Curse

Sausaletus Rex · Apr 18, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Spooky has his Worlds at War Realm thread, but what interests me is the very concept of the Worlds at War system itself.

Those of you who played the BWE this weekend got a glimpse at what it's going to involve. Namely, when a team from your "World" wins the Hall of Heroes in the Tombs, then special, really tough PvE maps open up for you to play. That's probably not the whole thing - at least, I hope not - but it's a good enough preview to let us know what the developers are getting at with this idea. I'm wondering what people think of the system as a whole at this point. Do you like it? Hate it? Prefer not to think about it?

As for myself, I'm skeptical of it all. For a team winning the Hall having their team or guild name appear as a global shout is a nice touch, great for bragging rights, but that team doesn't get any benefit from unlocking the WaW content themselves. It's nice but you couldn't hold the Tombs and play the WaW stuff at the same time. So you're dependant on the actions of someone else, some other team you have no input or control over in order to make your path open. And, for that matter, I found it was a bit too much of a "hurry up and wait" place. It got better after they extended the time you had to speak to the spirit and enter the map but if your world wasn't holding the hall then ou were just sitting around and waiting for the outcome of the latest hall battle. Sitting around the lobby isn't what I'm playing Guild Wars for, I want to get right to the action. In short, it's taking control of the game and the possibilities for my character out of my hands and putting it in someone else's and I don't like that one bit. Yeah, I can play a round in the Tombs against a better team and get rolled, too, but that's okay because I have the ability there to improve my chances to win myself. If I can't do that, it's my fault not anyone elses. But with WaW it seems that my reward or my penalty is going to be entirely out of my control.

Nash · Apr 18, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

As I stated back when it was announced, it's dumb how it rewards other people and not you. So getting access is indeed totally arbitrary.

What is the point of this system? What good does it add to the game? It was stated before that it's supposed to entice PvEers to play PvP, but it fails miserably at that. All I can see it adds is camping of the portals, increased "nationalism", mass migration of people to whather realm is going to be hold the Hall the most, and frustration for those left behind on the losing realm.

Many other MMORPGs are polarized into "us vs. them", take World of Warcrap where you have Alliance and Horde. Is it really so sad that people must have a group and an enemy, is the idiotic nationalist "us vs. them" mentality so widespread that people want it in their games too? Did ArenaNet feel forced to cater to these people?

HotSnack · Apr 18, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I already commented on the social problems of WaW in Spooky's thread, so I'll just comment on the game mechanics here.

As it currently is, WaW just goes against ANet's claim of making a "not preparing to have fun" game. If you wanted to play in the special EAs, you'd have needed to camp out in the ToA. Planning to warp to ToA upon hearing the announcement isn't as convenient as you would think, as you're usually already committed to doing something by the time the announcement is made, and even if you did warp over their, the avatars were usually long gone by then.

There was also the problem of me residing in the Europe World, it was a problem because the times I was able to play some GW was not peak time for Europeans, but would have been for players of different Worlds.

In other words I spent quite a bit of time camping ToA just to get a glimpse of the special EAs, as well as camping at mission points in the hopes of playing with people besides henchmen.

Rizzen Khalazar · Apr 18, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I dont like the idea at all. You should not be forced to PVP to get the other PVE maps. Everyone should have access to the maps.

torry · Apr 18, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Well..die hard PvP fans do it only for glorious reward. It is fitting that these rabid fanatics can beat their chests and say "I opened that dungeon for my horde last night" ...er..

anti_z3r0 · Apr 18, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01

It seems as if there are a few things that need to be ironed out in the system, but I think it definately has potential. A possible solution for the issue of the team that wins the HoH not benefiting from its own win, would be to give an item to access these areas at any time. This would also increase the incentive to participate in the HoH and do better there. Once a team wins the HoH, they all get a "WaW key" that they can use to gain access to the secret area once they have lost the HoH.

The initial complaint I had about this, would be the one region would be constantly winning, not giving the other regions access. This didn't seem to be too true though, since America has different time zones than Europe and Korea. This means that at a certain time, there will be a majority of Korean teams, giving a higher chance of winning to Korea. Same with the other regions.

All I know is that the idea of a semi-restricted area that is insanely difficult (if not impossible) to beat really intrigues me as a PvE'er. I had the best time down there with my friends, and would love to see more areas like those two.

IceD'Bear · Apr 18, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by anti_z3r0

Once a team wins the HoH, they all get a "WaW key" that they can use to gain access to the secret area once they have lost the HoH.

A very sweet idea!

Barkam · Apr 18, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by anti_z3r0

Once a team wins the HoH, they all get a "WaW key" that they can use to gain access to the secret area once they have lost the HoH.

Yeah, I also would like to voice my agreement on how good that idea is.

BlackArrow · Apr 18, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by anti_z3r0

A possible solution for the issue of the team that wins the HoH not benefiting from its own win, would be to give an item to access these areas at any time.

As long as the PvEers can still acces Waw without winning the tombs, I have no problem with this. Although, it should be a one time use thing, since it costs us 1 platinum a group to get in.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 18, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

It would be cool if after your guild held the Hall of Heroes, you're party was granted access to the new missions for perhaps 10 minutes after getting kicked out?

anti_z3r0 · Apr 18, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Yeah, I'm saying keep everything how it is now, but also give them an item that the winners get that they can use to gain access to the area without paying the 1 platinum (when they use it, it will dissapear. Unlimited access would just be rediculous)

As long as there is some benefit to the winners of the HoH besides a sigil.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 19, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

In the later part of the BWE, each world must hold the HoH for numerous time for the world to have their special area open. (5 times? not sure). Players were able to enter the special area much more frequent. There are some hours that korean play it like mad and hold the HoH for a long peroid, there are some hours that european play like made and hold the HoH for a long peroid... same thing with america.

I think this also help guild to have a super PvE team while having a super PvP team as well. If they arrange to have PvP team to open the place, they can send in the PvE team to get all the stuffs inside and share the good later.

Ensign · Apr 19, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I'm pretty much indifferent at this point. It's just another high-level PvE map, except it has a bunch of 'standing around and waiting' grind. Anyone who's played with me knows that I am incredibly intolerant of standing around and waiting. If I touch WaW content at all, it'll be once through for the free XP, and never again. I'll stick to maps that I can play when I want to for my PvP fixes, thanks.

Peace,
-CxE

Fatoo · Apr 19, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Sunday afternoon, I spent about 3 or 4 hours sitting in the Temple of Ages waiting on America to win 6 HoH's in a row. How stupid is this? Why would PvP effect PvE? I think this needs to be changed. Does anyone agree with this? Also, when I got in, the underworld was killer!

FaToo

The Human Torch · Apr 19, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Here's an idea: what if there was a timer that counted (in minutes) how long your world has held the HoH in total, and every 12 hours or so it would permanently unlock the next level of a large series of PvE maps? And when another world takes the hall our time would stop going up and theirs would begin, but anyone in our world (including the people who had previously kept the hall) would be able to visit the unlocked areas anytime. If that doesn't work, I'm also a fan of that idea where the winning team gets an item that lets them go to the PvE area anytime.

Nash · Apr 19, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Just scrap it altogether, please... It's a dumb system, and instead of trying to make it work, just remove it.

IxChel · Apr 19, 2005, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Just scrap it altogether, please... It's a dumb system, and instead of trying to make it work, just remove it.

Agreed.

The broader theme here is "forcing" people to do PvP. For example, in pre-searing, when you enter the army, you are thrown into PvP arena. For someone new this is quite an unwelcome shock. I also noticed a problem with particular people quitting right before they won, presumably so they could do it again?

It would be better to have a 1v1 "quest" before being allowed to join. This would get new people who are trying the game an idea of how it works. In these sorts of quests you should get two outcomes: (a) you lose, and have to do the quest again, (b) you win, and are no longer allowed to run the quest again. What you don't want is "hording" where someone who is very very good at PvP continually running against people who are mostly PvE people. If a PvE person wants to play serious hard-core PvPers, they will of their own free will.

Manderlock · Apr 19, 2005, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

Agreed.

The broader theme here is "forcing" people to do PvP. For example, in pre-searing, when you enter the army, you are thrown into PvP arena. For someone new this is quite an unwelcome shock. I also noticed a problem with particular people quitting right before they won, presumably so they could do it again?

It would be better to have a 1v1 "quest" before being allowed to join. This would get new people who are trying the game an idea of how it works. In these sorts of quests you should get two outcomes: (a) you lose, and have to do the quest again, (b) you win, and are no longer allowed to run the quest again. What you don't want is "hording" where someone who is very very good at PvP continually running against people who are mostly PvE people. If a PvE person wants to play serious hard-core PvPers, they will of their own free will.

When you enter the army the game isnt *forcing* you to do anything. If you dont want to fight just stand there, it dosent matter if you win or lose you still progres in the story.

Lamaros · Apr 19, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Just scrap it altogether, please... It's a dumb system, and instead of trying to make it work, just remove it.

The idea of WaW is good because it encourages competition and attempts to build community between the various players of GuildWars. However, the current implementation is horrible and needs to be scrapped.

The bits that are not are well documented and nearly universaly agreed (breaks up the population into artifical 'shards', encourages racism, etc), but the idea that the team that holds the hall gets some kind of reward or recognition is a good thing, it gives people something to aim for and something to compete over. I think things like this that have some impact on the large majority of the server population are good for community building, making the game feel less like "diablo with towns and decent pvp".

The ingame community features Guild Warrs currently offers are so slim right now that I'm not going to say get rid the one idea that does seem to do something in that regard, even if it is currently doing it the wrong way.

A suggestion:

Make Guilds sign up to game 'Kingdoms'. Keep records of the numbers of times each Guild and Kingdom wins the hall in a ladder. Maybe even make the leadings guild in each Kingdom get some kind of recognition from that, to encourage even competition between the Kingdoms and have a superficial bonus tied with the current 'ruling' Kingdom.
I think this would be a way to encourage in-game competition and community whlie losing the problems of 'real world' associacions.

The 'ladder' could be handled in a few ways:

a) Reset every x days, where the winners over the previus x day hold it for the next period of competition
b) A rolling 5 day ladder where the ladder is updated after every win
or,
c) etc.

Personaly I prefer b.

As for rewards: Perhaps the Kingdom that currently tops the ladder gets titles for the period that they hold it, according to their guild rank within the Kingdom:

0st: Kings and Queens
1-2: Prince and Princesses
3-5: Dukes and Duchesses
6-10: Lords and Ladies
10-20: Sirs and Dames
20-50: etc and etc
50+: citizens

Or you might make it tiered by the number of HoH wins they have. Where a guild is titled by % of the total Kingdom wins they took themsleves:

0st: Kings and Queens (25%+)
1st: Prince and Princesses (14-25%+)
2nd: Dukes and Duchesses (9-14%)
3rd: Lords and Ladies (5-9%)
4th: Sirs and Dames (2-5%)
5th: etc and etc (0-2%)
6th: citizens (0%)

This is moving it towards intergrating it with Fame, I suppose. Perhaps the fame count could work in a way that unguilded individuals would also be participate in this system (even though they are less likely to win Tombs as much)

The best thing about something like this, as opposed to WaW as it stands, is that if you don't like it, you can IGNORE IT.

Quote:

Once a team wins the HoH, they all get a "WaW key" that they can use to gain access to the secret area once they have lost the HoH.

This is just silly. It was said at the time and I'll repeat it now. Making PvE unlocked by PvP is just stupid. Making PvEers dependant on PvPers to unlock content aimed at them is stupid. Making PvEers forced to PvP to unlock PvE would be even worse.

The 'unlocking' side of the WaW concept should be sepperated from Tombs. It would make sense for the unlocking to be tied in with PvE missions or quests. You might even make it so that whenever a guild managed to unlock a new PvE area then they cause a World Alert in the same way that winners of the Hall do, giving those who don't PvP as much a chance for their own server recognition. I'm sure other things can also be thought of to make the PvEers feel just as intergrated as those who PvP.

The problem is that ArenaNet has gone so far down the path with WaW that they are loath to give up, and are trying hard to make a flawed idea work rather that address the rather obvious shortcommings.

Discuss.

IxChel · Apr 19, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

When you enter the army the game isnt *forcing* you to do anything. If you dont want to fight just stand there, it dosent matter if you win or lose you still progres in the story.

That is not my point. My point is that the "enter the army" game was neither expected nor voluntary.

I was suggesting that making it a quest (perhaps optional with an XP or gold reward) would be more effective. I was also recommending that new players be allowed to do it several times so they can improve. Further, I was suggesting that people who win should move on so they don't sit around owning newbies all day. Perhaps the quest should ask for you to win 3-5 matches (and after that you're not allowed to start the quest again).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

sorry if spelling aint right, im dyslexic leave me alone

Lots of people are dyslexic (including me). View it as a challenge and practice. Corrections by others can make you better, don't shun them -- act on them.