Curse

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

You're not 1337 enough to understand it. It's 1337-speak. ^^

Maybe the National Dart Association?

P.S. Hmmm - I think we were debating the prices of Sigils in this thread, weren't we? Well - to get back to this topic:

Because of all the reasons I've listed here I find that:

- the game should be fun to EVERYBODY, not only skilled players
- the skilled players can have their competitions, tournaments and prizes, but that shouldn't influence the fun other players want to have (and the sigil price and their scarcity IS afflicting the fun of the game)
- the game shouldn't be constructed in a way, which allows skilled players to spoil the fun of the unskilled ones - by that I don't mean beating them in PvP - that's all too natural - I mean sth. like hoarding Sigils and Uber Items to sell them for unreal prices - that's how you can spoil other people's fun indirectly

May 25, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

I know because a buddy of mine is an Alpha, and he has told me about it.

BTW WTF is NDA?

Your "buddy" obviously isnt good at understanding the rules for being in alpha. NDA is Non-Disclosure Agreement. In other words, we arent supposed to talk about anything that has to do with testing unless specifically told. You're "buddy " obviously didnt follow those rules.

thorizdin · May 25, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

NDA = Non Disclosure Agreement, a contract that binds you to not talk about items covered by the agreement.

Also, the closed testing continued to release date, its not really accurate to call it an Alpha, but that was the term that Arena.net used. I would say that either you or your buddy are out in left field.

Lasher Dragon · May 25, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Your "buddy" obviously isnt good at understanding the rules for being in alpha. NDA is Non-Disclosure Agreement. In other words, we arent supposed to talk about anything that has to do with testing unless specifically told. You're "buddy " obviously didnt follow those rules.

Ahh.. good thing I didn't post his name then huh? LOL

Mimi Miyagi · May 25, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

It's quite obvious which are the haves and have nots in these forums.

The sigil economy is beyond broken, it's lame as well. For those of you - "just go and collect 100K, it doesn't take that long" are ignorant and are using stupid arguments to justify their own egotistical attitudes.

The game hasn't even been out a month, and in that time frame the price of a sigil has gone from a coupld of K in gold, to 15K, then to 30, then 35-40, and skyrocketed to 100K - and there isn't any reason to believe that unless AN FIXES this, the price will continue to climb out of reach. All of this due to the greed of a relatively few players that want to maintain their stupid ladder position.

Just what does it matter to a top guild how many "average" guilds there are? If the price of a sigil suddenly plummets to 1k, what possible repercussions would there be that would threaten a top guild's position? How about none? So what if the ladder has a large group of average guilds? How does that impact you, the uber-elite jerks?

It doesn't. So what if you have to spend 2 minutes beating up some poor guild that has the audacity to challenge you? Is your time so precious that you can't be trifled with defending your spot to anyone outside of the top few teams?

It means nothing, except in ego and greed, to have a select few people within the game dictating to the rest of the unwashed masses how THEY get to enjoy themselves.

AN needs to fix this problem, before it gets even worse. Thank God there is a limit of 100K any single person can have on their person at any given time, but I'm sure the jerks at the top will find some way to circumvent this to get even more for a stupid single item. AN trumpets the lack of a monthly subscription fee - little did anyone know that this would be replaced by player driven economics.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Well - if you want to be understood by your readers, then you shouldn't post abbreviations if you don't give a clear context to allow them to be understood. In the internet language you can find thousands of abbreviations so it's only natural to assume that in this very speech act your referring to one of those.

Quote:

Whoops nevermind, NDA.

This isn't a good contextual sentence, is it? If think that NDA is so clear, then check this out:

http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-quer...=NDA&Find=Find

My advice: don't use abbreviations if you don't give the full name first or if you can't give a context, which would hint at the right meaning.

P.S. Mimi Miyagi: Exactly! If people claim that PvP is the best part of the game, then it shouldn't be so difficult to particpate in it. I mean - you don't have to BUY a map in Counter-Strike to play against your opponents, do you? =) There are thousands of lame clans in that game, but the best remain the best without bringing other people down - they aren't hated dictators but true role models for the worse players. If in GW I were to aspire to a guild, which wants to be the best just to sell Sigils for 100K, then I would surly quit it in no time.

Rothgar · May 25, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Thank God there is a limit of 100K any single person can have on their person at any given time, but I'm sure the jerks at the top will find some way to circumvent this to get even more for a stupid single item.

The "jerks" already are, I'm seeing people asking for 6-7 gold, unidentified items for one sigel. People like that just need to be given a big FU by the community.

And so long as one group of players control a single source of currency, aka the sigels, in this game we're going to continue having this problem.

I'm confident that ANet will soon realize this and start giving out "gold" rewards to the PvP players and sigels for PvE players.

jdwoody · May 25, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

In the retail game? All the way up to Southern Shiverpeaks. In the alpha test? NDA.

So this is the reward for being an alpha tester? You get to play the game for 2 years, get extra information about the game engine that noone else is allowed to know, then when it is released you extort/belittle the people who didn't get in as testers and are at an obvious disadvantage.

This game is unique but I don't think it's unique in a way that was intended. Most online games at least let new folks play. I don't think anyone can just pick up a copy of Counter-Strike or Warcraft III and be the greatest player ever the first time they play. This is the first game I've seen that allows alpha testers to keep paying customers from playing the game the primary way it was advertised. Guild vs Guild

Do you really believe if this disclaimer was put on the box Guild Wars would have sold at all?:

Disclaimer: Even though the name of the game is Guild Wars in order to participate in a guild vs guild battle you must either defeat the alpha testers who know more about the ingame mechanics than you do and have 2 years more experience or you need to take a chance at paying $30 to someone on ebay.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Hahaha - nice one jdwoody. ;-)

And this elitist-approach is what annoys me the most. I don't mind what you think of PvP, I don't mind what you think of PvE, but hell, let other players go their own way without playing their gods!

"Give me all your money, all your items, so, your weapons are customised - doesn't matter - we'll just salvage them - ah, and throw in your armor as well - we could use the runes you have on it - good - now you have a sigil, go and make yourself a Guild Hall while we are swimming in our money - and don't even THINK of beating us in the HoH - we play 24/7 anyway and 50% of us were Alpha testers - have fun with your sigil" ;-)

Anariel · May 25, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Obviously the people who have a stranglehold on the sigil prices are going to want to keep that power. Power attracts the corruptable, and the corrupted begets the vain and vulnerable. For every post here that decries paying such high prices for a sigil, there are 5 or 10 guilds willing to fork over 80k+ gold to buy it. Those with stashes of sigils want to keep the prices high so that they can in turn buy the runes and upgrades to outfit their characters, and get items for which they never have to farm. Now they want unidentified gold salvage items because these unlock runes for all PvP characters they create.

It's a vicious cycle created by the quick and dirty PvP character system, which personally I dislike on principle. The level 20 PvP characters seemed like a good idea at first, a promise of no grind and fast entry to PvP. But what it creates is a lot of laziness on all levels of gameplay. Play the game for fun, not as an aristocrat waiting for everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. If you want to do that, go watch some television.

Nash · May 25, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

You want sigils easily? Fine, make ArenaNet unlock all skills and runes and stuff for PvP first. Then you can have them hand out all the sigils you want in Lion's Arch or whatever.

I'm not gonna sell mine, both as a protest, and since gold is useless anyway and won't get me anything unlocked.

Mimi Miyagi · May 25, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

#1 - No one said they want it "easy". People are (I think) mainly pissed that a select few that are hording them are charging extortion rates for a single in-game item. Just like you.

#2 - People also (I think) don't care about ladder position as much as the chance to be ON the ladder. Again, jerks holding something hostage for their own free and easy end is stupid and lame. It goes back to what I said before, a few jerks dictating to the rest of the people how to play.

#3 - People also are pissed that the PVE players are beeing treated as nothing more than rune/item farmers for the lazy PVP players.

Notice a common theme?

Aparently, the only people being lazy and trying to get something in a cheap fashion are the PVP only players hording sigils and demanding the PVE players to ***** themselves out for the highest bidder.

GJ.

chalt2 · May 25, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

It's quite obvious which are the haves and have nots in these forums.

The sigil economy is beyond broken, it's lame as well. For those of you - "just go and collect 100K, it doesn't take that long" are ignorant and are using stupid arguments to justify their own egotistical attitudes.

The game hasn't even been out a month, and in that time frame the price of a sigil has gone from a coupld of K in gold, to 15K, then to 30, then 35-40, and skyrocketed to 100K - and there isn't any reason to believe that unless AN FIXES this, the price will continue to climb out of reach. All of this due to the greed of a relatively few players that want to maintain their stupid ladder position.

Yes, by george you've got it, I started a thread that had the same thought about two weeks ago when the Sigil price was 30k

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anariel

Obviously the people who have a stranglehold on the sigil prices are going to want to keep that power. Power attracts the corruptable, and the corrupted begets the vain and vulnerable. For every post here that decries paying such high prices for a sigil, there are 5 or 10 guilds willing to fork over 80k+ gold to buy it. Those with stashes of sigils want to keep the prices high so that they can in turn buy the runes and upgrades to outfit their characters, and get items for which they never have to farm. Now they want unidentified gold salvage items because these unlock runes for all PvP characters they create.

It's a vicious cycle created by the quick and dirty PvP character system, which personally I dislike on principle. The level 20 PvP characters seemed like a good idea at first, a promise of no grind and fast entry to PvP. But what it creates is a lot of laziness on all levels of gameplay. Play the game for fun, not as an aristocrat waiting for everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. If you want to do that, go watch some television

Anariel, you are one of my new heros!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

I'm not gonna sell mine, both as a protest, and since gold is useless anyway and won't get me anything unlocked

The selfish and narrowminded are well represented by your statements
Thank you making the following point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anariel

Power attracts the corruptable, and the corrupted begets the vain and vulnerable.

sama · May 25, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Also, you most likely have a familiarity with the lore of the game. If you do, then you know that "Guild Wars" doesn't really refer to Guild versus Guild battles.

i can't believe no one has commented on this statement... In my case, I want to have a comment but I'm at such a loss for words...

Allow me to make some observations about this game and this thread.

1. The economy was broken at the very start of the game. As such, money is quite useless. It's been falling like rain for me even without selling sigils. I get 5k+ in about 10 mins during my riverside runs while farming runes.

2. The sigil winners are more or less the same people day in and day out. So it basically means that the increase sigil drops will be going towards the same people who've been winning it before. So I don't see how this "fix" would help much.

3. the reason why pvp is inherently more challenging than pve is because of the type of opponent you're facing. In the former, you're playing against different people that are capable of adapting (the most important skill any pvp player can have). While in pve, it may be challenging the first time around, but once you figure out the course of action, it simplys becomes an act of repitition.

4. the animosity between pve and pvp has grown a bit in this thread. aren't post that are direct flames normally removed?

Currently, the only two ways of obtaining a sigil is through winning the HoH (pvp way) and buying one of a HoH winner (pve way). Neither should be difficult to do for both types of players. I should point out that a sigil is solely used for buying a guild hall -- an item that is purely a status symbol to pve guilds as there is nothing you can do there but start gvg matches. Anet made sigils rare for a reason. Their philosophy was that guilds needed to earn a guild hall, not be given one. This is not too different an argument pve players make against pvp players in the skill acquisition issue.

jdwoody · May 25, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I am also hoping they do something about elite skills, but I don't understand "gold is useless." I would think that with all the gold you have you could easily buy all the runes you want, you don't need to unlock them.

Good luck with your protest, no matter what you elites have to say about those lowly people like myself that just want to enjoy the game, at least we don't go out of our way to make you miserable.

Mimi Miyagi · May 25, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by sama

Currently, the only two ways of obtaining a sigil is through winning the HoH (pvp way) and buying one of a HoH winner (pve way). Neither should be difficult to do for both types of players. I should point out that a sigil is solely used for buying a guild hall -- an item that is purely a status symbol to pve guilds as there is nothing you can do there but start gvg matches. Anet made sigils rare for a reason. Their philosophy was that guilds needed to earn a guild hall, not be given one. This is not too different an argument pve players make against pvp players in the skill acquisition issue.

You're again missing the point. Instead of the PVP players (and a select few at that) determining who and how and at what price PVE players pay for a sigil, this needs to be determined by AN. Not you.

Will AN's "fix" truly fix anything? I doubt it. The only real way to "fix" it is to completely separate the PVP from the PVE. PVP HoH only. Thus, those that want to simply play PVP can do so without raining on the PVE player's parade. The PVE players will still "earn" their sigil without the PVP players interfering with the PVE economy - and vice versus.

Then AN can unlock all those elite skills the PVP players are so desperate to gain for nothing.

May 25, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

There seems to be a ton of misconceptions of information and not enough reading going on. Lets clear some of this up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

Well - if you want to be understood by your readers, then you shouldn't post abbreviations if you don't give a clear context to allow them to be understood. In the internet language you can find thousands of abbreviations so it's only natural to assume that in this very speech act your referring to one of those.

The term NDA has been around for ages, and is well understood by most of the community what it means since it's not only a Guild Wars term but a general term used when discussing contracts. But you're right, I was wrong for assuming that you did know what it meant as actual discussion about it isn't exactly robust on these forums.

Quote:

P.S. Mimi Miyagi: Exactly! If people claim that PvP is the best part of the game, then it shouldn't be so difficult to particpate in it.

I think PvP should be accessible to everyone. The fact that sigils are selling for 100k isn't necessarily the top PvP guilds being greedy-it's just a result of the current rune/item system. PvP players have to pay for their runes and what not and the best way to do that is to acquire something rare and expensive that's in high demand-Celestial sigils. My only gripe about all this is that some people are pissed off and blame it on the PvP players when it's a result of the skill and item acquisition system that many have been complaining about for a while now. Those same people many have called whiners and crybabies about grinding are many of the same people getting rich off of this right now and laughing. Arrogant? yea. Is it right to ignore the fact that this is all one big mess that finally bit some people in the ass? Not at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdwoody

So this is the reward for being an alpha tester? You get to play the game for 2 years, get extra information about the game engine that noone else is allowed to know, then when it is released you extort/belittle the people who didn't get in as testers and are at an obvious disadvantage.

Actually you should stop assuming things you know nothing about. The information on Gurus and other fansites has 0 help from ArenaNet. We do everything ourselves and figure out how things work by trying stuff out. You could also go out there and figure stuff out yourself. So intead of trying to use some imaginary situation the least you could have do was asked about the situation. Many of the things people know were done by gamers not in the alpha test or before they were in the test. Assuming things is bad and now it's once again derailed this topic.

Quote:

This game is unique but I don't think it's unique in a way that was intended. Most online games at least let new folks play. I don't think anyone can just pick up a copy of Counter-Strike or Warcraft III and be the greatest player ever the first time they play. This is the first game I've seen that allows alpha testers to keep paying customers from playing the game the primary way it was advertised. Guild vs Guild

What are you talking about? First and foremost alpha testers arent all great at PvP. In fact, there are very few good PvP alpha guilds. Secondly, most of them got into the alpha as BWE participants because they did well in a PvP contest-beating out most of the alpha guilds at that time. So instead of making excuses for lack of your own skill or dedication to beat people you come up with stuff like this? Once again you dont know what you are talking about. Call me arrogant or whatever but I dont like it when people pull things out there ass and make excuses.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Hehe - so we have a nice situation here:

PvP players are too lazy to unlock their skills, PvE players are too lazy to get the gold needed for a Sigil. But you know - maybe if more guilds had halls they would realize how nice GvG can be. ^^
I'm worried about the number of guilds listed on the ladder - there should be FAR more. I know, that not every newbish guild should get a GH right from the beginning, but that's exactly where my suggestion on making Sigils untradeable comes into play. As a guild leader you would have to do a real QUESTto get your guild a GH (PvE) or win the HoH the usual way (PvP) - this would amount to about the same thing that is happening now - that is: Sigils would be still hard to come by, but at least it wouldn't lead to some elitist jerks using other players as their minions for collecting runes/upgrades and getting richer and richer in the process. 0_o

Mimi Miyagi · May 25, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

PvP players have to pay for their runes and what not and the easiest way to do that is to acquire something rare and expensive that's in high demand-Celestial sigils.

Fixed.

May 25, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

Hehe - so we have a nice situation here:

PvP players are too lazy to unlock their skills, PvE players are too lazy to get the gold needed for a Sigil. But you know - maybe if more guilds had halls they would realize how nice GvG can be. ^^
I'm worried about the number of guilds listed on the ladder - there should be FAR more. I know, that not every newbish guild should get a GH right from the beginning, but that's exactly where my suggestion on making Sigils untradeable comes into play. As a guild leader you would have to do a real QUESTto get your guild a GH (PvE) or win the HoH the usual way (PvP) - this would amount to about the same thing that is happening now - that is: Sigils would be still hard to get by, but at least it wouldn't lead to some elitist jerks using other players as their minions for collecting runes/upgrades. 0_o

The current bottleneck on the GvG ladder pretty much explains why its a piece of shit. But making sigils untradeable doesn't help. They need to make sigils available through PvE in some way. Whether or not people are being lazy or there is a problem with the designs of the game are up for questioning, and I think thats been exhausted countless times.

Also for a point I missed in my last post to Jd: I hope you arent implying that alpha testers get to play the game for free because we had to pay for it just like everyone else.

Mimi Miyagi: Easiest from who's perspective? A good PvP guild? Definetly since it's easier to do this than to continually go through PvP for most. Like I've stated earning a sigil shouldn't be something that boils down to "pay up or cry". But blaming PvP people for doing something that in all fairness-is gotten through PvP isn't going to solve anything. the same arguments that PvE players used for the skill and item acquisitions are being used against them now: "Stop crying". "You arent forced to have a guild hall". "it doesn't take long to make money". While sometimes irony is pretty damn funny it's also time to stop laughing and find a solution to all of this instead of flaming the other side.