Curse

RedX · May 13, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I have read both sides of the argument and I see where both sides are comming from. In the end I have to say that the grind is fine as is.

The game is skill over time played. You get a slight advantage if you do the grind BUT you can still win with no problem if you don't and use good strategy. It is in how you fight not what you fight with in this game.

Runes don't make you uber, but they give a SLIGHT advantage. Unlocking runes is a perfect example of a reward for doing the grind. It is NOT something you need but it is enough to feel good about what you EARNED. You don't need runes, but if you want them you have to earn them, which is how it should be. Runes are something extra and if you want them you should have to earn them.

Every RPG has a grind of some sort. If you don't like it play other types of games. The grind in GW is for the most part optional. If you do the grind of course you get a prize of some sort. Thats the whole point of it being there.

Now there is one part of the grind I can see being changed. It doesn't need to be but it would be nice. Getting skills post lvl 20 is nothing but a grind no matter how you go about it as you need SP to buy them with. Perhaps when you change your secondary at lvl 20 you get about 1/3 of the skills already unlocked. That way you have enough to work with and you don't have to do all the extra SP grinding.

Just my 2 cents

sama · May 13, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

My main question still remains though, and that is WHY is it such an emergency to get the skills and runes and everythings else right NOW

for me, it's because pve bores me to tears. well, the first time was all good and fun, but i've ran every mission at least 5+ times because i'm helping my guildmates run missions as well. granted, i don't have too, but I can't gvg w/o them. My guildmates and I only want to do pvp, but we can't and the grind is making some if not most of us starting to lose faith in this game. So we might not even get off the ground...

Epinephrine · May 13, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedX

You get a slight advantage if you do the grind BUT you can still win with no problem if you don't and use good strategy. It is in how you fight not what you fight with in this game.

No, I'm sorry, that side of the argument keeps making the claim that it is only slight. If two people are equally skilled and one has a "slight" edge it isn't equal anymore. That's why there is an objection; because to prevent losing due to a "slight" disadvantage you must PvE like crazy, just to ensure that you are actually getting a fair shake at it.

Statements like these from arenanet

from FAQ, guildwars.com:

Quote:

Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild

from Game Synopsis, guildwars.com:

Quote:

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing...

from interview with RPG Vault:

Quote:

We designed the character system so that the outcome of combat is determined by which player is the most skilled, not by which player spent the most hours building up his character.

from an interview with GameZone.com, Gaile Gray:

Quote:

Q: Please explain how a casual player can compete with the hard-core MMPer who will spend a lot of hours leveling their toon?

Gaile: Our primary design goal with Guild Wars is to create a game that provides meaningful competition. In other words, we are not trying to find arbitrary mechanics to ensure that a casual player has a shot at defeating a hardcore veteran. Instead, we focus on designing the combat mechanics around player skill rather than the number of hours you have invested in the game. A classic strategy game like chess is a good example. If you have been playing and studying for ten years, and I have just read “Chess for Dummies” and decide to challenge you, chances are very low that I will defeat you. But is it possible? Is there a chance that I am just a brilliant player and might find a way to expose a weakness in your play style? You bet. And that's what makes classic strategy games so much fun. It is a level playing field, and the rules don't dictate who wins or loses based on any factor other than the skill of the players.

are what leads people into thinking that it would not have the kind of repetitive farming and hunting for elite skills and so on that are in fact necessary to compete in PvP on a level field. Kudos that they have managed to make it so that a level field is possible, but it still takes too many hours of investment just to get the gear and skills with which to do so.

wasteland · May 13, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

This assumes there is even a slight advantage. So far I have seen no advantage in having the captured skills or farmed for equipment over the ones you get from a straight PvP character. But I'm only one player and this observation could be just the luck of the draw in the fights I've had so far.

However ArenaNet have always stated that this should be true. That the additional skills and crafted equipment give you more options for how you build a character, not that it makes you more powerful. In effect if you want to "collect 'em all" you can but it doesn't give you a straight advantage, just more replay value as you mix and match your builds.

Therefore, if the skills and equipment you gain through grinding does make you more powerful then I agree this needs to be addressed. So a better question to those who have played significantly is this:

If you PvP with a freshly made level 20 character using only the default skills and equipment are you more, less or as successful as your lvl 20 PvE character?

RedX · May 13, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Wasteland you have said that very well. Also I need to clear up the reason I use the word "slight" in my last post was because I don't even really have problems myself beating people with runes.

Runes only give more options to the player who has them. Thats the "advantage" I was talking about. If someone is willing to put forth the extra effort they have a right to the extra options. In no way do runes decide who wins or loses a fight.

Believe it or not there is a large amount of people out there who like the fact that there are things to unlock after lvl 20. What you unlock doesn't make you win, but it is rewarding. Why change the way this system works? If you have one good reason please enlighten me.

And I don't want to hear any grinding excuses as an answer. As I said I have full grasp of the situation at hand. Instead I want to know how a person with runes has such an advantage over a player who doesn't, because as I said I have had no problem beating them. Until I get that my opinion stands.

Epinephrine · May 13, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

It has already been stated that testing has gone on, by the alphas, that indicate that there is an advantage to runes and gear.

If you have beaten folks with such items it just rporves that skill can overcome the discrepancy in some cases, but the fact is that a good player with full gear has a n edge of a player without. Put this way: Since a superior rune of Vigor adds 50 health with no penalty, a player with this rune has an advantage. You cannot argue that 50 more HP is an edge. Minor runes give +1 to an attribute with no disadvantage - theis is clearly a dominating strategy - it is better to have higher skill if no disadvantage is incurred. Hafts and grips and strings on weapons can add advantages without a disadvantage - addingto bleeding time, cripple time, knockdown time etc is an advantage.

Given equal skill, these advantages can lead to a win. This is in contrast to the stated goals I quoted above.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Yes the advantage is noticeable, very noticeable especially if you play Elementalists or Warriors with those items equipped. Even if it wasn't noticeable it actually happens and everyone should have a fair chance of acquiring this stuff.

You lie, rangers need it the most.

Cain · May 13, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

To be quite honest, I've never played PvP.

Yes, I'm aware that certain characters can have a theoretical advantage in specific situations. What I'm asking is, are these theoretical advantages having a significant or even noticable impact on the actual game? In other words, are guild battles dominated exlusively by grinders with non-grinders not even having a chance?

Unfortunately I cannot go into the details of the testing that my guild has done on regular characters vs pimped out characters due to the NDA. However, believe me when I say items do make a difference. If they didn't then we wouldn't be making such a fuss would we?

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 13, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

However, believe me when I say items do make a difference. If they didn't then we wouldn't be making such a fuss would we?

Exactly. I don't know how some people can say with a straight face that runes and Elites don't make a difference. Yet these are the same people who keep saying that not everyone should get these items except only by grinding and grinding meaning that they want to keep their advantage just because they happen to enjoy the mindless tedium.

sk33zl0w · May 13, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Where can i go to farm runes i am lvl 20 and have nly gotten 5 or 6.

Also I now find myself grinding for skill points because i didn't realize that i was not going to be able to easily buy every skill i saw. Now i have 5 skill points left and only about 1 or 2 spells that are crucial to my build. The thing is that i also want to make a PvP monk and i am Mes/monk atm. In order to get the good monk heals i need more skill points which i don't have. THis is one of the few areas of the game that angered me but i guess it is my fault. I am just used to stuff like WoW where i had all my skills at the final lvl.

Are there any other ways for me to get some skill points because i dont want to raise a monk to lvl 20 just for the skills i cant get right now

Mimu · May 14, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Since you get experience from PvP..why don't you just use an rp character at the arena (or wherever) for a while?

Eventually you will gain new skill points so that you can unlock new skills for your character without the 'grind'.

Cain · May 14, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimu

Since you get experience from PvP..why don't you just use an rp character at the arena (or wherever) for a while?

Eventually you will gain new skill points so that you can unlock new skills for your character without the 'grind'.

You only get ~12 XP a kill in PvP (well if you're level 20 and your target is level 20). It's gonna take a long time to level that way. Plus you can't get runes in PvP.

RedX · May 14, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

It has already been stated that testing has gone on, by the alphas, that indicate that there is an advantage to runes and gear.

If you have beaten folks with such items it just rporves that skill can overcome the discrepancy in some cases, but the fact is that a good player with full gear has a n edge of a player without. Put this way: Since a superior rune of Vigor adds 50 health with no penalty, a player with this rune has an advantage. You cannot argue that 50 more HP is an edge. Minor runes give +1 to an attribute with no disadvantage - theis is clearly a dominating strategy - it is better to have higher skill if no disadvantage is incurred. Hafts and grips and strings on weapons can add advantages without a disadvantage - addingto bleeding time, cripple time, knockdown time etc is an advantage.

Given equal skill, these advantages can lead to a win. This is in contrast to the stated goals I quoted above.

Very good. I see why people can get upset about this one, but only in certain cases. I do have a suggestion slightly similar to my SP suggestion I made earlier in this thread and here it is:

Make it so all superior runes can be unlocked through a lvl 20 quest reward. This way no one gets any major advantages. However keep the minor runes the way they are. This way there is extra stuff to unlock and it solves the unbalance between skill and time played.

Sound good?

BlaineTog · May 14, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

I've spent 20 hours farming for runes and I'm still missing half of what I need. That my friend is grind. Over 100 hours and I'm still not completely ready for PvP. Pretty sad if you ask me.

You're ready for PvP even if you don't have every rune.
I do believe that the difficultly you are having finding runes is supposed to be a dterrant to farming; ie it's so hard to farm that you shouldn't do it.

spiritofcat · May 14, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Okay. I've read a lot of arguments on both sides of this grind issue and I'd like to try and summarise what I understand of it.
There are some players who want to play PvP exclusively. These players don't like PvE at all and want to have a rich and interesting game experience in PvP. They feel that the PvP template characters, and the characters that can be built without having unlocked anything are lacking and that it is unfair and tedious for them to have to play the PvE side of things, just to unlock the rest of the content for PvP.
Short of an Unlock All button there is no way to satisfy this type of person. Any amount of grind will seem unreasonable to them, and rightly so when so much of the media about this game gives the impression that you can play a rich and interesting PvP game without playing PvE.

Players who don't mind playing the PvE to unlock things are annoyed because they are trying to unlock certain things to be able to create certain PvP builds.
With the way the game is currently structured, this is the wrong way to go about it and will indeed only lead to frustration.
What the game encourages, by the current gameplay dynamic, is for players to discover new builds, and strategies based on the things that they have found/unlocked in their PvE game, rather than trying to unlock the skills and items for some pre-conceived build.

I fear I may be rambling a bit but hopefully I'm making some sense here.

Now, in terms of trying to find a resolution to this argument, let me ask a question.
What objection does anyone here have against the "Unlock All" button for PvP?
As far as I can tell it would do no harm to anyone, other than injuring the pride of players who have already endured the grind to gain all those hard to get things.
The only reason I can think of that ArenaNet would have for not including such a feature is that it would allow players who only want to play PvP to do exactly that, without having to suffer through playing a campaign of mission and quests that they have no interest in.
I fail to see why ArenaNet would want to reduce the enjoyment for some proportion of their audience, when not doing so would have no negative impact on any other players.

Just for your information, I haven't played any PvP yet, and don't really plan to play much in the future. I'm not one of the PvP players I have been speaking of, but I'm trying to understand their point of view.

May 14, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

The unlock all skills button makes it so that people who go through PvE feel that they arent being rewarded for their time-and rightly so.

Under no circumstances should PvP players get all skills off the bat. What most of us are asking for is a reduction in the grind and another option for skill acquisition through PvP. There is no incentive to PvP and you dont even have to PvP in Guild Wars-yet the game was built on PvP. The devs know there is a grind issue and so do the alpha testers and everyone else willing to look at the issue OBJECTIVELY. Once you leave personal bias out the door and start using numbers to justify your claims it all makes sense.

spiritofcat · May 14, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

The unlock all skills button makes it so that people who go through PvE feel that they arent being rewarded for their time-and rightly so.

Is the point of PvE then only to gain rewards to use in PvP?
To me, the reward of playing PvE is the achievements in PvE. I'm not saying that the Unlock All button should apply to PvE characters.
If someone is playing PvE to unlock things for PvP, then I imagine that an Unlock All button would make them happier, since they wouldn't have to 'grind' for the skills they want. And if they only wanted to play with the skills they had unlocked in PvE they could manually restrict themselves to those skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Under no circumstances should PvP players get all skills off the bat.

Why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

What most of us are asking for is a reduction in the grind and another option for skill acquisition through PvP. There is no incentive to PvP and you dont even have to PvP in Guild Wars-yet the game was built on PvP.

I agree that there should be some incentive for PvP, and some way to gain skills without having to play in PvE.
However, I don't think that players should be forced to play PvP either if that's what you're implying in the end of that sentance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

The devs know there is a grind issue and so do the alpha testers and everyone else willing to look at the issue OBJECTIVELY. Once you leave personal bias out the door and start using numbers to justify your claims it all makes sense.

Is that aimed at me or just a general comment? I thought I was being fairly objective. I don't know what numbers could be of use in my claims, other than the number of players who want to play PvP without any PvE.

May 14, 2005, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiritofcat

Is the point of PvE then only to gain rewards to use in PvP?
To me, the reward of playing PvE is the achievements in PvE. I'm not saying that the Unlock All button should apply to PvE characters.
If someone is playing PvE to unlock things for PvP, then I imagine that an Unlock All button would make them happier, since they wouldn't have to 'grind' for the skills they want. And if they only wanted to play with the skills they had unlocked in PvE they could manually restrict themselves to those skills.

The point of PvE is imo to complete the game, gain rewards and learn the basics of Guild Wars combat. The game fails at the last one miserably, but getting rewards and advancing the storyline are the main reasons I play PvE.

I would like an UAS button. But I know it has a big impact on PvE and ruins the reward system and also nerfs any possible plans for skill charms to be brought back. It also kind of kills the dynamic feel of acquiring skills

Quote:

Why not?

Answered that above. I should also state that while this would put everyone on almost equal footing we should think about the PvE players also

Quote:

I agree that there should be some incentive for PvP, and some way to gain skills without having to play in PvE.
However, I don't think that players should be forced to play PvP either if that's what you're implying in the end of that sentance.

Actually I dont want people to be forced to PvP either, I want the middle ground of having options of both. Originally I thought the game would include PvP within the PvE missions but it didn't. Then to make it worse Anet didnt respond to people's claims of the GvG ladder being useless and Tombs following the same path.

Quote:

Is that aimed at me or just a general comment? I thought I was being fairly objective. I don't know what numbers could be of use in my claims, other than the number of players who want to play PvP without any PvE.

General comment and actually had nothing to do with your post

I just missed most of the recent stuff and instead of quoting everything I just wanted to put that out there.

The numbers are doing things like /age and counting what you've unlocked. Do it for various characters and start comparing. Then compare those to other people's stuff(most likely in your guild) and you'll find some intriguing data about skill and item availibility.

Inacurate · May 14, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

I read the first page, skipped the next three. :P Doing good so far.

Am going to make a simple point I have seen made before, by both sides of the fence, and both sides takes the paragraph and uses it out of context to further their statement.

Located on the main GuildWars website, under Game Info > Game Synopsis it reads, and I will bold the important parts:

Built for Competition

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

In addition to: Not only can you play PvE and BUILD-UP your character by doing Quests and Missions, but..

You can choose: To create a PvP character that when used with,

Player Skill and teamwork: can be just as effecitve and competitive, though without the "built up" skills and you still don't need to

spend hundreds of hours leveling up your chatacter to compete.

I think that about sums it up. It very cleary states that there will be SOME grind, but you don't HAVE to do it to compete. People only WANT to because they think they NEED certain runes / items / skill, which is in fact NOT the case.

And to anyone who says "But to compete against other people who have these items / skill / runes, I NEED them too" you are kidding yourself, I mean really, and this is directed at no one in particular, but those type of people are going to most likely be in a Guild yes? Probably doing Guild Battles, chances are if THEY are that HARDCORE to get said items, you won't be playing them anyways I would imagine.

Inac

Executioner · May 14, 2005, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Im not going to cover all the grind points, such as kill the same creatures in the same locations over and over, my gripe is more about skill points, skills and Runes.

Ive taken a step back from Pvp simply because i want to use my Pve in Pvp..

Well i dont like the grind and yes not only is it grind but for runes its "chance grind" i dont want to play a necromancer or elementalist yet, maybe later thou, so why am i unlocking these skills while using a warrior/monk.

Ok so the lvl counter stops at 20, you still need more exp to unlock points for the skills (hey i want all the skills for my character), not to bad when in fissure or Underworld you can get 10000 exp for quest, hmm have to do that 50+ times at 2 hours a go, if ive got a good group or even find one, hmm sounds like a grind to me.

Now whats this, i need to find bosses to get the elite skills, your kidding me right, that means i have to redo stuff that took hours to do and hours to find groups to do it with.

Ok so i need to unlock the runes i need for that equal edge againts the oppsition in PvP, i know i can get a chance to get an item to unlock something in fissure if i complete some quests, i get 2 shots at a 1 in 8 chance of getting an item to unlock, then i have to pray its a rune i need, then i have to pray that its not a rune desguised as a load of tanned hides

Ok so there alot of grind to find the right runes.. well ive played alot so im pritty flush for plat.. hey ill try to buy them.. what i hear them say " naa, gold is getting pointless now", i would trade you this item for an item i need..

back to the grind.

Heh to be serious it seems like theres more grind here than in previous mmorpgs ive played and at least in them, i knew from spoilers what i would/could be getting for grinding/creature camping, because of this its a bit slim on the equality of Pvp.

Please in Fissure and the underworld make the quest bosses a bit harder and give out an item from the chest to everyone in the party !

Anyways made my points, back to my grind stone, all i want to do is finish this character off, so i can play Pvp.