Curse

ratatass · Apr 05, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I have been pondering the storyline, now for a while and we are currently sitting at around 30% content released. I also saw in an interview with Jeff Strain that we are looking at about 25 Main missions.

Rurik dies there all alone up in the mountain, after beeing involved in 3 previous missions. The dramatic banishment of Rurik by his father leaves a not very pretty image of his Father.

In the following missions, we find out the deceit of the Mantle, we chase a Scepter back and forth, and in the last mission we wave farewell on the boat with the Secpter and the Weirdo Mage waving his Scepter.

Every story needs a hero, and yes I understand we are the Heros in the Storyline, but I find that somewhat incomplete.

We have little Gwen running around, maybe she will be the red thread throughout the story from now on, and hopefully that will play out in a good way. But I don't see the story revolving around her cathing the Hero's story line.

I know we all bitched and moaned about Rurik, but did our bitching kill him off ?

Rurik, is (looking apart from his early wild running days) and should be I think the gathering point for the Story, he took the first stand against the Char and sadly died defending Ascalon. I think it was a mistake to remove him from the story line.

It is better to let the story revolve around a person rather than objects like the Scepter of Orr. I know it is late before release and that the Story line pretty much is set by now, but I just had to voice my opinion on the matter.

I believe it would have been better to fight at the side of a leader against the Char than chasing objects around in our quests.

What do you think ?

Spooky · Apr 05, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Well... let me answer this question this way. Boogiepop Phantom remains one of my favorite anime titles. The story telling is really quite unique in the fact that, each episode revolves around one character, and their story. It isn't until you've seen it all that you realize .. each character was a piece of the greater story, and you can only really begin to put it together after you've seen it all. To just assume off of bits and pieces, you'd think there was no coherence to it, instead, merely jumping from one point to the next.

Either way, I guess i'll sum this up with a Robert Jordan quote. "RAFO!" (Read and Find Out!) or perhaps more adequately, "WAFO!" (Wait.)

Xellos · Apr 05, 2005, 06:41 AM // 06:41

No offense, but in my view, the way the story was presented in the game, no matter how great graphics were, was a joke. It feels like Diablo 2 in terms of storyline. Your more worried about reaching the next act(d2) or the next mission(gw) then care about the story in general.

I'm not saying this from a power gamers point of view. Even as someone who cares about story in games, Guild Wars has a weak portrayal of story.

1. Voice Acting - Decent, but doesn't live up to the standards of former Blizzard members. Play starcraft, a game that's nearly a decade old has better voice acting then this game no offense. Much more emotion, and you feel character within. A character like Fenix or Jim Raynor or Kerrigan is going to be remembered alot more then some Prince who has interaction levels of a three year old. The point is, with the current story(even if we are "missing out" on most of the content, it should technically be the same kind of feeling) and how it's presented is weak, and can never contend with other games. It is mostly on the fault of how this game is, and what type of genre it is. You won't expect Counter-Strike to have a good story, so don't expect it from here.

2. Facial Expressions - Face it, watching some guy talk with a B-rated script while his zoomed up face isn't moving just isn't immersive. Starcraft had those little portraits as did warcraft 3. This added alot to make the characters feel real. Knights of the Old Republic expanded on this on a 3-d level, and though it wasn't too great, at least the character moving their head once in a while or flail their arms in reaction helps the zoom up.

3. Diablo 2 esque methods - Notice how you first start off with Gwen at most if she even counts as a side character, then get Rurik, then go with Halbion for awhile. There's rarely interactions between you and Rurik, let alone to make it feel real. Ruriks reactions during missions are lame, and are like a tape recorder. They aren't even voiced. There's simply no choice in the matter. The way it's done currently no offence, simply doesn't feel like your part of the story in much way. Your like the characters from diablo 2. Sure, your heroic, your legendary. But does anyone have a clue who you are? Not really. Did you ever make a impact besides kill things and do quests that any other generic hero can do? No. There is nothing that makes you stand out. Worst part is, they can't even cover it up by having 2 NPCs exchange conversations correctly. The king and Rurik were alright, but like I said in the above, things with cinematics ruin the mood. Erol and Rurik during Surmia was a joke, half the time Erol was just some meat shield that was just waiting to be offed.

There's probably more reasons, but the point is, the game has even less care towards story then PVE. And PVE has been argued back of forth to the death about how far this game should go on it. PVP is obviously on a different level then PVE. But so is comparing PVE to the story element. Diablo 2 had a few people who cared about NPC names, the lore, and other things; but the majority doesn't give because it simply doesn't attract the normal gamers attention. This applies to Guild Wars, since you pretty much don't see storyline discussions in any of the forums. Games like warcraft, starcraft, knights of the old republic, never winter nights, etc etc, even some that were pretty bad, had people talking about story more then this game.

It's most likely how the game was built. Notice how most people in MMORPG's won't give a rats flail about the lore. WoW had a better situation from the fact that it had a huge background universe in the first place, but even then, just the fact that half the players probably don't have a clue who Uther the Lightbringer is already proof that a MMORPG/Online RPG type approach is rather weak in story. Since your character does not seem to make any personal impacts.

I would say there is no point in trying to further the story, and hope the expansion does it some justice. It's 3 weeks before release I believe, and unless they've been hiding all the things I've mentioned their lacking, there's no way their going to pull out a quality Blizzard-type(old blizzard thank you) story that can attract people who were only regular gamers.

I'm not saying story isn't nessecary(sp?), but it definately is the games weakest point. The fact that people are still caring about balance(rightfully so), PVE, and everything else in general leaves very little for story. We might as well put the mindset on leaving it as it is for now, and hope when the game finally is more stabilized, they can slowly stream the needed changes to the game(personally, I've never seen streaming in action once besides those BWE endings, which I don't really consider streaming since it's in town...)

Anyways, I've posted too much. But I think my post was valid, since I highly doubt any of you can say your very in the story the past BWE's have presented.

SisterMercy · Apr 05, 2005, 11:46 AM // 11:46

I'd actually like to see other characters developed, with different mission paths, although this would probably be something for the expansions. I agree with Spooky that the current characters and story arcs could work best as a smaller part of a greater whole. And as the different possible paths our characters can take diversifies, it leaves more of a feeling of actually choosing our characters' destinies.

I'll disagree with the other comments about the current storylines. While there are some anomalies, such as the expressions and lips not moving, I definitely think that the cinematics should not overshadow the game. They're there to provide a framework for the missions, and I'd rather see the developers invest time into the game than in the cinematics that most players by nature will want to skip all the time anyway.

Dhomohappy · Apr 05, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Im more of a story line person than a PvP gamer. PvP in GW is just a extra feature for me. The way they set up the cinematics in GW is just to tell you certain things to progress the storyline or the mission. Making a moving face is not a top concern, id rather see more backround and info about the world than having them waste months on having someone show emotions.

Uthar · Apr 05, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

I think that right now, trying to judge the entire story line without having seen the entire game is useless.

That said, from the examples we've had, the story seems fairly weak. Conversations are filled with the wonderful old cliches. Characters for some reason seem to be just objects to be abused (i.e., Rurik). Here's a question: What happens to Rurik's wife-to-be, what's her name? She's in the Pre-Searing, and there's even a whole quest around finding her the perfect gift... but afterwards, do we find out what happened to her? Does Rurik mention it? he seems strangely unmoved.

Even if he doesn't like to talk about it, why doesn't someone else tell us?

I agree about the voice acting, as well. I think A-net would be just as well off to leave the lines unvoiced, if that's what the acting is going to sound like.

Also, for those complaining about characters' facial expressions... why do you think the requirements for the game aren't as high as many other games? There are certain trade-offs, unfortunately.

chalt2 · Apr 05, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uthar

I think that right now, trying to judge the entire story line without having seen the entire game is useless.

First, I'd hav to agree with that statement.

Second, I'd like to see the storyline be centered around player characters, "we" as the characters that either succeed or fail the mission or quest should factor in the story and since each story is run out only for the people in that session. Now please don't get me wrong, I have no issues with how the game has played up to this point but I do feel there is room for a bit of a tweak here and there.

Let me state it this way, if my understanding is correct there is "fame" to be had or gained through the PvP system, right, so why can't there be "fame" gained through the PvE side as well?

Since each player has the storyline "react" to their actions why can't there also be "fame" gained by completing missions and or quests?

The more successful you are the more "fame" you get, for example if you complete the defence of the North wall on your first foray into it, then it should be worth the most "fame" points, if it takes you 12 times then you get significantly less or no points and so on.

Now granted there are XP awards, Skill awards, Gold rewards and so on, could there not be a "fame" reward, a point system that would allow your character to rise up to a status of Hero?

IxChel · Apr 05, 2005, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I like Rurik. The scene I look forward to when Rurik finds out that he lost his beloved. Then the classic stages of disbelief, grief, and raw anger would be appropriate. His 'rampaging' nature shouldn't be protrayed as reckless, but rather as a Prince furious over his lost home and love. As for the scene where he gets banished; a straight face is the most appropriate look -- not only did he lose his home and love, but now is father. Astonishment and shock is the emotion here... not anger or tears as what other people in this forum have stated (perhaps we see tears later). When faced with massive grief, compounded by further loss, people like Ruirk don't get angry. They are contemplative... trying to understand what's happening, and saddened. His death is perfect, a tragic ending to a tragic story.

Rurik lacks a pre-searing introduction where you get to know him a bit before tragety strikes. And then a scene right after the searing; but before you start helping him. As for the death scene, I kinda like it. It puts closure on a dead royal family... although, perhaps the king actually survives... and we get to see him either: (a) recognize his mistakes and attempt to atone after his son has shown him true valor, (b) sinks to wallow, dispair, and commits suicide, (c) shows his true form and becomes a murderous coward... stealing from the meek and poor. I'd love to see (c) and be able to kill the bastard!

The problem with Gwen is that her relation to the royal family isn't clear, nor is she developed much beyond that of a non-fighting healer henchie. In general, without supporting actors, its hard to have any good character development.

efiloN · Apr 05, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

I'm for the "my group are the heroes" thing.
Last time I played through the missions, it was built so you got to know some of the characters on the way, and I guess that the plot will thicken later on. This is only the first of many chapters.

But they have said that every chapter will have an end. So wait for the game and do all the missions first before you say it sucks. Try to read the lore book, talk to npcs in the game, don't rush.

I haven't read anything except the cut-scenes because I don't wanna spoil everything for retail.

IceD'Bear · Apr 05, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhomohappy

Making a moving face is not a top concern, id rather see more backround and info about the world than having them waste months on having someone show emotions.

The loremasters reveal a lot of the story, and other NPCs too. If you care for the story, you have to find the little pieces yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uthar

Here's a question: What happens to Rurik's wife-to-be, what's her name? She's in the Pre-Searing, and there's even a whole quest around finding her the perfect gift... but afterwards, do we find out what happened to her?

I suggest you do some quests in the explorable areas if you want to find this out

vai demine · Apr 05, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Regarding Rurik, is he annoying in the BWEs--yeah, a little. But Gaile and others have said that when we see the whole story, we'll understand why he's such a bull-headed character.

As to the story, similar to Spooky's Boogiepop Phantom, one of my favorite stories right now is ABC's Lost. Not necessarily because of the characters themselves, but more how they are developed--a different character (or couple) is developed each episode (through flashbacks mostly) and the main story is fleshed out that way. If nothing else, it keeps me watching to see who gets developed next.

And I also agree with Uthar, there's not point criticizing the product yet, we're still testing. Judging by the changes we see each month in the betas, there's no reason to assume that they can't still make major changes before release. Let's just be patient and see the final product before making any final judgements.

Ciao,
Vai

Dreamsmith · Apr 05, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

... It's 3 weeks before release I believe, and unless they've been hiding all the things I've mentioned their lacking, there's no way their going to pull out a quality Blizzard-type(old blizzard thank you) story that can attract people who were only regular gamers.

Well, they already have a deeper and richer story than any Blizzard game has ever had. And three weeks be damned, there sure were a lot of changes in the dialog and cutscenes in the last BWE from the one before. I particularly like how Rurik now starts questioning his father's actions well before their final conversation, so their rift doesn't appear out of the blue. I also like the little touches like the madman yelling incoherent prophecy about the end times -- turns out it's real prophecy, particularly the bit, "Follow the prince although he is doomed!" Nice foreshadowing. There are a hundred little bits like this scattered about the place. Anyone who really cares will be able to put it together. If your complaint is that it's not rammed down everyone's throats, I don't see that as valid. Anyone who wants the full story can find it if they look...

I can't argue the quality of Blizzard's voice acting, though. Did you know the actor who was the voice of Deckard Cain is the same guy who played Batman's butler? I don't think Guild Wars has bad voice acting (cf. Aquanox), but it's hard to compete with the voice actors Blizzard put together. Until AN has the money to hire the likes of Harrison Ford, James Earl Jones, Uma Thurman, and the like, we'll just have to live with decent but not spectacular voice acting... I've been watching anime for years, I'm used to it.

Allah_Mode · Apr 05, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

i think saying that player "Allah_Mode" is the hero in the story would be kind of, uhh. . . Stupid... Because it's a MMO. I think the main story line should follow a NPC, doesnt really matter to me which one, just as long as the story stays interesting.

Dreamsmith · Apr 05, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allah_Mode

i think saying that player "Allah_Mode" is the hero in the story would be kind of, uhh. . . Stupid... Because it's a MMO. I think the main story line should follow a NPC, doesnt really matter to me which one, just as long as the story stays interesting.

Actually, what you're talking about is one of the shortcomings of MMOs that they've specifically said they don't like. You're supposed to be the hero of this story, unlike an MMO where that isn't really possible because everyone's in the same world and everyone can't be the heroes. Thankfully, this not being an MMO in the traditional sense, we don't have to suffer under those constraints. We can all be the heroes that lead the refugees of Ascalon to safety in Kryta, because we all have our own instances of the storyline to do it in.

If it then turns out "Allah_Mode" is a poor hero, that's hardly their fault. MMOs never have a good plot. They can't, due to the constraints of the format. Everyone would have to be there at the same time to see things happening, or they'd miss out. With a game like GW, that's not a problem. The worst thing they could do, storyline-wise, is start acting like an MMO.

Allah_Mode · Apr 05, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

i played diablo II for about... let's just say waaaayyyyy too damn long. And i'm tired of being the hero in that game, sometimes i wanna go rescue someone, or do shit for someone. Instead of, Please go kill mephisto, please go kill diablo, now kill baal plz, kthx.... Then you beat the game and all you have done is run around and kill bosses. frustrating playing that game after playing guild wars.

Dreamsmith · Apr 05, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allah_Mode

i played diablo II for about... let's just say waaaayyyyy too damn long. And i'm tired of being the hero in that game, sometimes i wanna go rescue someone, or do shit for someone. Instead of, Please go kill mephisto, please go kill diablo, now kill baal plz, kthx.... Then you beat the game and all you have done is run around and kill bosses. frustrating playing that game after playing guild wars.

You're laboring under a false dilemma. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both, and indeed it is. Go rescue someone, go do shit for someone, play delivery man for Bodrus one day and save the world some other day. The nice thing about Guild Wars is, you can have it both ways. If you take two weeks to get around to saving the world, so be it -- the plot doesn't march on without you like it would in an MMO...

BlackArrow · Apr 05, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky

Either way, I guess i'll sum this up with a Robert Jordan quote. "RAFO!" (Read and Find Out!) or perhaps more adequately, "WAFO!" (Wait.)

*shudder* the infamous RAFO. I've been waiting for much too long for Jordan's series to end. WoT would have been way better if he would have gotten it down to 6 books instead of the ever expanding 13 books. (maybe it's 14+ now?)

Anyways, back on topic. The storyline does seem weak right now because we've barely seen any of it. The Searing, Rurik, and the White Mantle don't seem connected to me at all, but I hope that once I play through the whole story, it will make sense.

Lunarhound · Apr 05, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Guild Wars has a lot of potential as far as story goes. There are many creative ways that a game like this could utilize some of its more unique aspects to create a real sense of immersion above and beyond what's already been done.

Unfortunately, I don't think most of this potential will ever be realized. The GW community in general just isn't very friendly toward new ideas (which I've always found a bit odd, since most were drawn to GW because of the things that made it unique to begin with) and would rather see the devs working on new PvP maps than finding interesting ways to draw the player into the world. Story is considered fluff that doesn't really matter compared to other, more "important" issues. As a result, we're probably going to have to learn to live with somewhat hollow NPC's and bland Player Characters that don't really feel like they're part of the story. The real shame in all of this is that it doesn't have to be that way.

Allah_Mode · Apr 05, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

personally, i love a good story line, and am wide open to any ideas. I played planetside for a year and a half, and trust me. That is a MMO that has no %%$ story line what-so-ever. PvP to me, is kinda "eh". I won't be playing Pvp until my guild has fully leveled out of PvP characters and are comfortable enough with the game to get pwned thousands of times and not get burned out

Weezer_Blue · Apr 05, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

The story is fine as it is - if not for a couple little holes and loose ends.

Prince Rurik's death was the single best part of the entire pre-Lion's Arch mission line!