Curse

Sugar Nspice · Jun 22, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

please stop talking about counterstrike.
please stop trying to compare skills in different games.
gw takes skill. just totally different from the skill it takes to play CS.
chess takes skill. just totally different from gw and cs.

skill is so very different.
anyone with some intelligence could be taught to be a great chess player.
anyone investing sometime and a lil bit of knowledge could be a great gw player.
cs is a bit different. you can be taught it...and some intelligence does help. but you will be limited on how great you can be by how God made you and your family's genetic makeup. some people simply dont have the reaction time and hand eye coordination to be any good at fps games no matter how much coaching and or practice. much like professional sports. there body size and natural atheletic ability weigh quite heavy...along with some knowledge and coaching.

gw is great....i love it as a time sink.
cs is great.
heck..chess is great.

but the people on this forum flaming cs are ignorant towards cs. even mr. i played it since beta. well you may have ....but you sucked since beta. i say that because of your comments about the game being random and luck based. anyone that has a clue about cs and follows the game, the community, the tournamants, the top teams that travel international for 10's of thousands of dollars around the world know that to be false.

you say things like ....when you say you dont like a game ...everyone assumes your suck at it. thats not true. but in your case the other comments you've made make it obvious you dont have a clue about the game on the competitive level. and don't go into guild wars competitive level. as the game is new and its just some kids playing over the internet for fun right now. (except the E3 competition where usa let me down

the cs community is an amazing thing. its huge. do you think the kind of money being thrown at cs tournaments is just a fluke for a game based on Luck. when people start making their living just by playing guild wars....then you can start talking about skill.

now to my point
i'm not saying gw and chess dont require skill. i'm just saying its skill anyone can achieve if they try and are coached a bit. counterstrike takes some God given ability to be great at. dispute that claim

anyone can be good at things like chess, cards, living in their parents basement when they are 30. but try and be a professional at something that takes hand eye coordination when you have none.

Yamat · Jun 22, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Here, here, Sugar Nspice. Finally some intelligence on this board.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nspice

now to my point
i'm not saying gw and chess dont require skill. i'm just saying its skill anyone can achieve if they try and are coached a bit.

very very very good point.

bobrath · Jun 22, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

they're being compared because they are both PvP...

then lets start comparing them to Spades, drag racing, football, jigsaw puzzle competitions, and jeopardy.... All of those involve a player versus another player. No wait, that would just be silly....

Aug · Jun 22, 2005, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

then lets start comparing them to Spades, drag racing, football, jigsaw puzzle competitions, and jeopardy.... All of those involve a player versus another player. No wait, that would just be silly....

It at least has to be online! Online Spades 4tw. It takes way more skill than CS.

On the money factor, there probably is a comparable amount of prize money given to top M:tG players as there is to top CS players.

GW might get to that point. It's hard to say. I doubt many people ever would've thought playing M:tG or CS could become occupations.

bobrath · Jun 22, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nspice

now to my point
i'm not saying gw and chess dont require skill. i'm just saying its skill anyone can achieve if they try and are coached a bit. counterstrike takes some God given ability to be great at. dispute that claim

anyone can be good at things like chess, cards, living in their parents basement when they are 30. but try and be a professional at something that takes hand eye coordination when you have none.

There's being good at something and then there's being the absolute top flight person or group at your sport. Bringing hand eye coordination into this discussion as the end all definition of skill is limiting and incorrect.

Yes, there are people out there that are just amazingly better and seem to pick stuff up and excel beyond anyone's attempt to teach. Tony Hawk, Adam Smith, Gary Kasparov, Jerry Rice, Ken Jennings, Wayne Gretzky. There's no way you can tell me that each and every person I just listed didn't have some sort of "god given ability to be great at."

You also mention that folks can make their living off of CS tournaments and I won't deny that. However, were there people making a living off of CS in the first 3 months it was released?

I appreciate that to some people the PvP of GW is lacking in the quick twitch, I just dodged your best shot, ha ha ha ha factor. I also appreciate that to others the PvP of CS is lacking in the diversity of tactics factor. However, they both require unique skills to be good. Attempting to compare to unique competitions that have been around for very different periods of time is a waste of our time and will just go in pages and pages of circles. Twitch versus thought. Which is "superior"? Who cares as long as you have fun doing what you're doing. Algren enjoys the PvE aspect, others enjoy the GvG aspect. Can't you both just admit that just *maybe* there's room for both to be fun without lessening the fun of the other's point of view?

Draken · Jun 22, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I think what frustrates some people about pvp is the counter vs. counter nature of it. if you didn't bring a way of countering some build and its strong enough your going to lose. It takes alot of planning to consistantly win. I am a cs player also and have played competitvly and i can say strat is a bit thinner and more fluid you don't have to pre plan your battles out more then some basics most of the strat is done on the fly. the on the fly strat for guild wars is alot less especialy in PUGs. all it consits of is who your mes disables how you deal with a specifc team or a specifc skill that hurts your build which is not as easy if you didn't think ahead and bring some means to counter.

anyway im deep in the strat in guildwars i love the preplanning I can't imagine going with a pug though... their is no way to be competitive.

Sugar Nspice · Jun 22, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

just 1 more quick comment on my above point to clarify.
i have alot of respect for those that are great at pvp in gw.
just like i have alot of respect for the great bowlers of this world.
but i'm saying pretty much everyone could achieve the status of Great at those 2 things mentioned. when it comes to cs, basketball, ping pong. i think some have a chance at greatness....and some just weren't given the genes at birth to be great at something demanding athetisism, quick reaction, hand eye coordination, instinct. they can participate...and be ok...maybe even good....but they won't ever be great.

the problem is the people that can't get great at them....mock them....like everyone on this board mocking cs....saying HAX. or people that say ftball players on dumb. that basketball players beat their wives. well thats not the issue. the issue is they can do things you cant do.....and i call that Skill. (something making you better as something than someone else) not something Everyone has or can achieve with little or no effort.

the other problem is people like me....
people that feel they have the aforementioned skill. and like to put it on display and brag and the such.

so we all have something to work on. for some...its accepting they are void of skill....and for others.....learn to be less egotistical and try not to look down on the puter nerds so much.....as they are people too....and more importantly...they are just as important in society as the rest of the people in the world.

ratatass · Jun 22, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

PvP for guildless people ie Tombs , yes of course it gets boring QUICK! I agree, the poster should have that.

Getting a good Tombs team from PUGS is impossible these days. It is mindless, and it is boring and frustrating...yes.

I have been gone for a loooong time from GW due to some circumstances and can only pay randomly on a shitty modem through 50 firewalls and company software that slows things down even more.

So needless to say my guild has gone down the tubes with the leader (me) gone... I have encouraged them to seek other guilds.

The Sigils cost tooo much...After grinding and finally getting one, our Guild became dysfunctional because of me and disbanded pretty much. NOW, when I get back to civilization I will have to grind again for the Sigil, cause I know a pick up group in the Tombs will not yield a sigil.

So, yes extremely broing quick for the guildless in PvP and to much for the Sigils.

Ratatass

hydrak · Jun 22, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

do you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation or are you only good for unfounded accusations?

the number of hackers in league play (PAST CAL-O)...is so small it's not even relevant.

Someone is getting defensive... Scroll back to the top pages, you even admitted it yourself that you hack in CS. When I started to ridicule hackers in CS, then you made some lame excuse that you are better than the CS admins, and that's why they banned you.

bobrath · Jun 22, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Actually he only said he was kicked for hacking, not that he hacked. There is a difference.

Spyle · Jun 22, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

I have the solution for all!

Play BF2.

Sugar Nspice · Jun 22, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

kicked because someone with no skill
thought he had too much skill.

someone like you hydrak.

Rieselle · Jun 22, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nspice

now to my point
i'm not saying gw and chess dont require skill. i'm just saying its skill anyone can achieve if they try and are coached a bit. counterstrike takes some God given ability to be great at. dispute that claim

anyone can be good at things like chess, cards, living in their parents basement when they are 30. but try and be a professional at something that takes hand eye coordination when you have none.

I think you're underestimating the intelligence of some people and the stupidity of others. To compete at the upper levels of a game like Chess or Go is available only to people with a very special kind of mind - probably rarer than the twitch reflexes required to be godly at CS.

I very much doubt that "anyone" can be "good" at chess merely by study and practice... and if your definition of "good" includes those people, then "anyone" can get "good" at FPS's just from watching map runs and lots of practice. But are either of them godly? Of course not - natural talent + hard work will always beat just hard work.

And besides, CS is crappy pvp. Just run the maps the right way, and practice your headshots. The better you get at 2 simple things, the better your results.

Why not throw in fighting games like Virtua Fighter 4 or Soul Calibur into the discussion? They're the ULTIMATE in pvp - no cheats, no hacks, dozens of different play styles and things to get good at (defense vs. throws vs. combos vs. timing vs. zoning vs. movement vs. high-low game... ) lots of thought required, VERY fast paced.

(and yes, there are crappy fighting games where you can button mash to victory. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the good ones.)

Aria · Jun 22, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

maybe we're playing a different game...but when ranger scouts shoot arrows me...whether or not I move those arrows hit...I can't 'dodge' in GW...and neither can you. You can move out of the meteor shower yes, but you can't dodge an attack. AND if by chance I do happen to move out of the way of an attack...I still have to stop, lock onto a target, and then attack...making dodging attacks almost useless.

This, unfortunately, merely re-emphasizes how little you know of Guild Wars. You *can* dodge wand attacks, projectiles, and bow shots. It's called "strafing." It's very easy, and I'm sure many people here will be glad to show you how, if you ask.

As for retargeting, when you strafe, you do not lose a target. Dodging attacks are far from "almost useless."

As of this moment, your argument itself has no weight. Why? You haven't even begun to brush the fundamentals of Guild Wars PvP. Random arena is a joke. Even competitive arena is often seen as a testing ground when a good team lacks 8 members. Before making a 7 page thread that attempts to argue the absurdity of Guild Wars PvP and how it takes absolutely no skill, please try to experience more than 1% of the PvP experience.

Many people in this thread have offered to show you more of this aforementioned PvP experience. Please do so before adding another page of the same old argument of "Guild Wars PvP sucks" without concrete examples to back up that argument. Otherwise, this is just a very long troll thread..

As it this, this thread is going extremely off-topic. Please try to stay on topic in the future, and please try to keep all personal attacks and name calling off the forums.

Also, please *please* do not double post. The reply button will always be there. If the same person continues to double post multiple times, I will start to delete double posts without bothering to add the double post content to the last post. Please help us keep our boards relatively organized.

Thread closed.

Thank you,
Aria

hydrak · Jun 22, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Actually he only said he was kicked for hacking, not that he hacked. There is a difference.

He used hacks, or he was using hacks.
He hacked the servers, or he was hacking the servers.

What are the diferences? Whatever he was doing, I'm 100% sure that it has to do with gaining an unfair advantage over others.