Curse

Acan Vishnu · Apr 25, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Don't forget that being in beta phase is going to skew your point of view quite a bit... So far you've been able to plan 24/7, while only being able to play one weekend each month. Nothing can really substitute the experience you gain from playing the game, which is exactly why having Alpha Testers around is so darned useful -- they can provide surrogate information for you (but even that only goes so far). Only so much can be gained by reading a skill's description, you don't know how it will work until you've used it yourself, up to that point you only assume.

Once the game comes out I know for a fact I'll be spending much less time leafing through forums, looking at build ideas and sketching out my own and spending much more time down in the nitty gritty finding it all out for myself. Nothing can replace that kind of experience.

tektonik · Apr 25, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

I once heard someone say Guild Wars is 90% planning and 10% execution. I have to say that I agree. I've spend as much as 5 hours coming up with a build for a match that might only last 20 minutes.

I highly disagree you can spend all the time in the world on a build but execution is crucial. Body blocking is hard to do but can really help in GvG. knowing when to use a skill is also crucial. There are so many things that look good on paper but do poorly in the real...fake? world

Takkun[CRNR] · Apr 25, 2005, 10:50 PM // 22:50

I would have to say this is how I view PvPing and GvGing:

Planning - 18.8%%
Reaction timing - 23.8%%
Skill Timing - 22.5%
Placement/Targetting/Teamwork/Formations - 27.7%

What is needed in these areas:

Planning - It is possible to succeed without a plan, but when it comes to GvGing, the highest you will get w/o a plan is probably 108 or something. Planning a team build is very important, but what seems good on paper may not be as good in the midst of battle. Engineers definately have an edge in this sort of category, because they are very good at realizing this.

Reaction Timing - Of course as many have you put, you don't want to be standing around AoE, cause it stings. Plus, following your survival instincts plays a good role whatever you are doing. If your low in health, for god sakes run away, that way the enemy has only two choices, to attempt to catch up to finish you off, or go after someone else.

Skill Timing - Just read the skill descriptions, you'll know what im talking about. Mostly applies to situational skills such as interruption spells and attacks and some elementalist spells and a whole lot of warrior attacks. But i am only skimming the surface... skill timing depends on your build.

Placement/Targeting/Teamwork/Formations - It is very important to have a big sense of awareness where you are and where your enemy is. If you are a ranger or an elementalist, it is best to be higher than your opponent so your attacks do more damage. If you are a supporting monk, it is best to be out of the enemy's view so they have less of a chance to spot you and kill you first. If you area smiting monk, go wherever you please since you are tough bastards

. Warriors can go wherever they want as long as they dont go too far away from the team. Targetting is very important, because you dont want to be trying to take down a warrior for five hours because there is three monks behind him making sure he doesnt die. Teamwork is pretty obvious, stay together but not too together where you will be owned by AoE. Formations should go along with how your team builds work... if you have a normal build of damagers and healers, then healer in back, and damagers in front and such.

Cain · Apr 25, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tektonik

I highly disagree you can spend all the time in the world on a build but execution is crucial. Body blocking is hard to do but can really help in GvG. knowing when to use a skill is also crucial. There are so many things that look good on paper but do poorly in the real...fake? world

When you play with the top teams in the game twice a week you need to know what you're going to do well in advance. Not planning your strategy is planning to fail. Bring all the execution you want into a battle against Lord of the Dead, Negative Zero or Fianna, but if you don't plan your strategy well ahead of time you're not only going to lose, but they will wipe the floor with you. You have to have plan B for when plan A fails, and then you need plan C and D and E and so on. You have to expect the unexpected, espeically playing talented guilds like those mentioned. If you know you're build's strengths and more importantly it's weakness and how to deal with it, then it's just a matter of practising and making it happen.

EDIT: I'm not saying execution isn't important because it certainly is, but you need to know what it is you want to execute and that's where the planning comes in.

Xellos · Apr 25, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Just for FUN though, it's really cool when you circle strafe a volley of projectiles coming at you.

tektonik · Apr 25, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

EDIT: I'm not saying execution isn't important because it certainly is, but you need to know what it is you want to execute and that's where the planning comes in.

I am not saying execution is everything either but Definately more imporant than 20%

Maybe if you had higher execution you would change out some of those top guilds

Cain · Apr 26, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tektonik

I am not saying execution is everything either but Definately more imporant than 20%

Maybe if you had higher execution you would change out some of those top guilds

Maybe you shouldn't question how we handle our PvP because by the looks of things we're doing quite well.

The only guilds we lost to the final weekend were Fianna, IVEX (we beat them once though) and KOR. All our losses had nothing to do with our execution and everything to do with the fact that their build was a great counter to our build. KOR showed us how weak we were against melee so we made some changes. IVEX showed us how the build was weak against DoT so we made some changes. Fianna showed us how crazy energy denial hurt us so we made some slight changes. Losing to them allowed us to learn the weak points in the build so we'll be better prepared next time we face them. Sometimes you have to lose a battle or two before you win the war.

Guild Wars is about counters. The first time we fought IVEX we worked them over bad. The next we fought they worked us over because their new build was a better counter to ours. Neither team is necessarily better than the other, but rather had the better of the two builds. We've had nights in the alpha where we beat The Fianna one match, only to lose to a weaker guild the next match because their build was a great counter to ours.

Saidin · Apr 26, 2005, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorillastein

People keep saying this is skill based PvP.

How so?

tell me what I can do as a player that will give me an edge?

Never having played the game, is it possible to dodge an incoming ranged attack through reflexes?

Are we talking twitch based skill or what?

Clue me in.

Go ahead and use your leet twitched quake-based skills to dodge my attacks, and then watch me beat you with my mesmer. Your probably losing because you have an fps mindset in a game that plays more like magic the gathering.

Dodging incoming projectile attacks has NOTHING to do with the level of skill involved in GW. Twitch relflex is an fps skill. GW is more about strategy, countering and being able to out-think your opponent. Being in situations where you don't know what to do and using the proper skills and tactics to beat an opposing team.

Making builds and using them effectively IS half the skill in GW. Despite what you think.

Also, planning is as Cain said, a very large portion of the pvp skill level. Knowing skills, knowing what counters them, knowing your builds strengths and weaknesses, having plans and backup plans are all keys to winning in guild wars.

And to the person above, Cain DID mention KOR. We had 2 losses to them. We didn't have enough time or items to come up with proper counter builds to what KOR and IVEX were running. The fights against the fianna went back and forth so we knew we needed to change less for them. After fighting KOR we added in a ward, but that wasn't quite enough. After fighting IVEX we added in more removal, but it was still un-organized and rushed, so we took more losses from them.

KamiCrazy · Apr 26, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

I would have to say execution makes up about half of my game.

Sometimes my guild will lose and when we try and pinpoint the problem a lot of the time we think the loss was due to poor execution.

While planning and creating a truly competitive and diverse PvP build is no easy task and is in itself an incredibly complex and skillful endeavour, getting 8 people to play it and co-ordinate every aspect is to me even more difficult. Once you have a good build, execution becomes far more important because it's not an area where you can make simple adjustments in.

Saidin · Apr 26, 2005, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamiCrazy

Sometimes my guild will lose and when we try and pinpoint the problem a lot of the time we think the loss was due to poor execution.

In my experience this isn't always the case. In most cases we've simply got beat because we were beat by something un-accounted for in the build.

IE a well rounded build set for everything goes up against a build with 1 trick. If you were lucky enough to be able to properly counter that 1 trick in the first place then it shouldn't be so hard. But if you missed it then in most cases it doesn't matter how well you execute the plan. You have to go back to the drawing board and decide wether to re-do the build if you expect to win against that kind of thing.

After playing for so long, things like execution drop off for me and my guild mates, we know how to work, we know what to do. It simply becomes a problem of how you want to lay out the skills so that they complement themselves the best without sacrificing the damage. And then building up an attack strategy and counter-strategies. Then you go in and simply play how you would.. Execution becomes intuition for a more experienced gamer imo.

tektonik · Apr 26, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

It is about equal I say. You can have the best execution in the world but if you lack a skill that would be needed (a ward if they are all phys damage for instance) then you lacked planning. You could also have the best planning in the world(theory crafters) but you have to leave room for human timing and other variables (nothing is picture perfect like it is on paper).

Of course sometimes it is best to have 1-2 guys with heavy planning and everyone else with good execution. Too many cooks spoil the broth kinda thing.....or you can't win a war with only generals

KamiCrazy · Apr 26, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

We rarely make trick builds and when we do have a focus in the build we cover a lot of bases as well just to make sure we aren't out tricked ourselves.

To me I don't think its possible to know exactly what to do all the time, execution is a never-ending improvement area, as it includes not only how well you play your character but how well your tactics respond to what the enemy is doing.