Curse

ratatass · Mar 14, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

We have all discussed numerous builds for Warriors, and with our knowledgeable contributors at the site discussing/advising on optimum performance for sword, axe and hammer warriors. With such a focus the tunnel gets narrower and narrower, we are more and more coming to the same conclusions.

We have all agreed on the basics for the Warrior: Induce conditions, snare and kill. We have 3 lines of weapon use: the axe, sword and hammer. Most PvP build also focuses on taking out casters, primarily Monks which are the lifeline of a team. We focus a lot on speed, with Frenzy and Flurry. For Warrior/E the focus is to conjure him with somthing and inducing even more conditions. Burning seems to be the favourite, along with skills like Immolate.

So with these guidelines it seems the Sword warrior is coming out on top, closely followed by the Axe Warrior. It is all personal preference though.

In my experiences in the Tombs as a Monk I usually encounter Warriors – yes they seem to love Monks. I would say ¾ of them are making me bleed, then follow up with a Deep Wound.

When, I see them coming I usually don’t run, because I know I probably will usually suffer two conditions (Conditions doesn't stack) and I am right pretty much always. They both usually carry a sword and both of them are using the same skills. The exceptions are the upper level teams with a strategy. I get very leery when I see a Ranger/Warrior and a Mesmer/Warrior coming sprinting up though – it is usually bad news, but to my surprise many of those guys also just make me bleed and induce a condition or two. So, I have been thinking that they must be using the same skills too.

The more I think about it, when we all discuss the optimum builds - the more obvious it seems that it is all preference and opinion. There are optimum builds out there, and with that I mean builds that yield high DPS and induce conditions.

But, how effective is this then if we all come up with the same conclusions and roughly the same builds? Again, excluding the upper level guilds like The Fianna. Most of the players in the forums are here to get questions answered and me, included not experienced team builders. We can only ask the same questions: How can I optimze my build in regard to DPS. How can I stay alive ? As examples.

I am tempted to rebuild my W/Mo - who is an "optimum" build for a sword warrior -with max conditions, healing, etc to something more odd. I think I would be better off designing my W/Mo based on what I think the other Warriors are going to bring, assuming they induce conditions and are putting something on fire...which seems to be what all want to do for DPS.

What is the point of 3 x W/?? with all identical skills in PvP. All 3 of us trying to cripple or deep wound the sucker or stack 3 x bleeding on him- he he not very efficient.

In PvP I would say 80% use swords, whereas 25% a dragon sword with a fiery hilt. Different polls shows otherwise in forums - but they include PvE.

We are all starting to look the same. I don't have the time to raise a W/Me or W/E before release, but I see that it is safe to assume that in a random PvP group I would be better of by designing a warrior with the assumption that they are going to suffer from conditions regardless- so I then can drop all of my condition induced skills and focus on amplifying theirs.

I bet you a pile of dirt, that if you end up in a group of 3 Warriors, at least 2 of them are going to carry the same basic skills.

What I am saying is the more I study the game and it’s mechanics, the more convinced I become that steering away from the “optimum” Warrior builds could gain your group extra punch and better results in PvP. The other professions seems to encourage more diversity. I think that for the next rounds in the Tombs I will build a group trying not to replicate a Warrior times 3.

Maybe I will get some nasty surprises in the Tombs and not just an "Attack of the Clones"

My 0.02$

Ratatass

Loviatar · Mar 14, 2005, 02:17 AM // 02:17

dont forget that these builds are from early in the game and there may be surprises out there that will alter things as counters to todays popular build are developed

i see a constant shifting of skills and builds coming along with someone cooking up a real sneaky build that works and clones of that etc

Nash · Mar 14, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

It's the W/Mo premade... My build smokes it though.

Greentongue · Mar 14, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

If this is the case, so everyone will be using Melandru's Resilience.

Melandru's Resilience ELITE (Stance) For 8..18 seconds, you gain +2 Health regeneration and +1 Energy regeneration for each Condition and Hex you are suffering.

FireMarshal · Mar 14, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06

I expect to see patterns happen often in PvP combat. Expect one thing to become a norm for a while, until people either get tired of it, or a counter becomes more common for it. I typically try to go against the grain a little though.

cpukilla · Mar 14, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Best thing I can think of is to try and anticipate what you will see the most. Thats exactly why I'm trying a monk/ranger with melandru's resilience. Because the first thing they do when they target the monk is hex/condition em to weaken. Oh and it works great with draw conditions too

PhineasToke · Mar 14, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

My readings by the 'experts' here all seem to focus on the only aspect of the game they feel is important, optimum builds. Why is this so critical to success in GW? Why do any of us have to follow a path that leads us to be just one more lemming in a giant herd of lemmings? If the game is designed to solely result in optimum builds for optimum competition against optimum guilds, how long before 7/8 of the players become discouraged? If everything comes down to pre-concieved yet evolving character niches, then everyone will know what they are facing before they face it.

I'm sure we'll be told that 'better things await us'. But we've been told that by so many game designers my basement is running out of storage space. Why isn't free form and discovery encouraged? Why is a singular path being chosen for us when players preferences in build options should be taken into account? And why does it seem from my reading that we're going to be steered into the same 'canned' builds that made some other popular games so boring so quickly?

Choice and decision should be left to the players, not the designers. If the end result here is a path we can not choose for ourselves, but has been typecast for us, the enjoyment will dissapate quickly. Eventually, it becomes only a game of guild vs. guild, in spite of the fact that half of the players would prefer PvE over PvP. Those players must be accommodated. For them it is a matter of survival not in filling a niche in a team.

By focusing too much on a singular speciality the casual player (and there will be hundreds of thousands of them) will not be able to cover all eventualities that may come upon them either by soloing or through pick up games in random parties. These players are the basis for much of the long term success in on line games. And they should be considered.

This is a concern that must be addressed.

Weezer_Blue · Mar 14, 2005, 04:15 AM // 04:15

There will always be "flavor of the month" type builds because there are at least a thousand idiots who have no minds of their own and can't make their own build so they go by what either the majority is using or what they heard is good. This sucks because all the really awesome and original builds are kept to the creators mind alone. There is never a "best" build because there is always a way to counter it. Popular builds? Sure... Who cares?

Ensign · Mar 14, 2005, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

We have all agreed on the basics for the Warrior: Induce conditions, snare and kill.

Did we? I just thought that Victory is Mine! Warriors were the flavor of the week.

Personally I think that Warriors in that mold are wasting their time trying to be cute, time that would be better spent beating down and providing disruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

In my experiences in the Tombs as a Monk I usually encounter Warriors – yes they seem to love Monks. I would say ¾ of them are making me bleed, then follow up with a Deep Wound.

That's because Sever Artery / Gash is the core combo of the Warrior/Monk premade, AKA "the good one". Those two skills are starting skills for Warriors now. Basically if you've put zero thought into your build, you're using Sever / Gash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

The more I think about it, when we all discuss the optimum builds - the more obvious it seems that it is all preference and opinion.

No need to start pulling punches now, eh?

It all looks like personal preference because most people involved in these discussions have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

There are changes to builds that will make them better, there are 'optimal' sets of builds that will win more than the rest. Don't think for a second that your choices won't impact your winning percentage. Just because someone suggests a change to a build doesn't mean that it's a good change - it could very well make your character worse.

Solid knowledge of the game coupled with vigorous playtesting is the only way to differentiate the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

But, how effective is this then if we all come up with the same conclusions and roughly the same builds?

Then everyone who uses these similar builds is on a roughly level playing field and the best players win. Players who refuse to play a similar build will find themselves in the loser's bracket more often than they should otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

I think I would be better off designing my W/Mo based on what I think the other Warriors are going to bring, assuming they induce conditions and are putting something on fire...which seems to be what all want to do for DPS.

You never want to design individual characters in a vacuum - you need to design them in the context of a team, and how they contribute to it.

Assuming that the condition Warrior is optimal (which it isn't), then it would make sense to play non-condition Warriors on a team with its share of condition Warriors. On a team without condition Warriors, you should be playing a condition Warrior. If some other build appears to be optimal given your team, you should be running that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

What is the point of 3 x W/?? with all identical skills in PvP.

If you're all Sever/Gash Warriors? Not a whole lot. That's bad team design. 3x Pure/Galrath's/Final Thrust Warriors? That's just liquid joy.

Some character types are relatively exclusive - like Death Necromancers. You never want more than one Death Necromancer on your team, period, they just step on each other's toes. Others work better when in a team of similar builds - Elementalists synching up their attack spells is a good example.

Making sweeping generalizations about common builds is as foolish as running 3 Sever/Gash Warriors at a single target.

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