Curse

Dreamsmith · May 05, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Shhh, we don't want the whiners to learn about the more powerful variety

Uh yeah! I meant, like, theoretically, if it was actually possible to make a W/Mo that way, it'd be a really great character. Too bad you couldn't do that...

Heheh heheh :sweat drop:

Cordub · May 05, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

war/monk i dont fell is overpowered in combat that is the first person i run to. With my Life steals reagans and reagan/life steels and then my life % reducing attacks i bring them down fast they uselly only get one heal. In all i really have no problem with any other ??/M combo. Its The Me combos that can screw me

1am · May 05, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I don't think monk is overpowered. I think non-monk healing spells are underpowered. In low levels, I can heal myself pretty easily with the healing spells within my given profession. However, those spells do not scale well enough, in terms of time/energy as well as power, to make them useful later in the game. The later game requires a monk to heal fast enough to keep members alive.

The requirement of monks for health managment is really my only beef with the game. I can understand the idea: condition removal, hex removal, and healing other teammates (not only yourself), however it should be possible for a team to fight without a monk if they all know how to keep themselves alive. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem possible.

Examples that would help:
Healing Signet: takes 2x damage while using. Why not make it 1-2s recharge? Why 5?

Life Syphon(vampiric): Make it suck more than 3 bars. Or make it suck 3 bars, but I get 5. Same with the vampirics, either allow more healing, or offset healing (You lose 80 health, I get 100)

Energy Tap: Either make it heal more, or make it recharge faster (I like the heal more myself)

Those are the only professions I've spent enough time playing to comment on.

I think this would help both PvE and PvP, since it would broaden the strategies used away from "Kill the monk" and "Hide the monk"

Manderlock · May 05, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

My War/Necro build can and does pwn any W/M that trys to step up.

Skizzle the Curado · May 05, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

I take pride in getting lots of compliments for my healing skills. After every big battle I usually get a "monk, your awsome" or a "go monk!!". I;m a M/Ra to be specific, but I use none of the ranger skills. There are few good monks apparently, hopefully someday more people will know how to use the monk skills.

P.S. knowing when and how to use monk skills takes a lot of practice so go easy on new monks.

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 02:32 AM // 02:32

If the w/mo is overpowered why do they die as much as any other class?

Their not bad builds, I'm not saying that. But a W/Mo has different flaws. You have to beat a W/Mo using a stragety for them just like you need a strategy to take out a Mo/Me or any other combo.

Only big difference is it takes more than just hacking at one to stop em. They seems overpowered because their usage is a lot more obvious than a lot of others, so their just easy to get the hang of at first.

Typhoon · May 06, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I think the problem with monks is that it's extremely difficult to shut one down. Being primarily a Ranger who has specced both Elementalist and Mesmer as secondary, some of their powerful heals are near impossible to stop or interrupt. If you can't stop these powerful heals, a Monk can literally tank the damage of an entire group of people, even those which are damage focused.

It can take much of a team's focus to eliminate one enemy Monk. But what if there are two Monks, or more? Can a group of 4 or 6 with one monk take on an opposing group with two monks and win? How long will it take just to kill one monk, and at what cost? With the current balance, it feels like a group does not need to contribute anything in order to protect their valued healer, because monks have an huge amount of survivability on their own. Why help the healer that helps you, when he does an incredible job of helping himself?

A healer doesn't do much damage, but damage does not always make up a character's offensive. A monk's offensive is healing his group, because longer-living damage dealers means more group DPS. If you ask me, that is a very strong offensive to have, because a DPS build does zero DPS when they are dead or retreating with low health.

Monks may not have much in direct-damage, but considering the strong offensive and defensive capability of their spells, it would be tough to argue that any other class can contribute as much to a group than the monk.

Edit: I'm not talking about W/Mo, but primary monk builds in general. W/Mo will always die without support, and the only reason they last so long in PvP is because they are usually the last targets called.

Brett Kuntz · May 06, 2005, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Not all classes or skills can shut down a monk. No class or character is an end-all to be all psycho killer. You'll just have to live with the fact your character isn't going to be able to scratch some other peoples characters. It's better if you really concentrate on the classes you can take down rather then can't.

Rotgut The Unholy · May 06, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

No it isn't. It's easy to use and reliable, so the margin of error is smaller. It isn't overpowered in any way. Warrior/Monks lose out on damage dealing in favor of healing, but their healing abilities are limited compared to that of a pure monk. The single good Monk can support a few characters at a time, while the Wa/Mo can only care for himself pretty much. In low level PUG setup the Wa/Mo will do well because the tactics are weak, there are no overall strategies and being independent is useful. In higher level, organised PvP the Wa/Mo are not overpowered.

In other words, you play one.

Lazarous · May 06, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Monks seem powerful right now because of the limited enchantment removal options available in-game. Orison of Healing isn't overpowered. Stacking Mark of protection with retribution, healing breeze, shield of regeneration and reversal of fortune spammed on top of that to keep the single enchantment removers from hitting the meat seems like it might be a bit overpowered since you only have 2 options to wipe those protections - the ranger nature spirit that abolishes *all* hexes and enchantments and rend enchantments. Also, using rend is a bit like russian roulette - you might try rending some guy with one too many monk enchantments and kill yourself.

I really wouldn't mind seeing a global decrease in cooldown for the enchantment removers of between 5-10 secs.

Laz

Zeroo · May 06, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

my warrior/ele is very strong .. i only have to do immolate-conjure **-frenzy attack-sever-gash and then he is dead

Tormunda · May 06, 2005, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Through Beta this was talked about on many forums and the verdict seemed to be: New players call them overpowered, elite players disagree.

This topic has been done to death in the Beta but with so many new players starting in retail and some press reviews talking about Uber class combo's, I think it needs to be stated once again so that all the new players don't think the classes and unbalanaced.

War/Monk: Easy not Uber!
Is a very stable and self sustaining class. It is very easy to play tactically and involves very little 'thinking out of the box'. Many people will pick it as a Paladin like template and in all computer games it is often classed the 'Easy' setting to play the game in.
For a first time player you cannot go far wrong with this class. Your mistakes are less drastic as you can recover quickly.
In low level arenas and missions you are often with people you do not know and being self sufficient is a great boon. Team work can be minimal and this class can help make up for that.

Ok. Now onto more advanced play:
War/Monks are just a fancy big pet! Hehehe. (Ok maybe a bit of a harsh statement but I wanted to shock slightly then anyway). What I am saying is that they are very predicatable. They have 3 main forms of play:
1) The Bleeder backup res with hvy armour.
2) The knock em down hvy damage backup res with hvy armour.
3) The disrupt backup res with hvy armour.
A pet can do these attacks just as easy and a pure monk can tank-res people far easier than a war/monk.

War/monks do not concern your team as you get more into PvP. Enemy spell casters and pure monks are the major issues you need to deal with. You will soon find the next basic tactic you get going is picking kill orders with your team.
Kill orders are often: Pure Monk - Elementalist/Messer - Nec/Rang - Tanks last.

Team builds:
Lets do a quick example for you: A pure monk can cast better healing spells than any war/monk can do damage. A pure monk can cast these regular and fast.
Pure Monk. + War/? + War/? =
2 Warriors that are better than any 2 war/monks + you have two ? classes to add to the mix. + your Pure monk has a ? class to add.
Suddenly your fighting a War who heals better than a war/monk and drops fire storms on your head. (etc etc)

Simple example but now you start to see that a war/monk is no big deal.
And just to put your minds at rest, my Monk/Ranger eats War/monks for breakfast and often if just 1 war monk is beating on me I will ignore the annoying fly and go kill bigger fish first.

I welcome any debates on this but it has been done to death in the past. Only reason I posted it was to try and get some new players to understand that 'Easy' to play does not mean 'Uber'!

Lord Malikai · May 06, 2005, 08:57 AM // 08:57

War/Elem <--- My thoughts are, if the enemy is dead, there's no need for me to heal. As a War/Elem I run through Riverside and kill Zealots, then head over to the Hill Giant area and kill them too. Solo. In PvP I'm like a madman who has a stick of dynamite in his jacket, runs into the building and then explodes! Boom! The great thing about War/Elem is your usually the last person to get targetted in pvp, while the true Elem/Mesmer/Monks are being targetted, you actually have the time to cast that 4 second meteor shower successfully :P

Sheep · May 06, 2005, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Monks seem powerful right now because of the limited enchantment removal options available in-game. Orison of Healing isn't overpowered. Stacking Mark of protection with retribution, healing breeze, shield of regeneration and reversal of fortune spammed on top of that to keep the single enchantment removers from hitting the meat seems like it might be a bit overpowered since you only have 2 options to wipe those protections - the ranger nature spirit that abolishes *all* hexes and enchantments and rend enchantments. Also, using rend is a bit like russian roulette - you might try rending some guy with one too many monk enchantments and kill yourself.

I really wouldn't mind seeing a global decrease in cooldown for the enchantment removers of between 5-10 secs.

Laz

Or um you could just like change targets?

Deagol · May 06, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Another way to state the same: If I'm going to group with some newbie who are not really sure how to best use skills, nor what tactics are good in teamplay, I'd prefer him to play a W/Mo.

If I'm grouping with an experienced player, and we are not going for a specific team build, I'd prefer him to choose whatever professions he is most comfortable playing.

Tormunda · May 06, 2005, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deagol

Another way to state the same: If I'm going to group with some newbie who are not really sure how to best use skills, nor what tactics are good in teamplay, I'd prefer him to play a W/Mo.

If I'm grouping with an experienced player, and we are not going for a specific team build, I'd prefer him to choose whatever professions he is most comfortable playing.

Completely true.
If your not sure what to play or who your with, your not going to go far wrong by playing your war/monk. - They are the most forgiving classes to play.
Like I said. Easy not Uber. - Easy can sometimes be all it takes to wipe out unorganised opponents, especially if they are playing more complex classes.

JYX · May 06, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

...not if they're elementalists casting 40 damage flares on you once every second and a bit. No, its kinda urgent that you take them down quick. Though a backfire/conjure phantasm in there sorts them out pretty good, I am seeing a grevious shortage of mesmers in this game.

Problem is...all the late game buffs/heals are there. Orison, heal other, healing breeze, reversal of fortune...ok so theres no life bond...but that dosen't help our plight. Whereas in comparison...the early game attacks aren't as complete, where is my Illusionary Weapons/Flurry? Where is my Tiger's Fury/Barrage/Conjure? They get their healing breeze/reversal of fortune...wheres my hot lewt?

we have to delve all the way down to sever artery/gash...plus theres some skills that are accentuated MUCH more than they need to be in early game, I don't see anyone using earth skills, or air, or inspiration...or stance from tactics for that matter. Representation of the late game play by the early game is very much mistaken.

Xellos · May 06, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

That's like asking why does everyone prefer to use potions in Diablo 2. Everyone wants to live longer, the mentality of placing your life at the hands of something out of your control is not easily doable by most, let alone trust it very long. For casual players, they trust themselves and rely more on themselves in PVE and PVP. This leads to /MO, since there is no potions in the game, or any real way to heal yourself effectively without /mo. Some people like War/Rangers think their all neat and all with the troll ungeant, but then they realize speccing wilderness for 1 damn skill is pointless, while /mo allows rez/heal/removals all at the same time, not to mention a enchantment warriors love in pve (mending).

Epinephrine · May 06, 2005, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rotgut The Unholy

In other words, you play one.

LOL! No. I've never played a Warrior Monk. I've played a Monk/Warrior and a Mesmer/Warrior in the betas, and my current characters are a Mo/Me, a Ne/Mo, a Ra/Me and a Mo/Ra.

grimboj · May 06, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40

It sounds the most sensible and stable class, The people who are going to be targetted the most in PvP (and in my experience, PvE) have the most hp and are also the most vital to a team.

I was planning on making one soon and i think its gonna be very powerful.