Curse

Zeppelin · May 26, 2005, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

And just where is this stereotyping I am supposed to be doing?

Blaming the "PvE fanboys" as a whole by refusing to sell/trade your sigils in protest(for something that the majority of PvE players had nothing to do with).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Hardly a small fraction, but whatever. I respect PvEers who don't mind unlocks for PvP. They are not part of the problem.

See man, this is where I get disappointed, because we're both seemingly wanting the same thing. Yet, you seem to hold a grudge against PvEers for, as you stated, something that isn't our fault in the first place. If you want to protest, then why take it out on the PvEers? I also do believe that it is a small fraction, only it may seem like more because people tend to come out of the woodwork to complain about something they don't like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Yes, I am "pissed" (hardly the word I'd use) by the amount of grind, I started playing GW to avoid grind. In E3 you couldn't even level up, and it was great.

Rightfully so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Did I say it was?

You did blame it on the PvE fanboys' narrowmindedness as a whole, which affects me I guess, being that I play mostly PvE and am in this category of not having a sigil. Your protest affects PvE players more than ANet, so essentially we're being 'punished' for the grind ANet puts on PvPers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Blame ArenaNet for adding grind. It doesn't have anything to do with the PvPers. They didn't make the system, and regardless of their opinion whether or not you deserve it, they're not the ones forcing you to grind.

Exactly my point. It works both ways. Grind is grind, and whether it's 200 hours for one person, or 20 hours for another, it was the decision of ANet and should be taken up with them. My point was, that there is grind, and no one person here can regulate who and who doesn't deserve something. We're all in this together, the majority of us do not want to grind. I would just like the PvE vs PvP, we did this so you do that, you have it easier than we do, mudslinging stance to really think about what they're promoting.

Xellos · May 26, 2005, 11:45 AM // 11:45

The only real problem of this is that it undermines the importance of a guild hall. The only reason people in PVE want a guild hall is because it's something special. At this rate, everyone and their dogs will have a guild hall to themselves if they want, making it absolutely worthless as a HoH prize.

Nash · May 26, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeppelin

Blaming the "PvE fanboys" as a whole by refusing to sell/trade your sigils in protest(for something that the majority of PvE players had nothing to do with).

Well, the PvE fanboys are the problem, or rather that ArenaNet listens to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeppelin

See man, this is where I get disappointed, because we're both seemingly wanting the same thing. Yet, you seem to hold a grudge against PvEers for, as you stated, something that isn't our fault in the first place. If you want to protest, then why take it out on the PvEers? I also do believe that it is a small fraction, only it may seem like more because people tend to come out of the woodwork to complain about something they don't like.

Not PvEers, I was one myself until the betas. The people who want to force everyone to grind are the ones who I have a problem with. Even so, without the protest, I still wouldn't sell my sigils. Gold is useless, sigils are not. Why would I trade something useful for something useless? I'd sooner start giving them out for free to people who aren't morons than I would sell them to some random jerk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeppelin

You did blame it on the PvE fanboys' narrowmindedness as a whole, which affects me I guess, being that I play mostly PvE and am in this category of not having a sigil. Your protest affects PvE players more than ANet, so essentially we're being 'punished' for the grind ANet puts on PvPers.

Well, if many others would stop selling sigils, that would punish the PvE crowd a lot, yes. The thing is that ArenaNet seems to listen to the PvE crowd, so what affects them affects ArenaNet. I'm not saying it's a great way of getting things done, but I'm not seeing any other way.

Xellos · May 26, 2005, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Gold is useless, sigils are not. Why would I trade something useful for something useless? I'd sooner start giving them out for free to people who aren't morons than I would sell them to some random jerk.

This is "Gold" right here.

it looks like gold is officially worthless just like it was in Diablo 2. Congradulations Anet, hope to see a 1.10 patch soon if this keeps up.

Chaynsaw · May 26, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

People...

It's not just us selling sigils at exorbitant prices... you're the ones buying them.

Which leads me to believe that these tirades about the economical stranglehold that players who earned sigils have over those that haven't (oh, the injustice!) are just hatchet-grinding with an activity you do not possess the effort, or desire to excel at.

I hear a lot of people making excuses and talking just straight up about what they won't do. Oh, they won't farm, they won't spend a huge amount of time on the game, they refuse to get TS or vent, they refuse to believe that a random pickup team of anybody they can get their hands on should be precluded from winning the HoH and getting their own sigil, they refuse to pay the price of a vanity item with virtual gold which can be obtained easily by several players if you advanced normally through the game and sold a few l33t items you found on the way.

Well, what WILL you do? Spend a half-hour doing a quest every week or so and expect to reap the same benefits that those of who feverishly assault and defend the Hall of Heroes do? Heap insults if you wish, but the fact of the matter is, we put in the time, the effort to strategize, the pain of putting together a good build, a good team, and bottom line, we earned those sigils. You're expecting to get more for less.

I do agree that the sigils were rising dangerously in cost. That any of you should demand that the rewards of our momentual efforts to secure sigils should be diminished, however, is appalling to me.

Xellos · May 26, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Actually, if you calculate the inserted cash into the system and factor in the inflation prices, 100k just isn't that much. 200k perhaps, but 100k seems about right at this point on. Most players that are finished the game that didn't buy the 15k armour have at least 50k. Their just whining because they bought their brand name armour and now cannot contribute much to the guild hall. What kind of argueing is that? You guys never complained about the 15k armour being too expensive, let alone the damn material costs. Why are you complaining about an item that affects your whole guild, not just you Mr.GQ?

KrystenDeathknight · May 26, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

I'm just going out on a limb here but i would say the reason that people are not complaining about the 15k armour is because the 15k armour is not a neccesary part of the titled game.

Correct me if i'm wrong but that 15k armour is for those who have way too much spare money and want to shell out for armour with EXACTLY the same stats as the 1500 armour but that has a different appearance.

Thats simply cosmetic desire, whereas a Sigil allows an essential part of the gameplay that is - "Guild Wars".

Chaynsaw · May 26, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

A guild hall is only essential if you PvP. It serves no other purpose, whatsoever.

Sarus hits the nail in the head with his post.

sama · May 26, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrystenDeathknight

I'm just going out on a limb here but i would say the reason that people are not complaining about the 15k armour is because the 15k armour is not a neccesary part of the titled game.

Correct me if i'm wrong but that 15k armour is for those who have way too much spare money and want to shell out for armour with EXACTLY the same stats as the 1500 armour but that has a different appearance.

Thats simply cosmetic desire, whereas a Sigil allows an essential part of the gameplay that is - "Guild Wars".

Hey haven't you heard?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Also, you most likely have a familiarity with the lore of the game. If you do, then you know that "Guild Wars" doesn't really refer to Guild versus Guild battles.

gg anet...u got me!

Robos Stavanis · May 26, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Your solution 2 has one major problem - and that is the same problem that makes csigils so expensive: only one team can hold the hall at a given moment. While any number of people can run through the underworld, you're bottlenecking your pvp rewards to essentially nothing. That makes fighting in the hall to become competitive suboptimal, while once you're ready to go the rewards are pretty meaningless.

There has to be a better pvp reward system than simply winning the HoH.

Laz

Perhaps. Though only 1 team can hold the Hall, several teams are doing battles to get to that point. Several teams can also run through the UW, however there is a cost to that, and not everyone will be able to complete, thus not win the sigil. While I will grant you there is a bit of a difference, I don't know that in practice it would be that drastic.

grimmolly · May 26, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

If you can't win the HoH or farm enough gold to buy a sigil, your guild certainly will not be ready for and will be dissapointed by GvG. I like the mechanic. It's like a rite of passage. This is mere tweaking.

thorizdin · May 26, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robos Stavanis

Several teams can also run through the UW, however there is a cost to that, and not everyone will be able to complete, thus not win the sigil. While I will grant you there is a bit of a difference, I don't know that in practice it would be that drastic.

HoH = 1 winner per round ~12 minutes and rewards only drop for the winning team.

UW = Unlimited teams and rewards drop throughout the map.

Which map will generate the most rare drops? By far, it will be UW.

Sadye X · May 26, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaynsaw

I do agree that the sigils were rising dangerously in cost. That any of you should demand that the rewards of our momentual efforts to secure sigils should be diminished, however, is appalling to me.

The first part of this statement is and has always been the central issue to the change, rather than people wanting something for nothing.

There's no single other item around that's gone up in cost in such an extreme way, in such little time. An example ~ minor runes sold in week 1 at or around 300 gold. They sell at the same price today.

Given the supply vs. demand aspect, there are actually many dropped items / runes in the game that should far exceed the value of a single sigil, simply based on the means of acquiring them. As stated numerous times, only a given number of sigils will ever drop per hour ... but keep in mind you already know exactly where those sigils drop, at what approximate rate, and if your guild is pvp focused, then you also have a general idea on what skill / teamwork is involved to win one ( or 3 with the added change ).

On the other hand, take a rare unidentified armor which has the potential to be a superior rune. I've been playing since the pre-launch on a regular basis, logging a fairly high amount of hours in explorable areas / missions, and have completed the game on the pve end of things. Yet, I've yet to have a single superior rune drop in a single area mission, for a single person in my group. So why is the cost for these on average less than half of that of a sigil ?

And now these same rare items that are ( apart from gold ) the only means of trade for sigils in the 100k market will *also* drop in HoH, it seems like a win / win for high ranked pvp guilds to me.

Yes, it takes alot of effort / skill / teamwork to hold the HoH, I've never debated that fact, but once you're there you have a fixed , pre-determined lootable award, as well as now getting a rare item. Meanwhile guilds / players who work just as hard, but enjoy going through pve *still* can play for a month solid and never see a single superior rune, and unless have the *grind for gold is fine by me * attitude, still face the same issue of wanting to enjoy a very interresting , primary aspect of the game, but being locked in the position of it being bottlenecked via the HoH being held by the same guilds over and over on a daily basis.

nechronius · May 26, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I saw a celestial sigil for sale at the sigil trader last night. 87,111 gold. It seems to be about the going rate for them.

Moskel · May 26, 2005, 05:15 PM // 17:15

One note, as long as a small group of teams win the HoH they can, should and will control the supply of Sigils. 3 dropping per HoH just increases their currency and makes them more money as the price was artificially limited to 100p since players can't carry more than that.

End up with too many Sigils for your mules? There is always the trashcan...that takes them back out of the supply and increases the price of the ones you do have.

Right now we have a few guilds that are focused in PvP and dominating this through the short term. For the long term to succeed in GvG you will need to have a large, active, well rounded guild. The ladder rankings while tied to wins over quality opponents will still reward you with some points for beating lower ranked opposition.

100p is nothing for a good PvE guild to pay, 7 unidentified gold drops and 100p is nothing to pay (this is physically the max an item can ever sell for) for a good guild. I personally have spent over 300p on things, I hold down a full time job, golf at least 3x a week and raise kids. I have identified tons and tons of gold drops.

I like the Sigil as a rite of passage. If your guild isn't strong enough to win HoH or collect the needed items to trade for one you need to focus on building and recruiting a stronger guild.

How hard do you think HoH would be to win if you put together 12 teams and all went in at the same time? (8x12=96, max in a guild is 100 players) Probably not very hard at all since if the teams are decent odds of 2-3 teams getting through to the end is good and then you can really unleash hell.

Ellestar · May 26, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

I am all for unlocking things. Give all guilds a guild hall for free. Give all the PvPers all the skills and items. Let people play to have fun, not to acquire. Unfortunately there are those who don't agree. Many of these are PvE fanboys. In protest against their narrowmindedness and the amount of grind, I am not selling sigils.

Nice idea. I have only one, but i also don't see any reason to sell it because i can't get runes unlocked for it anyway and just about everything else doesn't worth it.
PvP guilds have a monopoly on these items anyway. Is it possible to make a common agreement among them to shut down sigil trade until Arena.net will fix that grind required to PvP? It seems that they listen to carebear whine about guild hall (after all, they tried to fix a problem with sigils). Maybe that will force them to think about PvPers too...

Sarus · May 26, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Nice idea. I have only one, but i also don't see any reason to sell it because i can't get runes unlocked for it anyway and just about everything else doesn't worth it.
PvP guilds have a monopoly on these items anyway. Is it possible to make a common agreement among them to shut down sigil trade until Arena.net will fix that grind required to PvP? It seems that they listen to carebear whine about guild hall (after all, they tried to fix a problem with sigils). Maybe that will force them to think about PvPers too...

I doubt that will get them to change the PvP grind system. They'll probably just sell sigils at the trader for 100 gold or something to annoy the PvPers. And yes, gold is worthless. Buying runes is great and all but it's only a temporary solution to inevitably having to unlock the runes yourself. This of course means endless hours of farming and unlocking. The worst part is when you unlock a superior fast casting rune or something totally worthless. *sigh*

Dreamsmith · May 26, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

I'm sure you can relate to that since you're complaining about having to farm for money to buy a sigil.

Bah. I wish that was all it was. I'm happy to farm whatever gold I need to buy my 1.5p armor, or my 15p armor, or my 100p armor if they ever make some -- whatever. Just let me know how much I need, and where I need to go to talk to the merchant who will sell it to me.

My guild started our Guild Hall fund while we were all still in KoA, right after everyone contributed towards buying our cape. Rumor at the time was that sigils were going for some exhorbitant amount, but it didn't matter, we have plenty of people, we'd raise the cash. When I got to Lion's Arch, first thing I did was head for the Canthans and their sigil trader so I could report back to the guild what the price was we needed to raise. Unfortunately, I couldn't do that, because the sigil trader wouldn't sell me one, no matter how much money I had!

Eventually, we discovered people were trading them for 20p. We got 20p, but then they were selling for 30p. We raised 30p, but no one was selling for that price, now you needed 50p. So we raised 50p, but no one was selling for that price, now you needed 80p. Where does it end?

It's the one area hours played really does matter. A casual gamer can't hope to ever buy a sigil, because inflation will always keep them out of reach no matter how much they farm! With no fixed price, an extremely limited supply and a huge demand, when your guild is composed mostly of working people, half of them parents (or soon to be parents, in a few cases in my guild), well, it just isn't an option. We have lives, and the reason we like Guild Wars because it doesn't force the infinite leveling treadmill -- once you've put your time in, you can compete even with people who've put a lot more time in.

Except when it comes to sigils. No matter how many hours we spend farming gold, we won't get a sigil at this rate, since the price rises more quickly than we can meet it. It's an infinite farming treadmill, and there's no hope of ever reaching the end short of someone being charitable. We'll simply never be able to farm enough gold to meet the price, because the more gold we farm, the further away the goal recedes! I think money-wise, we're further away from meeting the goal today than we were the day we bought our cape, despite the thousands we've raised since then. At the current rate, once we've raised the 87p figure reported above, they'll be selling for about 120p. When we reach 120p, they'll be selling for 165p. And so on...

If the point is to force people to farm gold, set the price at 80p and give the sigil trader an unlimited supply. I haven't got a problem with that. I just have a problem with a system that makes it flat-out impossible to get a sigil no matter how much farming you do, because no matter how much you do, other people will be able to do it more, and raise the price yet again beyond what you made with your farming to date. An infinite amount of farming won't help if the price of a sigil goes to infinity at a faster rate, and it doesn't take a calculus expert to see this curve rises to infinite at a faster rate than our farming curve does.

If we're lucky, the recent changes will cause that curve to dip and intersect ours, and we'll get our Guild Hall. But eventually it will rebalance and start rising again, at which point, casual gamers can just forget the whole thing. Thanks to the timing, our guild may make it, but other guilds like ours in the future are just screwed. Try to form a guild of like-minded individuals, and you'll never get a guild hall.

Set a price, say 50p, and have the sigil trader sell them to whoever wants one for that price. I have nothing against rewarding people who win the HoH, but isn't dropping an item worth 50p or so reward enough? If not, pick a different price. I don't give a crap what the price is. As long as it's less than infinity, it's a more achievable goal than the current system, where the price is guarenteed to rise at a rate faster than any guild composed largely of people with lives outside of GW can keep up with. I wouldn't mind the price of sigils if it wasn't effectively infinite. If this latest patch doesn't stop the runaway inflation, then something else will have to eventually be done to stop it. I don't care where you fix the price, but bloody well fix it!

Sorry for the long rant, I'm just tired and pissed seeing people post who clearly don't even understand the problem. The problem isn't that we have to farm gold to buy a sigil, the problem is we can never buy a sigil, no matter how much we farm! The more we farm, the FURTHER we get from meeting the price!

Until the price gets fixed or stabalizes somehow, it's just flat out impossible for a lot of people to buy a sigil. That's the problem. Until something is done to HALT the inflation, rather than just reduce it, sigils will remain permanently out of reach for some no matter how much work they put into getting one, because someone else will put in that much work in less time.

Comparing this to the problem of having to grind for elites is silly. Anyone who wants to grind for elites can eventually get them, no matter how long it takes them to do it. The monsters leading up to you-know-who with Hundred Blades don't double in hit points every week. IF they did, then you'd have some basis for comparing the grind of getting your elites with the grind of getting a sigil.

Chaynsaw · May 26, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

If you can survive round after round in the Hall of Heroes without getting knocked out, you deserve the sigils.

And I mean no disrespect, Sadye, but PvE is a cake walk compared to PvP. I personally fall asleep during Fissure or UW runs. After a while, the patterns of one main tank, spam healing, not letting the Aatxes beat the crap out of vulnerable casters, and doing the same quests over and over becomes extremely monotonous. I really challenge anyone to argue that it's just as easy to farm in the Underworld as it is to win the Hall of Heroes. Keep in mind, many people can do UW at once, not to mention you don't have to go head-to-head with a dozen other teams who are all looking to remove you from the Hall of Heroes by any means they possess at their disposal.

I mean, do you really think that superior runes just drop like mad in the HoH? Yeah, I got a rare unidentified armor yesterday... it turned out to be a minor swordsmanship.

The best way to find runes and rares is still PvE farming. If sigils were made available through some kind of "quest" or PvE contrivance, they would be worth nothing, period.

Sarus · May 26, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

I don't give a crap what the price is. As long as it's less than infinity

The price was less than infinty. It was 100p and it can't go any higher than that since that's all you can hold on your character. I guess technically it could be 100p plus 7 rares or whatever number of slots they have in the trade window.