption although their skill lines don't really synergize all that much. Still, things like Mailaise with Power Leak or Lingering Curse on a Monk-hating Mesmer (Hmm, can you tell I really like the Curse line?) can work very well.

As for which way to go, neither primary attribute offers much to die for. Necromancer skills, the good ones anyway, don't have the huge casting times of the Elementalist list so they don't benefit from Fast Casting as much. And Mesmer already includes a lot of energy management so you don't really need to rely on Soul Reaping. And neither has much in the way of skills linkd to it, so that's not a factor. The choice really comes down to which sets of armor you like better (Personally, I'd go Necromancer for things like the Necrotic set oer the Mesmer choices) and which of your attributes need boosts from runes and/or headgear more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Saus - the recycle times are high enough when you have Tiger's Fury running that you'll need a 3rd attack skill. Without it you can go Barrage/Dual/Barrage/Debilitating, but with it Dual and Debilitating won't recycle within 3 bow shots so you work in Hunter's. Hunter's is the best choice of what's left over because it's cheap, it does nearly as much damage as a Power Shot, and it will get you some incidental bleeding sometimes. It's due for a nerf to 10 energy, but until they do that might as well abuse it.

I'll take your word for it, but if that's the case, what I'd work in would be Distracting Shot. Somewhere they're going to be trying to use a skill and or make an attack or something...

Still, if you were really going for all out damage, I could see dropping something like Pin Down in favor of Hunter's Shot.

But, then, my concerns become whether or not you can actually afford all those skills. It depends how fast you can attack, of course, but two 2 energy skills, and two 5 energy skills all being used within five or six seconds sounds like you'll be running at a significant deficit. Granted, you can keep it up for a long while starting with your 23~24 energy pool but at what point would you actually be attacking *too* fast? The point of a Ranged is low-cost sustained ranged damage, isn't it?

Pharalon · Feb 27, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

But, then, my concerns become whether or not you can actually afford all those skills. It depends how fast you can attack, of course, but two 2 energy skills, and two 5 energy skills all being used within five or six seconds sounds like you'll be running at a significant deficit. Granted, you can keep it up for a long while starting with your 23~24 energy pool but at what point would you actually be attacking *too* fast? The point of a Ranged is low-cost sustained ranged damage, isn't it?

That's why you have a zealous bow. With the attack spped + Dual + Barrage you'll effectively be at 4-5 pips of regen (depending on how many targets you're hitting with barrage). You should be able to last the entire length of a skirmish and not have any concerns at all about energy.

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 27, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

That's why you have a zealous bow. With the attack spped + Dual + Barrage you'll effectively be at 4-5 pips of regen (depending on how many targets you're hitting with barrage). You should be able to last the entire length of a skirmish and not have any concerns at all about energy.

Oh no. That simply couldn't be the case. Equipment in Guild Wars is balanced just right, there are no uber items that will enable you to run a strategy that wouldn't be possible without that item nor any items that put those who don't use them at a significant disadvantage.

Yes, a Zealous bow is definitly called for here, preferably one with a +speed modifier, if that's even possible. We kinda glossed over equipment, but that was a point I wanted to make during the roundtable. Zealous+Barrage = goodness.

So, alright, we want Hunter's Shot, yet with a a Zealous bow and Barrage we're less concerned with energy, the duration on Tiger's Fury isn't such an issue and 'd rather have the 10 in my Element over the additional second duration for Tiger's Fury with a 6 in Beastmastery - except if it's screwing with our attack patten at 6 seconds rather than 7 - Tiger's Fury is instant cast and matches up with it's recharge already even unlinked, so if energy isn't going to be a problem, why not get that extra +1 or +2 to damage? I'd still go with a 11/10/10/1 base.

So, what's about this build, then :

Angrier Archer

Exp {P} : 13 (11+2) or 14 (11+3)
Beast : 2 (1+1)
Marks : 12 (10+2)
Element of Choice : 10
APS : 200
APU : 0

Barrage {E} (Marks)
Debilitating Shot (Exp)
Distracting Shot (Exp)
Tiger's Fury (Beast)
Dual Shot (Marks)
Favorable Winds (Marks)
Hunter's Shot (Marks)
Conjure Whatever (Ele)

Druid + Hunter's set
Zealous shortbow (or whatever's got a good RoF)
Major/Superior Exp, Minor Marks, Beast Runes
+Marks Mask

Weezer_Blue · Feb 27, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

haha... I'll never got my hands on a Zealous Grip. Those things are extremely rare... buying one would cost me everything down to my greyish boxers! Man... No more break-dancing lessons either. I'm going to really have to cut back. But yeah... It's an über (ü = althold 0252onnumpad releasealt) item that changes a battle completely.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 27, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

As for Read the Wind vs. Favorable Winds, there are benefits and drawbacks to both sides. Favorable Winds will boost any archer on the field while RTW only works for you. RTW will add more damage to your shots with high Marksmanship than Favorable Winds will. But, Favorable Winds will last for 120 odd seconds while RTW will last for 12 seconds. And that's really why you use Favorable (Not here, here you avoid using RTW because it's a prep and Barrage will strip your preps off every time you use it.). It's up for 2 minutes and you can forget about it. At a cost of 5 energy with a 5 second casting time it costs you only that 5% DP to use as you'll regen 5 energy by the time you've finished casting it. RTW, on the other hand, will need to be recast every 12 seconds and cost you 2 energy (With 13 Expertise) every time you do it. Not that big of an energy burden to bear, all things considered, but a lot more than 5 energy every 2 minutes. But what really hurts with RTW is the mere fact that you have to spend those few seconds - it's a 2 second casting time - each and every 12 seconds. That's time you're spending buffing up your attacks and not attacking. RTW actually hurts your DPS nearly as much as it helps it because you'll spend so much time maintaining it.

I agree with you, but for this kind of build only. If you were running a Ranger Primary that used skills that were not always Bow-Specific you'd be wasting a decent amount of that 120 seconds and still receive the full 5% DP. In my experience, 2 seconds, near the middle of the battle, is not THAT long. It actually is quite fast and it's pretty specific (and cheap). I can cast it, get off a few shots and then use some of my other skills that aren't only for bow attacks... meanwhile, I have no lasting penalty to worry about. It's become almost second nature while playing. Casting Read the Wind as the enemy approaches, and using Hunter's Shot + a normal bow attack in between the Hunter's Recharge. Now, I don't have Conjure Frost or Barrage, so the situations are totally different.

My point is that Hunter's Shot is a bit more flexible, in my opinion... but again, I have no experience with Favourable Winds, lol... I'm not as lucky as some of you who can test infinitly every conceivable build whenever you like, :P

Good article by the way.

Ensign · Feb 27, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

I'll take your word for it, but if that's the case, what I'd work in would be Distracting Shot. Somewhere they're going to be trying to use a skill and or make an attack or something...

Distracting Shot should make the cut, it just isn't part of the Barrage/Debilitating/Dual/Hunter's pattern. You use it when you think you can hit someone with it, not as part of any regular cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Granted, you can keep it up for a long while starting with your 23~24 energy pool but at what point would you actually be attacking *too* fast? The point of a Ranged is low-cost sustained ranged damage, isn't it?

Well, let's do that then. Tiger's Fury drops you down to a 1.5 second refire from a 2 second refire (33% faster) For 7 seconds. So a full Barrage/Dual/Barrage/Debilitating/Barrage/Hunter's cycle is 6 shots in 9 seconds. Let's use Tiger's Fury at 6 seconds, like you're suggesting, which makes it something you re-use every four shots at a cost of 4 energy per six seconds or 6 energy per 9. Your bow attacks cost 2 for Barrage and Hunter's, 4 for Debilitating and Dual, for a net cost of 2*4 + 4*2 = 16 energy per cycle. So overall you're spending energy at a rate of 22 energy per nine seconds.

Now, if you're just living on normal regen you'd get back 9 energy per 9 seconds, for a net expenditure of 13 energy per 9 or 1.44 energy per second, meaning that you'll drain a pool of 27 energy (25 + 1 gloves + 1 boots) in around 19 seconds.

Toss in a Zealous Bow, which really makes this build hum, and your natural regen drops to 6 energy per nine seconds, but, assuming that you hit two targets with Barrage, you get back 6+2+1+1 = 10 energy per nine seconds from your energy gain bow, for 16 total energy regen per nine seconds. That drops your net expenditures to 6 energy per nine seconds, meaning you can run this loop continuously for 40 seconds before having to stop and recharge.

If Barrage can hit three different targets, then you get back 9+2+1+1 energy per nine from your bow, dropping your net expenditures to 3 energy per nine seconds and letting you keep on refiring for 80 seconds nonstop. Of course, if you can hit 4+ targets with each Barrage you've gone infinite.

Also, if you do run out of energy you just drop the Tiger's Fury. Then you're spending 16 energy on your six bow attacks, but get back 8 per 12 (slower attack rate) from regen and still 10 from your attack skills - assuming two hits from Barrage - equalling eighteen, meaning you're now regenerating energy. Thus the basic plan is ~30-40 seconds of straight skill spam to drain your energy, then losing the speed buff and just continuing to pound away until you're ready to crank it up again.

Attacking too fast? Nah, I don't think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Oh no. Ensign'll hand me up by my toes if we do a nec/mes build.

Hell right I will. What would be the point, anyway? 99% of Mesmer/Necro builds aren't *supposed* to be good, they're a starving artist's stab at creativity, with the medium being an awful Guild Wars character. Evaluating one would merely pervert the original vision.

99% of Mesmer/Necro build evaluations start with either 'drop Necro for...' or 'drop Mesmer for...'. It's a character combination that has a hell of a time soloing, is last picked for PvE squads, is never what someone wants in PvP. It's a gorgeous pair of breasts on a third degree burn victim - fun to stare at but ultimately just a bunch of wasted potential.

I love Mesmers, I love Necros. I hate the combination. You'd think that it would give you the tools to excel in any situation, but in reality you end up without the tools to ever be practical in any situation. You manage your health and energy, make your opponent's life miserable, put yourself is a winning position, and are completely incapable of capitalizing upon it.

There are some very specific builds for niche situations where you want a Mesmer/Necro. Most of the time, though, you just don't want to be wasting a slot on such an inflexible character.

Peace,
-CxE

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 28, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

No one's been replying to this and I had a point to make/question to ask and I really want to say it... so I'm going to.

With Favourable Winds, if Rangers are becoming so popular, isn't there a chance that the other team will have a Ranger who casts it for you? Sure that's a chance to take, but it's something to think about... I think so anyway. Maybe I'm just a little greenhorn, but even in 4v4, I've seen Natural Winds cast (by the other team) a decent amount.

Weezer_Blue · Feb 28, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

No one's been replying to this and I had a point to make/question to ask and I really want to say it... so I'm going to.

With Favourable Winds, if Rangers are becoming so popular, isn't there a chance that the other team will have a Ranger who casts it for you? Sure that's a chance to take, but it's something to think about... I think so anyway. Maybe I'm just a little greenhorn, but even in 4v4, I've seen Natural Winds cast (by the other team) a decent amount.

it happens occasionally but usually not at the time you yourself would want it cast. i usually see it cast once i'm out of the picture or i'm not much of a threat or most of all when they have more rangers than my team. even if it affects everyone, having the control over it is well worth the DP.

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 28, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

With Favourable Winds, if Rangers are becoming so popular, isn't there a chance that the other team will have a Ranger who casts it for you? Sure that's a chance to take, but it's something to think about... I think so anyway. Maybe I'm just a little greenhorn, but even in 4v4, I've seen Natural Winds cast (by the other team) a decent amount.

Yes, someone else might cast Favorable Winds. In that case, you've just saved yourself 5 seconds and 5% DP. But you can't count on someone to do it for you. That's why, if you need it, and these builds sorely need it (The key here is that we're mostly using bows that attack as quickly as possible, those bows usually have poor arcs or flight times to their arrows, even though you pluck your bow every so often it takes a bit of time for each bow to reach its target. What RTW or Favorable Winds does is to shorten that flight time making your arrows strike faster because they'll spend less time travelling. That's a big aid when you're trying to time an interrupt like Distracting Shot or you're catching a group of moving enemies who've strayed too close together.), then you'll want to bring it yourself to cast in case no one else does. The exception is if you already know the exact build your opponent is using and they're going to be using Favorable Winds in it. Then you leave it behind and find soemthing else.

In short, you can plan for your enemy's actions, you can count on them moving or attacking or casting spells, for the most part and plan accordingly. But you can't really plan for their skills, for the specific steps they're going to take and when they're goign to take them. Not every Ranger will want Favorable Winds, not every build will benefit from it so you cannot rely on someone else to bring the lynchpin of your strategy.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 28, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Yeah, I understand that, I was juts putting it out there... the chances are as good as any... which isn't THAT good.

If anything, you could wait and see if the Enemy casts it before you do, to save yourself the trouble... Again, this is all situational at best.

Besides, I just wanted some attention... :P j/k