Curse

theclam · Jun 17, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Back to the original subject.

1. If you aren't ready, then say, "not ready." Then, if they ignore you, then they can't yell at you if you take action 2 or 3.
2. If you are not on a mission, then just walk back to town.
3. If you are on a mission, then tell the group that you weren't ready and that you're going back to town and they can reform if they want.

salja Wachi · Jun 17, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myodato

That's nice.

And it has what to do with discussing tactics before leaving town exactly ?

You point is valid, but is as relevant and appropriate as me making a post just to tell you that the first i in your post should be an I.

I disagree. my post is relevant, as he is complaining about people not listening to him and zoning before he is st ( which is very annoying to say the least), i was also pointing out that maybe his goals for his character is also a bit out of whack. trying to do too much with your character is not a good thing either so if he can learn from that it is more than relevant.

I =D

Luggage · Jun 17, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Salja: it's pretty ####ing clear that he only is the primary healer unless they get a real monk - you want the N/Mo or W/Mo to be primary healer instead?
And go take a look at the screenshot thread about doing FoW with only rangers if you think you absolutely have to primary monks for everything in the end game...

Of course 2-3 monks will make healing easier but...

But anyway thats a tangent the thread.

It doesnt happen often that people don't at least ask "ready?" but I got real pissed of at the krytan group that did while I was changin my Monk from smiter to healer so I left them with a "Next time ask if people are ready"

... tho this lesson wouldn't sting enough from other professions I guess.

salja Wachi · Jun 17, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

once again you talk in speccifics when i talk in generalities. sure you can come up with an example for every circumstance.

an all ranger team in FoW is a graet thing. I for one love rangers which is why i made my third character a primary ranger.

that being said for most end game missions you will need a primary monk.

as far as for people just running into mission or quest without at least basic discussion?

as much as i hate to say it you should just leave the group after asking them to talk a bit once you get in zone. if you still get no response just leave and find another one. there is a difference between leaving then and leaving just because either you or someone else die.

(only under those circumstances would i ever advise anyone to leave a group)

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

I disagree. my post is relevant, as he is complaining about people not listening to him and zoning before he is st ( which is very annoying to say the least), i was also pointing out that maybe his goals for his character is also a bit out of whack. trying to do too much with your character is not a good thing either so if he can learn from that it is more than relevant.

I =D

His creativity in playing his class should not be limited by your lack of imagination. There are way too many skilled players out there who make do without primary monks in the craziest situations. As a primary monk, three of my most successful pugs have been with only me as mo/xx and with no tanks. Give me a necro and a ranger and I'm happy. But nooooo all you ever hear is "rangers are gimped" and "you gotta have a tank."

A good strategy will allow creative, skilled players the ability to do almost anything in this game.

salja Wachi · Jun 17, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

lol my post does not make me "unimaginative" there are lots of ways to play a character. but you seem to zoom in on a sentence and ignore the context. (are you a liberal by chance)

anyway as far as necros and rangers go they can be in my group anytime

Silmor · Jun 17, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

E/Mo is the most obvious example where focusing on a secondary profession can really work well. Energy Storage is a great thing for a monk, offsetting the divine favor loss with a monstrous energy pool. Energy Storage itself also has energy management skills in the same way that Divine Favor does, so it's perfectly reasonable to go with an E/Mo as primary healer, and in some cases even preferable - the moment the monk hits rock bottom, his divine favor bonus from spells is gone as well, whereas the E/Mo can still keep going.

Myodato · Jun 17, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

I disagree. my post is relevant, as he is complaining about people not listening to him and zoning before he is st

Ah, my apologies. I understand completely now. It's just like the discussion I had about why sprouts were better than carrots because Father Christmas lives in Lapland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

i was also pointing out that maybe his goals for his character is also a bit out of whack.

Yes, having the goal of the adjusting tactics depending on the party you are working with is entirely out of whack.

Yabba · Jun 17, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

ok well first of all you are not a monk. you have some secondary healing spells but that is about it.

you are an ele so stay that way.

i had a nice run of 3 hours in the fissure and did a lot of the quest there with a group that had only 2 ele/monks as healers.

i had a very good pickup group some days ago (reached twice the hoh in 3 runs) with a monk and an ele/monk who did the healing.

anyone who thinks an ele/monk can´t be used as healer has no clue about what is possible in this game.

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

lol my post does not make me "unimaginative" there are lots of ways to play a character. but you seem to zoom in on a sentence and ignore the context. (are you a liberal by chance)

anyway as far as necros and rangers go they can be in my group anytime

You only had one contextually relevant sentence in your previous post, which was that, essentially, you were trying to tell him not to get his hopes up too high and outstretch his reach. Doesn't seem like I missed the context at all.

You, on the other hand, are trying to obfuscate. The sensibility of my rebuttal has nothing to do with any philosophical or political label you'd like to hang around my neck. That is... "Are you a liberal by chance" was, I assumed, a question. The answer is, "None of your business because it has no relevance to this discussion."

Moskel · Jun 17, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

[soap box]
A E/Mo is a better healer when using the proper spells, not all spells benefit greatly from Divine Favor/Divine Boon combo....

Healing Seed - costs a lot of energy, dumps out a lot of healing, really hard for a primary monk to use but E/Mo can afford to throw on on whoever draws the main agro and then still have plenty of juice left.

Spell Breaker - Expensive again, the divine bonus is meaningless pretty much and against Mursaat this spell is godly.

Glyph of Sacrifice/Rez - Sure a Mo/E can do this as well but we're looking at 10 more energy again

Ward Against Ele/Foe/Melee - 10 energy each again, sure these aren't healing and a Mo/E can do it but any Mo/E that tries to cast too many 10 energy spells is dry in a hurry (especially if you are looking at using Boon).

Protective Spirit - 10 energy again, divine bonus doesn't mean squat but what this does do is make your 'wimpy non-divine heals' do plenty, you can spam kiss and orision with PS up on somebody and keep them alive just fine.

Mo/x have their purpose but there are many cases a E/Mo may be able to provide bigger and stronger heals than a Mo/x for a longer period of time. Its all about how you play and what skills you use.
[/soap box]

Now to the OP's topic, to me it sounds like you need to find a good guild or learn to be very patient with the PUGs (perhaps just start leading your own PUGs and asking people questions when they join, if they don't answer back ---> boot!).

If you think the PUGs are bad/non-repsonsive in the PvE area just go to the random 4v4 arena for 30 minutes and see how often you can ask questions to get 0 reponse from a team of 4 people you're about to battle to the death with

Entropius · Jun 17, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

On the debate between El/Mo's and Mo/X's as healers:

Elmo's have to heal in different ways. Let's take two builds here, an El/Mo with energy storage 10, and healing prayers 12, and a Mo/* with divine favor 10 and healing prayers 12. Assume a 10 energy focus for both.

The Elmo has 70 energy; the monk has 40. That's his advantage -- a fatty energy pool.

The Mox, however, gets a free heal for 32 whenever she casts any spell on a friendly. That's her advantage.

This means that the Mo/X can focus on low-cost spells like orison, kiss, and mend condition to 1) make that energy pool last longer, and 2) get as much benefit from favor as possible. This is time-intensive, of course, because you have to stand there casting all day.

The Elmo healer, in turn, usually focuses on high-energy spells: heal other, healing breeze, healing seed, and heal party. Heal other heals 150 and actually casts faster than the Mo/X's orison (92); heal party can heal up to 536 points (!).

In the hypothetical scenario with an entire party getting pounded, I'd almost rather have the only healer be an El/Mo. That's when you slap a Seed on someone and absolutely spam heal party (and glyph of lesser energy); an Elmo can keep this up longer than a primary monk, and do almost as much per spell -- since heal party doesn't get divine favor.

For mid-term (15-20 sec) burst healing on a single tank getting clobbered, again the El/Mo has the advantage with the large energy pool, since he can spam heal other on them and not run out of juice.

However, eventually the Elmo will exhaust his pool, just like the monk will, and will be stuck with the same 1.33 energy per sec as the monk. In that case the monk is better off, since her healing -- especially the 5-energy spells that she'll be casting mostly -- is more mana-efficient.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages as a healing class. In a group with a primary monk, I'll usually prepare more nukes, and spend most of my energy on them -- letting the monk do the bulk of the healing, since (in PUG's) monks get yelled at if they don't heal. Because of this they'll bring healing--may as well let them do what they're good at, and let me use my pool on nukes.

However, the discussion (*glares at second poster*) wasn't about party composition; it's about, once you have a party together, organizing everyone to use their skills most effectively. In a group of eight:

W/Mo
R/N
Me/E
Me/Mo
W/R
E/Mo
N/W
E/N

There's no monk primary, for whatever reason. Who do you think is going to be the one slinging the heals?

Right. It's the E/Mo.

I'm grumbling that people don't sit for a minute in town and discuss this, let everyone get their skills sorted out, make sure there aren't redundant skills (don't need two people with mend condition or wards or well or breeze), and figure out who's doing what before leaving.

Edit: I'm a new-ish player -- just hit 20, working on the Maguuma missions. I'm going to try out a new healing build: put life bond on everyone, put balthazar's spirit on me (so I get energy whenever anyone gets hit), and use that energy income to spam heals, with a few low-energy exhaustion nukes like meteor (don't have chain). Thoughts?

Ninna · Jun 17, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

no question that monks are the best healers in game

but that doesnt mean you cannot improvise with other combinations for healing with no primary monk

Dralon · Jun 17, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

i whole heartedly agree that as a back up they are good.

however if you read his post he clearly states that he is a "primary healer" sometimes.

I am pointing out that this is not a good idea.

not arrogance at all just fact.

en El/Mo as a primary healer in later missions is not a good idea.

read the entire post.

I think it was Star Wars that mentioned ..."many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" In his experience and many others secondary monks can function well as primary healers. They don't plan on replacing monks as healers all the time, but can do the job even in high end missions if the team is smart. Your total discount of this is not a fact, simply your point of view.

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

Edit: I'm a new-ish player -- just hit 20, working on the Maguuma missions. I'm going to try out a new healing build: put life bond on everyone, put balthazar's spirit on me (so I get energy whenever anyone gets hit), and use that energy income to spam heals, with a few low-energy exhaustion nukes like meteor (don't have chain). Thoughts?

Thoughts?

A.) I am pretty sure you'll like the results.

B.) Hope I get to run into you doing the Maguuma missions.

Best of luck to you and try my "MY SKILL BAR IS EMPTY DON'T MOVE" thing.

Morat · Jun 17, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nokomis

Have a..what is that long word...strategy? Boh-ring. No way, dude, the only way to play this game is to rush into every mission and then charge everything that shows up as a red dot full-throttle. Cuz I am UBER!!! I OWN u!!! I love this game OMFG!!! So I am gonna kill everything and ignore whatever you say. Talk is boh-ring.

Once I am dead, I can swear at the monks, draw naughty bits on the map, and type lots of letters like OMFG over and over, which is just super-fun! Oh, and then I can just walk away from the keyboard and go look at the pictures in a magazine (cuz I can't read, OMFG) and pick my nose and boy, is THAT fun!

And BTW OMFG if u say anything bad about this game you are so gay. OMFG this game RULEZ. I own U!! Wanna go draw penises now?

LOL

Nokomis

hahahah the W/Mo creed!

rocinantae · Jun 17, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

not being rude my friend. just telling him in a direct way to stick with his primary. a secondary monk is not a healer.

he can heal himself and maybe some others for a short time, but he is not a healer. people need to stay within their abilities and not try to do things their character is not built to do

my advice to him if he wants to be a monk is to make another character as a monk primary. then he can heal aqway to his hearts content

Umm i'd disagree. A ele/Mk is a good healer with lots of energy. In fact I'd prefer that to the usual primary monks I have seen. And primary mk are a lot harder to find sometimes. Maybe if parties didnt rush ahead like retards all the time it wouldnt matter if he was priamry mk or not.

Mimi Miyagi · Jun 17, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I'm going to interject something here while everyone else is busy flaming each other.

I spend about half of my time creating groups since it appears to be so hard for people to do it on their own. When I create a group, depending on what my current character is (I have three different ones) I will search for a monk early and often. I will not take a secondary monk as a primary, and I refuse to take henches unless it's absolutely neccessary. When I take a player, I take them based on their PRIMARY skill. Secondary healing, for example, is of little concern. Why? Because I've been in far more parties that fail to get a monk, and get completely wasted fairly easily.

So, if you get selected in a group, looking for that one last player to fill out the team before heading out - they selected you because you're an AOE elementalist who can trash mobs and deal with hard to reach monsters. The team leader quite possibly is just assuming that's what you're going to be set up for. It's your job. If the party leader is concerned about getting another healer, he'd ASK you.

I'd suggest setting up your PVE character in town to be a AOE character - and if the group WANTS you to be a healer, then he should be asking you to do so before going out. You can change it then.

Again, when in town, groups are formed based on primary skills - lack of monks in some areas and instances means that concessions are made. If you're in town, and there are three groups all spamming "need monk" for ten minutes, THEN open up a dialog with one of the group leaders and ASK him before you join if you being set up more as a healer is acceptable. Groups usually have been sitting around for 10-20 minutes waiting for the party to go, iron out your role BEFORE you join, or assume you're in the group for a reason - your primary skill.

Lovag · Jun 17, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

Anyway, recently I've taken to saying, "PLEASE DO NOT ZONE INTO THE INSTANCE YET--MY SKILL BAR IS EMPTY," which worked fine... people were waiting for me to get my skillbar so it gave me a chance to ask questions while I had their undivided attention.

If I see this I just hit the kick command

Mimi Miyagi · Jun 17, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

[soap box]
A E/Mo is a better healer when using the proper spells, not all spells benefit greatly from Divine Favor/Divine Boon combo....

Healing Seed - costs a lot of energy, dumps out a lot of healing, really hard for a primary monk to use but E/Mo can afford to throw on on whoever draws the main agro and then still have plenty of juice left.

A lot of people claim that spells like Aegis or whatever are the best skills for a monk - yet (IMO) healing seed is by far the best. If done properly, a healing seed on a well coordinated group of fighters makes them nearly invincible. As the lone fighter I've waded into the middle of a dozen monsters and lived simply because of that one skill. I've been the lone healer in a party up in the ring of fire, etc, and have done just fine, with healing seed, healing breeze, word of healing, dwana's kiss, etc. With the proper gear a good monk can keep a seed on a fighter group almost indefinitely.

The BAD part about healing seed is that it is dependent on your healing attribute, and isn't useful at all by secondary professions, and thus it's overlooked too much. Without a high healing attribute, it runs out way too fast, and it takes too long to recharge. But in a monk's hands, it's an essential part of their arsenal of healing skills.

So, yes, for a secondary monk, it's not useful, but for a primary monk it will heal better than any secondary monk's skill. Period.