Curse

Seth Oriath · Jun 30, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

It is waaaaay too unbalanced.

And you know this because........?

Did you test it for a week?

Have you been secretly working with Anet to get it balanced for a week?

Has it been more than a few freakin' hours since the patch?

If you can answer any of the above questions as yes, then it's your own fault for not letting Anet know. But, since I don't think you could possibly answer yes to any of those, how about this one?

Have you TRIED it for more than a few hours?

Wait, you can't answer yes to that one either.

Impatience isn't exactly a vurtue, ya know.

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Well look it it this way, I causally played a few PvP mataches and only won 3 I got 120 faction points, now as you get more the more you win I would say at the most 20 wins in the HoH to get a skill.

Now thats not bad going, 20 wins will take a good team about 1-2 hours. I think you get more for holding the HoH and a lot more for GvG. So quit moaning and see just how fast the good players get skills.

The prices are fine, it balances out with the time spent for a PvE playr to get the same things. If PvP players get these unlocks to fast then it's unbalanced and bias agianst PvE.

At the end of the day it will take the average PvE player 200-300 hours to unlokc everything for one character, maybe about 600 hours of play for everything.

Now if the PvP players get all this on say 100 hours, who gets the better deal. The PvP player wanted a definative way to get stuff without having to PvE, now they have it. They cannot expect to get everything in the first week, they ahve to at least spend some time getting the stuff to balance out against the PvE. at the end of the day some PvE players may never unlock everything, at least the PvP players know 100% they can. ANd really how often will you change your build, I would way it takes a good 1-2 hours to fully test a build, while testing you will have unlocked enough faction points to be a few more skills so you can change your build and test again.

Look at it this way what happens in PvP also has to happen in PvE, so if it takes a PvE player 600 hours to unlock everything, then the PvP has to be clsoe to that. If not it give an unfair advantage to pure PvP players. I'm sorry but this whole it's to expensive argument is just irrelivant.

It's now offcial I'm really narked at PvP players, and their I want everything and I want it now attiude, why can they no be happy with a system which give them the option to chose a skill to unlock as a pace wich matched the rest of the game. They don't have to PvE to unlock stuff. Just be happy you got this, because our PvE economy have been buggered up by PvP players, bots, and grinders. You don't see us forcefully demanding they rectify this imedeatly, yes we do moan aobut it and we say they should make change. But the arguments I see are less Me, Me, Me. and more about the entire Pve comunity adn all those players it's messed up for.

Jugalator · Jun 30, 2005, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Are we sure that it scales from 500 to 200 that way or is it vice versa to try and give lower end guilds a boost?

Also, isn't there a note about freshly made guilds recieving a faction penalty per win?

1. No, it's right, part to reward good guilds (gives guilds a goal to strive for -- improve strategies and skills), and part because they'll be matched against far harder guilds than the lower ones. If it would be to encourage low end guilds, it could get terrible, with guilds quitting every other GvG game to stay at a low ranking. They'd then need to add faction penalties and make the system more complex than now.

2. Yep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Oriath

Did you test it for a week?

Have you been secretly working with Anet to get it balanced for a week?

I've been testing it for a week and not-too-secretly worked with ArenaNet during this beta, and think Tomb rewards could be increased a bit because teams take quite a while to set up, although I'm not sure I would've liked the cost of normal skills lowered. Maybe 60 points per consecutive win instead of 40 or so. But not much more, since GvG still generally requires even more planning and detailed team strategies. You also play with a ladder ranking at stake, and you have nothing at stake in Tombs.

But things are as they are, and it's mostly details about a system that's far, far, better than what we had before (0 faction per win, everywhere). It could maybe see some polish, but on the other hand GvG'ing gives at least 200 points per win so they'll unlock skills pretty quickly, and for GW PvP, GvG provides the ultimate challenge. It's easy to find and join a friendly guild too if you're looking (you don't need to move further away than from the forums here

).

spiritofcat · Jun 30, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

This afternoon I played for just a little while, in the team arena and the random arena and earned about 260 Faction. I don't imagine that it will take all that long to build up enough to unlock something.

Kishin · Jun 30, 2005, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Oriath

And you know this because........?

Did you test it for a week?

Have you been secretly working with Anet to get it balanced for a week?

Has it been more than a few freakin' hours since the patch?

If you can answer any of the above questions as yes, then it's your own fault for not letting Anet know. But, since I don't think you could possibly answer yes to any of those, how about this one?

Have you TRIED it for more than a few hours?

Wait, you can't answer yes to that one either.

Impatience isn't exactly a vurtue, ya know.

He doesn't need to have. All he has to do is extrapolate the math, which he did. Its terribly inefficient for unlocking skills. IMO, Basic should probably be around 500, Elites around 2K.

It makes runes and weapon mods a bit easier, but the price is still somewhat prohibitive. Well, not prohibitive, so much as painful.

Look at what Divinity pointed out in terms of sheer numbers of matches and time spent playing them. Add the fact that GvG is impossible for some players, and difficult to arrange for almost all...

It adds another option to getting things done, but doesn't put a significant dent in the amount of time required.

Divinitys Creature · Jun 30, 2005, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Oriath

And you know this because........?

Did you test it for a week?

Have you been secretly working with Anet to get it balanced for a week?

Has it been more than a few freakin' hours since the patch?

If you can answer any of the above questions as yes, then it's your own fault for not letting Anet know. But, since I don't think you could possibly answer yes to any of those, how about this one?

Have you TRIED it for more than a few hours?

Wait, you can't answer yes to that one either.

Impatience isn't exactly a vurtue, ya know.

Did you have the patience to click on the link and read it? Being a PvP player of high rank I have plenty of practical experience when it comes to tombs and I have played many GvG games. Numbers matter. They help you make quantitative conclusions and prove points rather than writing an uneducated opinion and backing it up with your subjective feelings on the matter.

Kishin pretty much answered your question very well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

He doesn't need to have. All he has to do is extrapolate the math, which he did. Its terribly inefficient for unlocking skills. IMO, Basic should probably be around 500, Elites around 2K.

It makes runes and weapon mods a bit easier, but the price is still somewhat prohibitive. Well, not prohibitive, so much as painful.

Look at what Divinity pointed out in terms of sheer numbers of matches and time spent playing them. Add the fact that GvG is impossible for some players, and difficult to arrange for almost all...

It adds another option to getting things done, but doesn't put a significant dent in the amount of time required.

Yep this is quite right, and thanks for being a wise reader. Some people think time will somehow change how desperately this system needs to be tweaked, like Seth.

Red Locust · Jun 30, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

Here's what I think about the update

It is waaaaay too unbalanced.

Dude, what kind of shitty math are you doing?

Ok let's see. Let's say you go 5 consecutive tombs wins. Let's say you kill 16 different people in each tombs match (reasonable). That's 5(16*2) + 20 + 40*4 = 340 faction. Do that 3 times and you got yourself a skill point. You could totally do this in less than 3 hours.

Plus, it's not exactly grind. You grind through PvE cause you have to. You play PvP cause you enjoy it.

Fantus · Jun 30, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

So, did I get this right? My RP chars won't get any XP for killing enemies in PvP anymore? If yes, is there any reason to use a RP char for PvP anymore? The only thing you still get is the fame and nobody except you can ever see how famous you are.

Ellestar · Jun 30, 2005, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

Look at what Divinity pointed out in terms of sheer numbers of matches and time spent playing them. Add the fact that GvG is impossible for some players, and difficult to arrange for almost all...

So they should do something so to make it possible and easier to arrange instead of complaining on forums.

cyberzomby · Jun 30, 2005, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I like it. Sure it takes long if you do just arenas. But than go do guildmatches with youre guild. If youre guild doesnt do them, search one that does. If youre not on when ure guild is on, find one that plays on the same time tables. I realy like this update. And im not even such a pvp fan. ^^

Ashleigh McMahon · Jun 30, 2005, 09:32 AM // 09:32

I love the whole Idea of rewards, but you either need to recieve more faction per win, or they should reduce the prices of rewards.

Regards, Ashleigh.

goldfinger · Jun 30, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

I don't mind the numbers as much, I played Recreationally today in the competition arenas and found myself a third of the way to getting some nice jazz, no power gaming, no stressing, no hours of gameplay... although I won most of my games, I found it a great way to throw some benefit onto my kick back pvp time.

Ashleigh McMahon · Jun 30, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

I don't mind the numbers as much, I played Recreationally today in the competition arenas and found myself a third of the way to getting some nice jazz, no power gaming, no stressing, no hours of gameplay... although I won most of my games, I found it a great way to throw some benefit onto my kick back pvp time.

Sounds good.

But I still think that you should recieve more faction per win.

On average it would take 7-8hours for one basic skill.

And thats in tombs.

Regards, Ashleigh.

PieXags · Jun 30, 2005, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Christ. First they complain because they have to do a lot of PvE to unlock things.

Now they complain because they have to do a lot of PvP to unlock things.

Also lets put it this way---this update is for hardcore PvP only players primarily. If you're a "casual player" you won't NEED more than the few builds and what not to have some fun in PvP, the elites/superior runes aren't THAT important. But for higher-end PvP, they sure are.

So lets put it this way, any PvE player who's competing in the high-end PvP will have to have ascended, and to do it well they still would have had to unlock all their skills, and buy all their runes, etc.

The argument originally made by PvP players was that they had to play through a part of the game they didn't want to play, just to unlock skills/runes.

Now, when they've made it so that you can unlock them by playing your precious PvP, and nothing else, you can still unlock everything.

How about that! You get to unlock everything for high-end PvP by only doing PvP! And isn't that what you "PvP only" players enjoy?! PvP?!

Oh but NOOO. Now it's not fast enough for you. So that makes it unbalanced. Do you honestly think that any PvE players who effectively compete in high-end PvP haven't spent just as much time as you'll need to, on their PvE characters?

Christ people try it out for a week before complaining. You can use your numbers and theories all you want, it won't matter. No amount of math can show you just how many battles you'll win, how many you'll lose, how long each battle will take, how many people YOU kill, etc. So go try it out.

Ashleigh McMahon · Jun 30, 2005, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Please do not flame.

I am only saying , and many others will agree, that this game and it's phrase" experience is earned by skill, not hours playing" meens that itself.

1000 faction points has been calculated to take about 7-8hours.

Do you call that " a balanced game?"

Regards, Ashleigh.

PieXags · Jun 30, 2005, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Yeah I know. Just agitated is all. 5:15am now. Can't sleep.

And yeah, I'd call it balanced. PvE players who attend high-end PvP will have gone through just as many hours learning and preparing their PvE characters, except they'll actually be playing both portions of the game then. Not only half.

But...if you're still arguing that it's not skill, it's time played...well I fail to see how that has anything to do with this argument. The more skill you have, the faster you'll get faction points typically. And afterall, if you're that skilled, wouldn't you be able to do really good with the premade characters available to you...?

If winning PvP is THAT dependant on having all the skills and runes, then skill has absolutely nothing to do with PvP at all. You either have the skill set or you don't. If it's not all dependant on the skill set and some skill DOES matter, then why does unlocking all the skills so quickly matter?

From what I can tell, people don't want to work for things---they want it NOW. And some how, having everything really quickly will make it more skill-based...? Sorry, not if it's that dependant on having the skills in the first place.

Ellestar · Jun 30, 2005, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashleigh McMahon

Please do not flame.

I am only saying , and many others will agree, that this game and it's phrase" experience is earned by skill, not hours playing" meens that itself.

1000 faction points has been calculated to take about 7-8hours.

Do you call that " a balanced game?"

Please join a guild and get more faction points per hour by playing GvG... I mean, come on, should i tell it to every whiner on these forums? IMHO it's obvious.

PieXags · Jun 30, 2005, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Cheers Ellestar.

Seems to me doing GvG wouldn't make it take NEARLY 7-8 hours to unlock a skill. Maybe...2-3? MAYBE. Depending on the lengths of the battles, and how much you did during the battle, yeah, I'd say GvG is definately the way to go.

If you don't win your guild battles, it's the same as failing a mission or quest in PvE---no rewards, try again.

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashleigh McMahon

Sounds good.

But I still think that you should recieve more faction per win.

On average it would take 7-8hours for one basic skill.

And thats in tombs.

Regards, Ashleigh.

People have been comign out of 6 rounds with 2000 Faction, so at the most that was 1 hour, not 7-8. All i'm saying is play the HoH and keep winning for an hour and I bet you will be well on your way to your second if not third skill.

From the figures I have seen bounced around so far you can get between 1000 and 2000 faction an hour. Thats one skill per hour minimum. Now I have played PvE with one character for 200 hours I have unlocked 120 skills, and about 10% of the upgrades. So as you can see if the numbers people as saying are true you will unlock everything twice as fast as PvE. Which puts PvP at a massive advantage over PvE Players who want to casual PvP

Giving out more faction or reducing the cost would only make the gap between PvP and PvE characters larger in advancement terms.

PieXags · Jun 30, 2005, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I created a PvP character earlier today and went to the tombs, after about five rounds I had about 400 faction points. Just used some shoddy water elementalist I whipped together in a few minutes, which by the way isn't a good thing to try if you've never used an elementalist...

Took about an hour and 30 minutes.

So...where is this 7-8 hours coming from?