Curse

Luggage · May 17, 2005, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MickeyC

while i can’t argue that there is some need for a grind and that the “unlock all skills” button from the betas may be a little ludicrous, i do believe firmly that something must be done to reduce the grind from its current state; especially since the reduction of rare drops they implemented last patch. it now takes a solid three hours to get a single rare item, which is absolutely absurd.

Yet some people will not be happy untill they have the "unlock all X" back. (Something I belive the dev.s have said is not going to happen, don't quote me tho.)

Skills, or rahter, Elites:
Current---some solution---Remove Random from Bosses---some solution---Unlock All

Removing the random spawn function of bosses would help a lot I feel, while not removing the capturing component totally from the game.

On the other hand it would even more make "skill" = "reading boss lists on forums"

Drops, or rather, Major Runes:
Current---some solution---Increase Drops---some solution---Unlock Some, Unlock All

As for Item and Rune drops, I really don't see a good solution except upping drop rates and perhaps getting drops in PVP.

Perhaps like with skills making some bosses drop non-randomized items?
Would questing or hunting a boss become less grindy if you know you only have to finnish it once?

Would "beating the story-line = unlock all for these two professions" be acceptable?

How about trying to post some resonable solutions?

ThundrGod · May 17, 2005, 11:26 AM // 11:26

I've been following this debate for some time as my main char is level 16 and if I quit playing the others he will be level 20 soon and I will be looking for a good pvp guild to join because by that time I will probably lose interest in the pve portion of the game. It concerns me because I really don't relish the thought of doing the same quests over and over again with alternate characters to have all the skills, items and upgrades available to fully enjoy the pvp aspect of the game, much less hunting down obscure monsters and killing them over and over again to have access to all the elite skills. One of the reasons I bought this game was because of all the hype about skill vs. time spent as I work excessive hours and don't get to play as much as I'd like.
Everyone dismisses the "unlock all" button out of hand because it somehow "cheapens" someone else's experience. I can't see how this is the case. Everyone here paid for a copy of the game in the hopes of enjoying it. If someone enjoys using the CD as a coaster , by all means use it as a coaster. If someone else enjoys spending 1000 hours hunting down elite skills, then have at it. If someone else wants to push a button and watch the entire game play itself out then why not put it in the game? When you talk about forcing people into a set routine to do the things they want in the game your really saying limit someone else's enjoyment of the game (who paid the same price as you) because you feel "cheated". As long as everyone has the same options available to them no one can claim to be cheated. There have been several ideas put forward to allow those so inclined to skip the pve portion of the game and still have full access to the pvp portion. Guild Wars is a great game BECAUSE it offers enjoyment to many different types of gamer, any improvements that give MORE options just make it even better.

Claymore · May 17, 2005, 11:48 AM // 11:48

If PVP was meant to be skill based and not who can spend the most time unlock skills, then level the playing field. One standard character for each class, nothing can be added, nothing taken away. Or add this as a second "class" of competition, sort of a standard and unlimited class, standard template char for competition or a completely unlock char's for the unlimited class.

Mountain Man · May 17, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

it simply seems that GRIND has different meanings to different people.

Exactly. To turn an old phrase, one person's grind is another person's gameplay.

Mountain Man · May 17, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eternal [ZEN]

Let's say you enjoy the PvP very much and you hate the PvE even more, what do you do?

You play another game since Guild Wars is obviously not for you.

Demetrious · May 17, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

How about this... if you hit the unlock all button then you only fight other players with the unlock all option and there is no global rank/fame/xp. Basically two sets of fame/rank - one for unlock anything arena battles and the other for PVE players and PvPer who don't hit the magic give all button.

My view is that ArenaNet did something pretty impressive when they allowed you to pull up a lv 20 character out of the box. I think the current situation is a pretty reasonable compromise, but that is just my opinion. I do think there are other options but none will please everyone IF you keep the "one world" basic premise.

Ilyusai · May 17, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

The reason why there are people complaining is because during beta the game was toted as skill over time spent. If you want to compare this to something compare it to D2 meets pokemon but don't compare it to a mmorpg.

I played in all the weekend beta events myself.

Sure there are some changes since Guild Wars went live and I am more than happy with them because I have experienced some horrible time sinks in other games (which prompty made me leave those games, Trials of Atlantis expansion / Scars of Velious expansion). Comparative to what is out there Guild Wars has the easiest leveling (instant travel, hencmen, every class can solo) with minimal time spent (48-72 hours to complete all missions with gaining a good amount of elite skills) when it comes to time spent building up your character.

Either your going to enjoy the game and the hoops (i.e. grind) you have to jump through to get what you want out of it or simply just don't play the game.

Manderlock · May 17, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Grind is such a fickel word. What is grind to you may not be grind to someone else.

I happen to think that this game has minimized the grind exceptionally. Anyone that has played just about ANY of the big time MMOs will agree.

No-grind dose not = easy.

I just cant see how people can be complaining about grind in GW. This game takes SOOOO much more skill than others of the same type can claim.

*Sigh* I grow tired of constantly defending my point of view on this.

To me there is no grind in this game.

Davey · May 17, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

Grind is such a fickel word. What is grind to you may not be grind to someone else.

I happen to think that this game has minimized the grind exceptionally. Anyone that has played just about ANY of the big time MMOs will agree.

No-grind dose not = easy.

I just cant see how people can be complaining about grind in GW. This game takes SOOOO much more skill than others of the same type can claim.

*Sigh* I grow tired of constantly defending my point of view on this.

To me there is no grind in this game.

Thank you... BTW how do people imagine games without 'grind'? If there would be even less 'grind' then there's in GW then you would end up with 1 boss and 25 missions equal 25 bosses to kill in total, which would make the game about an hour worth of playing. Also, if they would still want to implant the various landscapes then you would be walking around 50 minutes and killing 1 minute and then walk around 50 minutes again to complete a mission. Furthermore, this is an extreme look on the situation and it's just an example so please don't counter this (pretending to be smart) by saying; They could make it 2 bosses a mission and you'll have 2 hours worth of playing omg...

BTW This would be considered 'grind' by some people who keep arguing about it; OMG 2 bosses a mission?! Why not just 1?! '-.-

Loviatar · May 17, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38

[QUOTE=Manderlock]Grind is such a fickel word. What is grind to you may not be grind to someone else.
QUOTE]

another word that is being thrown around with gay abandon is *COMPETITIVE*

Anet meaning of *competitive* is that a 50 hour player has an honest CHANCE against a 500 hour person

not that good a chance admittedly but still a genuine chance

pick your favorite personal experience game (wow, ff. etc) and tell me if that 50 hour player has any chance against the 500 hour player

or if it will simply be an execution

Manderlock · May 17, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

Grind is such a fickel word. What is grind to you may not be grind to someone else.
QUOTE]

another word that is being thrown around with gay abandon is *COMPETITIVE*

Anet meaning of *competitive* is that a 50 hour player has an honest CHANCE against a 500 hour person

not that good a chance admittedly but still a genuine chance

pick your favorite personal experience game (wow, ff. etc) and tell me if that 50 hour player has any chance against the 500 hour player

or if it will simply be an execution

*shivers as he thinks of WoW*

Ill get the chopping block ready me lord.

Striker Shardale · May 17, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

No, it is not all skill but a good chunk of it can be seen as skill/knowledge. If you are used to MMORPGs, strategical games or just plain a good team player then GW should be atleast somewhat easy. I do believe I have spent all together about 136 playing GW, that includes bringing Striker up to lvl 20, bringing 5 other characters up to about lvl 10, and the beta weekends that usually costed me many hours of sleep and I had gotten to lvl 15 on the beta as well. The whole point is, it all depends on what you are used to. I have been playing MMORPGs on and off for the past 5 or 6 years so I am somewhat used to this, and it is possibly the closest to fair PvP I have ever seen.

Kordesh · May 17, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

This is by far the most inappropriate use of the word "grind" ever. GW is a not a grind. If you think it is, feel free to play a MMORPG, then come back. You don't need all the skills to be effective. You don't need all the elite skills. The elite skills are incentive to actually play through the storyline at least once. They're a little extra bonus, and most of the time they aren't very helpful anyway. I've been PvPing, have almost all my skills unlocked, and I have most of the missions done. Oh, and BTW, I do believe if you do want to have everything handed to you on a diamond encrusted golden platter, just change your damn secondary class to whatever it is you want to play and then go to the final skill trainer. He should have all the abilities that aren't elite available. Don't have enough skill points? Well, either PVP the experience to get more, or actually do one or two quests to get them, of course, the quests might be fatal to you guys, so maybe you should just stick with the EXP grind...

Jackathan · May 17, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Grind is doing drake runs 20 times in a row. Practice is something completely different from grind, dont confuse the two.

B@!T · May 17, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I think Grind is being confused with "level your character up." There is no grind on this game, sure you kill monsters over and over again, but not because you sit there and wait for them to respawn like in a REAL grind - but because you travel places and they attack you, or because you cannot find somebody to trade you a certain drop. Geeze, this game takes so very little time to level your character up, yet people are still complaining about it... I guess everybody now that the playing field ALREADY IS LEVEL that people are trying to find excuses as to why they cannot win in PVP.

piercehead · May 17, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I for one (as a general PvE-er) would be happy with at least one place that is a true level playing field.
If it was PvP teams w/unlock all ONLY for one area, normal PvE teams ONLY for another.

I wouldn't have a problem with PvE having all skills unlocked ONLY in the arena to balance with unlocked PvP-ers, as someone else mentioned...

B@!T · May 17, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Don't you see, the balance has already been struck.

They can create characters already level 20, but off default templates and underequipped. A fully equipped non level 20 could not only hold his own against it, but would probably beat it down - unless the lower level lacked strategy, and the 20 used it well.

Everything has already been thought of. The GWs people probably considered every single thing we are coming up with, and, in the end, determined that this was the best possible route to go... and I agree with them. The current system heavily rewards strategy, rewards doing the PvE, and allows PvP fans to not wait to play. The only thing the game does not do, as I mentioned before, is leave excuses for the losing team.

Akshara · May 18, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

You could easily have a good group of friends in a guild complete all the missions while getting the majority of the skills you need for PvP in under 48-72 hours per character if you know what your doing.

Two to three playing days per maxed (level and the best PvP based spells) character...

48 to 72 hours per character... two to three playing days...

While I recognize there are hardcore gamers to whom this seems entirely reasonable, as I was one myself many moons ago, to the rest of us who have to balance and manage our available time between work, family and normal day to day responsibilites, spending 72 hours ingame over three days is simply inconceivable and/or impossible.

The three biggest reasons many bought this game are: 1) no monthly fee; 2) multiplayer PvP game styles; and 3) that the level cap and focus on skill vs. time played would make the game accessible to those with limited time. This third one, however much thought and effort went toward accomplishing that, has been a genuine letdown. That's not bitching or whining... it's just a simple truth.

If one plays for 8 hours a week, which is a generous amount of time to give to any entertainment on a weekly basis, and considers that they either don't know what they're doing, or simply goes through much slower than the hardcore gamer who can do it all in three days, it could take that person three months or longer of dedicated PvE time to reach lvl 20 and unlock the skills for two professions with one character.

Three months... just to PvP with a single custom character competitively. The game has only been out for two weeks, so let's get some perspective on this. We're talking another ten weeks or longer just to begin. Ooookaaayy...

Regardless of what anyone says, that's a little surprising and disheartening to the one who reads the promo and reviews, buys the game and loads it up to PvP with their Ele/Mo or Mo/Wa build that they've designed in anticipation of online competition. Three months or longer to even begin playing PvP competitively, let alone learning the nuances and dynamics of the game styles themselves.

I'm going through PvE and enjoying it just fine, and at my own pace. My hope and excitement upon buying this game was to play Capture the Flag and King of the Hill with other good players, since those are multiplayer game styles I enjoy immensely, along with the ocassional PvE RP experience. And sometime around late August or September, I'll get to do that.

So you all can say whatever you want. If one can't hear what we're saying, can't respect our feelings nor recognize how this situation might be somewhat disappointing to many of us, then so be it. I doubt that the majority of those who are against opening PvP up would voluntarily wait another ten to twelve weeks before playing their characters, and just noodle around in PvE in the meantime.

A little community support, empathy and encouragement could go a long way toward helping the situation whether it changes or not, at least in making the rest of us feel welcomed and inspired to keep moving forward toward eventual PvP participation. Right now it kinda feels like the majority would be completely happy if all of us more casual players never participated in PvP at all, and just played something else. That's what it sounds like anyway.

PieXags · May 18, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Not to be a dick, but if you only play 8 hours a week you're still problably going to lose to someone who's been playing for 100 hours a week despite whether or not they have the superior runes and all their skills unlocked, I mean they've had more experience and more time to practice.

They could problably beat you with a stock character only playing that often, I mean lets say this:

A guy plays a stock PvP character very frequently and becomes very familiar with him over the hundreds of hours he's played in the two weeks the game has been out.

You created a stock character at the same time, but only played 8 hours a week.

...you're problably going to lose anyway man. Whether they spent the time farming or practicing PvP, they've still had more experience and problably better skill anyways. If you only play 8 hours a week you're not going to have a lot of time to master PvP or farm, in that case I'd just play AS a casual gamer. Hardcore PvPers are really the only ones needed to be concerned with winning in the hall of heroes or in some big competitions. Casual people (and I know many who play PvP only), well they just seem to like to...do just that, play casually. Win, lose, even match, screwed up match, whatever 'eh? They can get a bit tweaked from time to time, but so can people who farm.

Akshara · May 18, 2005, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Not to be a dick, but if you only play 8 hours a week you're still problably going to lose to someone who's been playing for 100 hours a week despite whether or not they have the superior runes and all their skills unlocked, I mean they've had more experience and more time to practice.

That's not necessarily the case. I've participated in competitive CTF with many teams over the years (albeit mostly FPS), and am very familiar with the dynamics of multiplayer team games. Once the initial learning curve is taken care of, it's easy for one to jump in for 4 to 10 hours a week and be a strong asset to a team. I've been playing computer games regularly for so long now (over 25 years), none of this is very difficult and even GW comes as second nature.

Quote:

Casual people (and I know many who play PvP only), well they just seem to like to...do just that, play casually. Win, lose, even match, screwed up match, whatever 'eh?

Sorry, but I feel that this is a common stereotype regarding older gamers who have less time to devote to it. We do play to win, and we do it well.

You used a 1v1 example, and in such a case you may be right. Yet if in your example I could design my own build, it's quite possible that my general gaming experience would win out. But this is not about a 1v1 experience, or about my character being better than yours. It's about team strategy and finding the best role for ourselves within that strategy.

When I said 8 hours a week, that was actual ingame hours not considering offline discussions, strategies, forum researches, guild meetings, etc. There are many older players who are "casual" in that they can't invest unlimited hours a week into playing, but that doesn't mean their gameplay itself is casual or offhanded. These are often very good players that any team or guild would be fortunate to have on their side.

Edit: Fwiw, I bought the game on Apr. 29th, and based on the /age settings between my three characters, and adding in the initial tests that were deleted, have already logged well over 60 hours ingame (took some time off at work to do this). The hope was to get through the initial learning curve, then drop back to a more reasonable amount of time per week. None of my characters are even close to lvl 20 or to having unlocked nearly enough for PvP'ing with a custom build. Of that 60+ hours, most of it has been in PvE developing characters, and I've barely scratched the surface when it comes to real team based PvP... still a lot of fun, but not what I expected at all.