Curse

ManadartheHealer · Jun 19, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

I sell all my items cheap, because I never sell items to other players to make money; only to clear space

I sold a clean, max damage mursaat hammer for 600g the other day

Numa Pompilius · Jun 19, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

* The problem isn't that noone knows what things are worth, the problem is that more gold is going in to the economy than is going out, so each gold becomes progressively less worth. This is what inflation is. If everyone had on average 10 plat, it'd be a whole lot more difficult to sell an item for 100 plat than if everyone on average has 200 plat. Hence a trading place will make selling and buying easier, but it will not help with the prices, as the problem is that everyone's got so much gold and so little to spend it on.

* What the game needs are gold sinks. Problem is, gold sinks are annoying. Typical sinks would be e.g. that you'd need to repair your armor and weapons after every mission (and cost would be based on the price of the item), that one'd need to buy supplies (f.ex. arrows) or that map-travel costs money. Annoying. But perhaps necessary.

* Gold wipe: instead of wiping all gold, go the turkish way, and delete two zeros. 100 gold before wipe = 1 gold after the wipe. Not sure if it's technically feasible.

* 1.25 million for an axe? I've got a real problem seeing how anyone can sell or buy anything for 1.25 million. Can you even carry that much gold?

* the guys with too much cash are farmers and trader. That simple. If you play the campaign, you'll have just enough money to buy a good armor at the end. An alternative to creating gold-sinks is therefore to instead throttle gold creation/amassing - for instance by making farming hard, or making it impossible to sell items except to traders. If everyone are left to their own devices, they simply will never get all that much gold.

* The real question, though, is - is there really a problem with the prices? It seems to me, here on the euro servers, as if prices are fairly stable, even dropping a bit for e.g. dyes. Presumably Anet has tools for visualizing the amount of gold in the system, and graphs for the prices of e.g. runes and dyes - that way THEY'LL know if the inflation is getting out of hand. We who don't have access to such tools don't really know if the problem exists or not. Personally I think it's severely exaggerated, unless things are much worse in the US than in Europe.

Diplo · Jun 19, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

What the game needs are gold sinks. Problem is, gold sinks are annoying. Typical sinks would be e.g. that you'd need to repair your armor and weapons after every mission...

Gold sinks don't have to be compulsory or annoying, though. For instance, the game already has sinks such as dye and dwarven ale. What these show is that people will voluntarily 'throw away' their money for the sake of looking cool or having a bit of fun. So what the game really needs are more ways for people to 'waste' their money for rewards that they cannot sell on again. A few suggestions, then:

Gambling - gambling is a tried and trusted way of loosing money You could play simple card-like games against NPCs or even if have betting on the outcome of battles etc. Instead of horse races you could have devourer races which you could bet on etc. Of course, the house would always maintain a 10% or so margin...
Casual Ware - alongside armour you could also sell 'non-battle' clothes that you could dress your character up in. It seems lots of people have fun playing 'virtual Barbie' with their characters and making them look cool around town. So, why not have a wide range of clothes available that look good but have no practical function? These would all be customised to a character (so couldn't be sold on) and could only be bought from NPCs.
Discos - Go to any town and you'll see people love to dance. So, why not expand the concept of Dwarven ale, casual clothes and dancing and make some kind of nightclub were people could hang out? There'd be an admission charge and dress-code and plenty of beer and hallucinogenic drugs to buy Great way of wasting money...
Taxation - Not really fun, but if there was a sliding scale of sales tax on all sales then this might help curb inflation. You'd have no tax below a certain threshold, but if you tried to sell goods for more than (say) 10000G then there'd be a 50% sales tax.

JoDiamonds · Jun 19, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

The largest reason there is inflation is because high end players continually make money and have nothing to spend it on. When they decide they want something, they are more than willing to pay an "overcosted" amount to save time. This will continue to happen as long as players keep getting money and essentially have nothing important to spend it on. (Note that I'm not talking about farming or anything outside of "normal gameplay"; it's just that high end players have a big income, being where they are, and nothing to spend money on.)

Given that sellers will figure out there are superrich, lazy (for good reasons) buyers out there, the price will just keep creeping up.

Any real solution will need to deal with this aspect of the economy somehow. Many proposed solutions do deal with SOME of the problems, and might be good ideas to implement ANYWAY, but if you are specifically trying to fight inflation, this is an important place to start.

aja · Jun 19, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

plenty of beer and hallucinogenic drugs

count me in

ZenBoy · Jun 19, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holoman

Everquest has the player merchant method for dealing with buying and selling among players. Basically when you enter the selling district you can call up a window and enter the item that you are looking for. Once you found the item that you are looking for, just click on the find trader button and you would be directed to face the seller. Eventually, you would be able to find the seller by clicking on the button several times to redirect you as you run toward that trader.
http://www.rpgexpert.com/everquest/bazaar2.jpg
This is a picture of the interface and I think it was a great implementation.

I also think it was a great implementation. The best part is you could buy or sell without the tedium of spamming the chat window or sitting around for an hour trying to sift through everyone's messages. When I played EQ, I could just zip on over to the bazaar, check the wepons (or whatever) to see if someone had what I was looking for - in 3-4 minutes I could see if anyone was selling something that I was interested in and then be on my way and get back to playing. You didn't have to wait for hours hoping that something would offer what you were looking for. Check real quick, no one is selling what I'm looking for, ok, time to move on and get back to playing. OR if I had to go run some errands for an hour or so, just click that I want to be a merchant, pick out what goods I want to sell and the price I want for it, and then leave the game running. I spend an hour IRL and I come back and if soemone wanted what I had, I might have made some extra cash with very little effort. Of course, you do have to expend some effort to get the goods you want to sell, but your goods dont do you any good or get you any money if you can't connect with someone to sell them. You want to buy something specific, you go to the bazaar, you got something to sell, you go to the bazaar, you got an extra 20K and you want to see if you can find something interesting to upgrade to, you can go to the bazaar.

Dax · Jun 19, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

ATM I have more money I know what to do with, not that I have alot but it seems it is way too easy to get items I need. I have never needed to buy a weapon and usually by the end of a quest I have no room in my inventory.

IMO, the problem with the ecomony is the fact there isn't a demand on anything but a few select items. I think the strength economys like WoW is that fact that people are dependant on other people who harvest items for crafting, cooking, alchemy ect. It give players on all levels a chance to participate...and give items that may be considered not very exciting a sense of worth. Also of course there is no auction house.

So my suggestions would be to create an auction house, make people more dependant on raw materials by introducing craftable items that can be traded or sold such as other different armor (which are not just for your own character), and try come up with other things that people might want to spend money on other than PVP items.
I know that this may involve more...umm grind for some people, but there are others who enjoy it.

oostdyk · Jun 19, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

A possible solution that has been going around is to allow players to set up their own “Shops.”

Unfortunately, player-owned shops are problems in and of themselves. Location will become an issue; more players will prefer to have their shops at town entrances or by traders because their items will sell faster to arriving players or players looking to shop. Towns and Cities will become very crowded; therefore the Shop System would only be made available in special “Shopping Districts.” A Shopping District will be a special district set aside solely for the purpose of sale and purchase of items via the Shop System.

An interesting solution indeed, especially the shopping district.

I personally have had a lot of experience with economy based gameplay in lineage 2. Since l2 is a very item-acquiring based game, they split these up according to lvl and had a good merchant system ready at launch.

The items were 'graded' (No Grade, D Grade, C/B/A, and finally S)

The merchants sold items up to D-Grade (lvl 20-40) These were sold at fixed prices, and bought back at 50% value. Items could not wear & tear, so people tried to resell their previous weapon at a certain value. Often enough, the resell value tended to stabilize around 75%, since both seller and buyer eventually compromised halfway. At first however, sellers were selling at just a little bit under, especially when it was the only one of its kind being sold in that particular town.

Lineage 2 had a private store function. Anybody could set up their store with 3 items (dwarves could sell 5, because of their crafting ability and importance in player economy) They'd be allowed to have a text box above their head with a message about content or things like "<<<`~DROP ONLY ITEMS!!!---CHEAP!!!`~>>>"... whatever floats your boat.

After a while, towns got crowded, people lvl'd up and wanted their money's worth. So what happened? Towns with about 500 people sitting very closely packed next to stores or at the centre of towns, all with messages above their heads crying for attention. Chats flooded with messages and people would simply go AFK for days leaving expensive items to get sold. Later on, a system was added that disconnected people that had a store open for longer than a set time (like 12/24 hours) from the server.

In this aspect, the shopping district sounds like a good idea. To completely avoid crowding, an auction system of some type could be used. However, auctioning might not be the best way, you could also just let people put up items in the sale house of the current town they are in, and allow them to check back if items were sold to collect the money from sales (perhaps checking back could be done from any sale house) I am indeed hinting at the possible exclusion of auctioning. Rather just plain selling, in the form of a sale house.

I myself have trouble figuring out what to price things I'm selling at, because they often have the same names, looks and special features are generaly not understood in the places you are trying to sell them.

Again, relating back to previous experience, l2 featured a clear set of weapons per grade. There were, however, best-of-the-grade weapons/amror that could not be purchased from stores. (after d-grade, you could buy c-grade from a 'luxury' store, that only took crystals. These could be salvaged from any weapons higher than non-grade) These items, at first dropped and later crafted, were sold at rediculous prices when they first arrived. I remember selling 29p.def gloves (you could buy up to 27 I believe) for 3 times the value of the best ones from the store. This went down to only 120% after about a week. I did, however, make about a million 'adena' from simple bartering and running from town to town buying and selling for 3 days. a million in this aspect would be the best buyable weapon at levels 20-40, which is generally about 1-2 months game time. A considerable amount at least.

I am very pleased with the rune/dye/scroll merchants GW now has, since they stimulate actual 'fair' trade based on the demand of an item. Perhaps this could also be stimulated further through a better indication of weapon worth through merchants.

Currently, weapons that would sell for a lot of money are only bought for a small portion of their apparent 'worth' by traders, making it all very confusing. Up to now, I've simply not even tried selling things more than a few times, unless I 'knew' they were top notch equipment, and even then, I was only comparing to experience descriptions of other players. It's much easier and less frustrating to just salvage weapons and then sell the salvage to the merchants, rather than go through the enormous fuss (IMHO, currently that's what it is at the moment) of finding a buyer.

TopGun · Jun 19, 2005, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Oostdyk, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, you bring about some interesting points. While I have never played L2, the shop system you mention that they set up seems overly chaotic and ineffective. Rather than having a message over your head, would it be easier to simple have a box with the item's information above your head? You would be able to select an item for sale, and that item's stats would appear in a small box over your head. Of course, you would only be able to show one item, otherwise the display would get far too crowded.

In order to solve crowding around shops and shops being placed to close to one another, "collision bubbles" must be set. These "collision bubbles" are invisible spheres which prevent any player from setting up a shop within your little bubble. Perhaps a small patch of dirt, or maybe stone, could appear underneath the shopkeeper. This would be the shopkeeper's area, and no other shopkeeper would be allowed to set up a shop in that small area. This way, areas won't flood with billions of shops on top of each other.

Districts will, of course, have to have a pop cap, but what if we had selective districts? Since weaponry is most commonly for sale, we could have a bow sale district, a hammer sale district, staff sale district, etc., another district for selling focus items, another district for dye sales, and another for selling crafting materials. This way you could have an easier time finding what's for sale, and a seller can have an easier time finding potential buyers.

Dax · Jun 19, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

These are great ideas, I would have little problem with some sort of Auction House or setting up a Bazzare (sp) since there is alot of people standing around anyways. I do think there might be overcrowding if people did put up permenant mules though.

But ATM this is this is the question I have about the economy:
As it is now seems like everytime I go out on a quest I get alteast one or two purple usable weapons along with about 10 other weapons, so what incentive is there to buy anything else? Other than high end high priced weapons, runes, dyes ect (which I don't really need). There's not a whole lot to really buy. Concurrently what incentive do people have to buy my things when its reletively easy for them to get themselves?

I might be playing devils advocate here, but it will eventually goes back to high end items going for insane prices.

StandardAI · Jun 19, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Inflation is created because there is an infinite supply of gold within the game. The money in the entire game will only get higher and higher due to the fact that monsters drop gold. In real life you can't simply go and kill a monster alone and get a couple hundred bucks because of it.

FelineFury · Jun 19, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

but there's little girl's cape and dwarven's ale.... That should prevent inflation.

oostdyk · Jun 20, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

Oostdyk, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, you bring about some interesting points. While I have never played L2, the shop system you mention that they set up seems overly chaotic and ineffective. Rather than having a message over your head, would it be easier to simple have a box with the item's information above your head? You would be able to select an item for sale, and that item's stats would appear in a small box over your head. Of course, you would only be able to show one item, otherwise the display would get far too crowded.

My name is hard to pronounce in english. I usually put it like this: 'Oh-sst-die-k', all sections should be seen as their respective seperate words :P

Indeed. I'm all for not even using that system. I mean, in lineage 2, the items had different names altogether. In GW, you'd have 50 people all selling a Flat Bow, with differing stats and prices... VERY confusing, on top of the way it's built.

I'd definitly suggest some sort of crowd stopper, but not one that prevents people from selling after a cap is reached. This would be a little unforgiving IMO (if that is indeed how it was to be read) But this would probably only be with the system that I myself do not really think will work.

I'm definitly all for a straight sale house, which you don't need to be online for. And a town sensitive one for selling, but a non-town sensitive one for picking up the cash from sales. This is mostly because some items are in higher supply in different area's, and having them up for sale everywhere without travel to get there, could unbalance them. However, since there is an instant travel option, there is only so much this could really do to balance it out...

Spark · Jun 20, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

But with the economy so inflated, it may become far too expensive to actually BUY weaponry, so we're better off swapping weapons. Works for both of us.

That's so wrong it's not even funny. If we can assume staff = sword, then sell your staff and use that same money to buy the sword. To say that inflation stops this trade using currency is absolutely ludicrous.

Odd Sock · Jun 20, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Is inflation really that bad ? Once you buy that +15% while hp above 50% health you dont need any other swords. So say you spend 150k on your sword and another 150 on the shield, then to look pretty buy 60k armor and spend another 100k on runes with 40k on dyes (you buy every vial and mix them all together). You've totalled 500k and never even have to buy gear again. That's also considering you havent already found the items you need to be maxed. It's really not that bad especially that when one character is pimped to the max it gets so much easier to equip your two others (that's assuming you have 2 characters). I just don't understand where the problem is, once you got your gear you're set and as for Sigils, well if you need one you should be able to win one so technically you don't even have to buy them(topics to be discussed in another post)

Divinitys Creature · Jun 20, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

WTB 230 skill points

Dax · Jun 20, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

I think the problem is, and I may be talking to deaf ears, but it is easy to say things are all ok when you hit a level that money becomes not a problem.

Personally I think the game should be challenging and I expect to butt handed to me until I earn it.

Unfortunately there are gamers who think that it's unfair low level people that have high end weapons..... because for some reason they were under the pretense that this game was not based on leveling, farming, ect ect...all about skill and crazy stuff like that. Unfortunately this is not the case.

I'm the gamer who likes PVE/ grind end of it, so I have a hard time feeling sorry for the casual pvp end of it, but I can't help to think that they sorta kinda got the short end of the stick.

TopGun · Jun 20, 2005, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spark

That's so wrong it's not even funny. If we can assume staff = sword, then sell your staff and use that same money to buy the sword. To say that inflation stops this trade using currency is absolutely ludicrous.

Okay, but no one weapon is ever equal to another, and on top of that, different players and different playstyles create a preference in weaponry. Equillibrium is nonexistant.

Sarus · Jun 20, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

I just skimmed through and didn't see it mentioned but I could have missed it so I apologize if this was already brought up.

A possible issue I see with having "afk shops" is that people will never actually log off the servers even when they aren't really playing. I doubt anet would appreciate having 75% of the total possible player base logged in at all times because 60% of them are afk in their shops trying to sell things. In other games there is a monthly fee to take care of bandwidth costs. Since GW has no monthly fee this could be a problem. Of course i have no idea what Anet's bandwidth costs are like so it might not even be an issue but it seems like it coul d be a problem.

JoDiamonds · Jun 20, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

As a possible aside, there could even be a web trading board for trading (auction house or anything else), allowing players to trade from outside the game interface.

This has technical advantages and disadvantages, including separate servers for handling the trade load. It might be nice, though.