Curse

Warlord Teriel · Jun 11, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

ok ill break it down for you since you dont get it,

Lets say 100 people buy GW.
Anet makes money this day

If after 1 month 100 people still play.
Anet is losing money because no monthly fee + they pay to keep servers going + they pay devs + they pay employee's + advertising + more!

After buying the game clients pay NOTHING forever!

Now lets look at how Anet can save or make more money...

1. Make Money - Release an expansion.
2. Make Money - Keep more people buying the game by promoting that they update it. Try to keep it free of Bots.
3. Save Money - Lose 40% of the current people who play but bring them back with an expansion. Why? So instead of paying for 10 servers + for bandwidth + for electricity you only have to pay for 6 servers, 60% of your electricity, 60% of your bandwidth.

Lets answer number 2 and 3 in 1 solution. Make it impossible to farm. Bye bye bots, bye bye legit farmers that play 8+ hours a day with nothing else left to do.. see you next expansion.

Lets face it there is a strategy behind every product on the market to make more money and to save money. Thats what businesses do. Anet IS a business. They don't care if you play it after you buy the game as long as you buy the game and buy the next expansion. Its hard to pull of getting people to buy it and wanting the next expansion while also saving as much money as they can in between... which is what they are doing. Keep in mind they have to keep the illusion of caring to make people want the expansion.

Phantom Force · Jun 11, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

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Originally Posted by BrokenSymmetry

What about: Playing another game, doing something useful in real life like studying, finding a job/girlfriend, etc. Guild Wars is meant to be enjoyed by gamers who want to have fun for 1/2/3 hours every day, a few times a week, or even once every few weeks. It's not meant to be a way of life, or a substitute for a job or even life.
Most non-MMORPG computer and console games typically take 10-20 hours, and are consumed over a period of 1-4 weeks in 1-hour sessions. That's healthy and enjoyable gaming to me. But somehow MMORPG's (which Guild Wars even isn't) are expected to last forever by people who want to play 10+ hours day. My suggestion is: Limit your Guild Wars playing to 2 hours a day, and you can have fun with it for a few months at least, just playing the game as it is.

Hmm lets see. Have a real life job unlike those who play 24/7. Have a wife, which I would safely bet at least 50% of people play don't. Have a job. Yes I usually play 2-3 hours a day maybe, except if my wife works then maybe a little more. Guild Wars is an MMORPG/CORPG whichever you'd prefer. Either way these types of games are SUPPOSE to last quite some time. I do not think the game is horrible, but people do not listen to my point. Things all work together. If you eliminate some then things will fall apart. Examples AC2 and SWG nerf'd skills and lost a lot customers before they even had expansions out. Nerfing stuff cause it so people couldn't do the things they wanted. Aside from nerfing effecting solo play to farm for an item you wanted, it effected the game play which upset people. Anet doesn't nerf skills they just nerf mobs to prevent farming. This still does not provide the solution that what if I want 15k armor? Hmm... Options to obtain money for that and/or superior rune I can't find through normal game play to unlock. Lets see for gold I could be one of the idiots who blow RL money for in game money (not an option my money is far more important). So how else do I get the money? Between 3 characters I've leveled to nearly 20 so far w/o farming I've accumulated about 20k gold. Spent the gold I've made to upgrade armor at critical times, and purchased skills/capture signets to get skills. And I'm a pack rat so I keep everything that drops for me to sell.
Now what about runes? I've met at least 10 people who haven't even unlocked 1 superior rune (including myself). This means we could buy one but don't have gold, can't find one because we can't farm, and if we did buy it still isn't unlocked. Guess I'll complain to Anet that since reducing grind was a viable option and considering UAS they might as well UAI (unlock all items) too for PvE + PvP. Point is if you can't find what you want you farm for it, but people don't realize most farmers aren't religious. Nuff said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warlord Teriel

Lets answer number 2 and 3 in 1 solution. Make it impossible to farm. Bye bye bots, bye bye legit farmers that play 8+ hours a day with nothing else left to do.. see you next expansion.

Lets face it there is a strategy behind every product on the market to make more money and to save money. Thats what businesses do. Anet IS a business. They don't care if you play it after you buy the game as long as you buy the game and buy the next expansion. Its hard to pull of getting people to buy it and wanting the next expansion while also saving as much money as they can in between... which is what they are doing. Keep in mind they have to keep the illusion of caring to make people want the expansion.

Point I was making before is that people will leave game because they are upset. If you leave a game because it's going in wrong direction, take things away people like to do, take things away that keep people playing, they will lose money not gain money. They will NOT buy expansion and will take their business else where. Games survivability depend on PvE and PvP. PvE has nothing for you to do other than complete game (once is enough), unlock skills (most have already done with 2 characters or been rushed through to do), and then what help a buddy for awhile. I dont think Anet should have farming where you get 15 gold items because you could kill 20 golems. But gimme a break they nerf'd drop rates and nerf'd monsters. Those who already farmed for stuff before nerfs have more gold than they need (people always complaining about gold sinks), and have found majority of items (maybe not all) that they need or wanted. So how does this help those still arriving to the game or those who didn't rush through to get 20, farm for item unlocking, and get skills asap to get items they need. It doesn't. Fixing the drop rate was a good idea, I only ask that they make farming possible not impossible.

Chev of Hardass · Jun 11, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Don't lie to yourself. You're not a normal player. Least of all, you're not a PvPer in the slightest. Don't try and convince us that "farming is fun" so that we'll enjoy the game when it's clearly contrary to every PvPer's oppinion.

Oh here is comes, the name calling.

Why don't you direct your statements at who they were intended, or are you just here to insult everyone without cause?

Studio Ghibli · Jun 11, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

.. Weezer Blue,

I don't think anyone is trying to convince you that "farming is fun." Rather, what I figure someone--and what I've been saying--is that I LIKE TO FARM. I ENJOY FARMING. And in the same way I don't like football or knitting or teaching advanced calculus, I don't expect others to like what I think is fun.

I like to farm.

I like item-finding.

I like to find goodies.

I don't expect everyone else to like what I like.

I'm just saying. I'm tired of people writing off the farmers as these kind of sub-human robot-things who farm because THEY JUST HAVE TO GET THE EDGE IN PVP and are horrible players and are ruining the game and since they're so awful we shouldn't give them even one iota of respect.

Last time I checked, I bought this game to enjoy it, too.

- edit -

And for everyone suggesting that it's aNet's plot to scare some of us off in order to save money, they actuall stand to lose customer-base by the negative reports those people hand out.

If they have one-hundred people, if forty of those leave, while aNet initially saves some money there, they'll have sixty people going, "Hey, it's good/all right game," and forty people going "HOMG ANET *****S."

Now, increase those numbers to be more representative of the population, and take into account the tendency for people to acknowledge the negative while ignoring the good..

If aNet wants to stay profitable, they not only have to pander to their current customer base, but do everything possible to maintain their positive look.

Galatea · Jun 11, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

I wanted to avoid posting in this thread, and have kept my comments to myself or have talked about them with guild members, but I felt I should speak my mind, so here goes:

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I agree that farming should be available and not required. However, we should all keep in mind that this is still a game in development and is only 2 months old. At 3 updates since I joined only 3 or 4 weeks ago, I'd say that we can expect the next 6 months or so (till the expansion) to be regularly tweaked...

Good point, DrSLUGFly -- they shouldn't totally remove farming from the game, but it shouldn't have to feel like a necessity. Players aren't REQUIRED to spend hours and hours farming items/gold. Unlockable items should definitely be available through regular game play, without needing to farm for them. Not everyone farms to unlock items for PvP. Some farm just for the gold, so they can afford things that other players are lucky to find. Most of the things I find are for warriors and necromancers, and occasionally some wands and staffs. I never find good things for my Elementalist, but other people have great max damage staffs that I eye, or runes other than minor air (I find a million of these).

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Normal players cant farm so therefore its unfair!
A: This is untrue as well. I am a normal player and I farm maybe 30 mins a day jsut to get enough gold to get by to buy armor and dyes, materials etc. I find farming much more enjoyable than doing some crazy quest sometimes.

I agree - even farming stuff that doesn't drop super cool unid'ed armors, just to get gold to buy materials, dyes, etc.. isn't so bad. Dyes, 15K armor.. don't even affect the stats, and doesn't give one player an advantage over another player. They're little rewards to blow your money on, and if people want them, why shouldn't they be allowed to work for them? As boring as farming can be, I have to admit I do get a kick out of seeing Inferno do 200 damage on a monster, and I definitely enjoy having the gold to spend on dye.

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How true! I have not even had the guts to go try any of the dwarven ale because I need all the gold I have in order to get just one piece of 15k armor.

Yeah, I spent over 5K on Dwarven Ale so my guild members and I could have a fun party at the Guild Hall while we promoted someone to officer. But now, I need to hang onto what's left, because I still want to buy my 15K armor, and need to buy runes to spice them up.

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Inflation is inevitable. Gold sinks solve inflation. I believe with the proper gold sinks that farming will be a tolerable part of the game.

YES! Very simply put, and very true. We basically just need the NECESSITIES (armor, runes) to be affordable for all players -- and the fancy shmancy not-so-necessary items to act as gold sinks.

Example, a good max damage fire staff with energy +12, skill recharge & skill casting time improved might go for a large amount of money. However, you don't HAVE to buy a fire staff -- you could buy/find a wand with skill recharge, and buy/find an offhand item with energy+12 and skill casting improvement, and it would be EXACTLY THE SAME. There will be those who will want to spend the extra money on a staff because it is one less space in the inventory taken up and because they might like the look of a staff better than a wand.

Another example, the infamous Fiery Dragon Sword -- so what, it's not like it does +50 more damage than any other sword? You don't HAVE to have it - you'll be fine with your regular sword; the fiery one should cost more for its cosmetics.

I'm hoping runes will continue to drop in price, and that they will drop more frequently, so that the prices won't be outrageously high. However, ANet should introduce more gold sinks. We've got 15K fancy armor with same stats, 50gold per character to share storage, 1K fee to enter UW/Fissue, and Dwarven Ale to get drunk. We've also got those cosmetic items like staffs, fiery swords, and chaos axes. Simply introduce more items that don't boost stats, but are comstic or for fun, and you'll have a good way to destroy the gold as easily as it is coming in. These items will be needed eventually ANYWAY - because even through regular gameplay, people will be collecting gold, and eventually everyone will be rich. We need to waste our gold on something.

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Gah, you guys act like they killed farming.

Actually, they've made it really difficult to farm. Drop rates have changed, enemies have been relocated or replaced, and random trees have been placed to block pathways people used on their runs. Some enemies apparently also are stronger, hit harder, and have better defense: lightning drakes, for example. Now, I tried killing them on a mission with my Elementalist before - I would take on 2, and each time, I almost died. I can't imagine how difficult/impossible they are for me to kill now. Yes, they have made it more difficult to farm, but now these enemies are difficult for the quests/missions, as well. How exactly does making it harder to attain drops & kill monsters help the casual player?

This patch not only made changes to farming, but just in general the ways of spending & buying money. Runes for example are now being sold at somewhat reasonable prices by the trader (100-200 gold for minors is reasonable, 100 platinum for a superior vigor is not lol). I'm fine with that, I'll spend a couple platinum bars here and there to buy some nice runes for my character. But what happens when I want to buy something else? Hm, well I could sell some runes back to the trader to earn money, right? Not so -- not when he only wants 29 gold for my major runes. -_-;;

And generally, it's difficult to make money now, with the changes that have been made. Only three or four of my guild members farm for gold. The other 15+ guild members are poor and still find gold to be valuable. To them, 5K is a lot of money. We often assist the other members financially be supplying them with gold to buy weapons, armor, and runes. Lately though, we've had to conserve the gold for ourselves. A friend of mine paid the 75K for our guild hall, plus bought his 15k armor and all the runes he wanted -- now his second character is poor, and I am always offering to lend gold because he can't make money fast enough through regular playing. He's tried to farm with his new character, but it's too difficult to do.

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How can someone say that having +3 to an attribute, +1 to the rest, almost the same health (sup vigor), energy steal on hit and 20% longer enchantments is fair? Then there's the fact that people who have lots of skills unlocked can base their character around what the group needs, rather than having to find a group that needs their character.

Farming isn't a cheat though. The +3 attribute, the 20% enchantment, are all available as part of the game through random drops. It is not like a player went into the source code of the game and tweaked it so that only their character owned those items. Using bots and external programs is cheating. Spending your free time to gather items and gold is not cheating.

And over the course of time, any casual player could unlock all the skills, runes, and modifiers. But does someone honestly NEED to unlock all skills, runes, and modifiers? No. It is a choice a person makes to satisfy themselves. I would like to one day have all the skills unlocked -- I don't want it so bad that I am farming to unlock, but I know that as I continue to play the game, it is possible.

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I realize the game is supposed to be "fun", but everyone has their own definition of it.

For me, fun is getting a good party and completing missions, as well as being able to afford cool things like 15K armor and large amounts of Dwarven Ale to share with my guild members. If I can make the money to do this in a matter of an hour or less, then yay! Having to spend over a week through 'regular gameplay' (not farming, not exploring, only selling the drops I find on quests & missions, not playing the materials market, not going to the uw/fissue, not having the luck of finding super awesome weapons that people want to shell 50k for), not so fun. People seem to complain about the disadvantage that farming has over casual players, using the "player skill over time" argument. But let's make things clear -- It is NOT impossible to afford things like 15K armor or novelty items through regular gameplay. It is also NOT REQUIRED to have these things. Through regular gameplay, anyone can afford these gold sinks. Farming just assists those who are impatient and want to enjoy the fun novelty items right away.

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- First off, are the people who are saying "Don't want to do mind numbingly repetetive grind just to get a few items" after the items themselves or the money they'll get from selling them.

I think there are both kinds of people. Some are farming for gold, so they can afford items they DO want. Others are taking a gamble, to find the item they want themselves.

What is the difference between spending 30 minutse farming for an item you want, and spending 30 minutes spamming "WTB < ITEM>" in trade chat, to purchase it from someone else who found it?

Quote:

- Second, lets ask the farmers how long they have to farm to aquire.. a major rune.. 5K.. a superior rune? Because if the people who DO farm, come across a few of these quite quickly (lets say 15 minutes), then I suggest there's not much problem for OTHERS to go do the same thing if they want the same rewards.

I can't answer this question - because I don't farm to acquire runes. However, I farm to earn money to buy things I want. With that said, if I was poor and wanted 1k to buy a few dwarven ales, without any hardcore farming builds and just with my simple quest/mission build, I could probably earn the 1 platinum in a matter of minutes -- simply by going out and killing some monsters for a while (whether it be a "run" or through means of exploring), and selling everything I find back to the merchant.

I'll also say - in the entire amount of time I have played the game, whether with a "farm build" or a regular character, I have never EVER ever found a Superior Vigor, let alone a rune I actually want. Nor have I ever found a staff I'm actually happy with, or modifiers for weapons I use.

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It really doesn't make that much of a difference. If you are good, your are good no matter what you are wearing or what your opponent is wearing. There are plenty of people who get trashed in PvP even with Sup Vigors/Absorption, Zealout grips, etc. That extra 50 health from the sup vigor will definitely help, but its not going to decide anything in terms of the eventual outcome in a PvP match.

Thank you very much for putting that into words. I think most people have the mindset that you must own the best of everything to be the best of everything. This game was advertised as player skill over time, and it is just that. I know people who have the super best items, and I still see them die in battle. I, myself, don't even use a max damage weapon, nor have I unlocked all the skills I want, and I have managed to do some good damage and survive.

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Okay, let's say the farmer uses his time (which is greater than the casual gamer's) to improve on his PvP playing. Heaven forbid practicing PvP is an unfair advantage!

I don't know if that was meant to be funny, but I laughed at the bare honesty of it.

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I've written.. a lot, so I think I'll just end with where my guild members stand at this moment, as a result of all the changes that have been made:

- the poor guild members don't play so much because they can't raise the money for armor to pve efficiently / want to pvp but don't like how long it takes to unlock stuff
- the rich guild members either spent their money and are poor now / are hanging onto their money because once it's gone, it's difficult to earn more now / are wishing there were more gold sinks to splurge on
- we haven't done a lot of pvp or any gvg because some aren't ready to pvp or want to pve still
- a lot of guild members are taking a break away from the game b/c they are unhappy with the current situation

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In addition, here is what I suggest:
- increase drops & don't make it so hard to get them (this will lower prices, increase supply, and no one will have unfair advantages over each other)
- allow us to sell 'rare' items like major runes for reasonable amounts of money (more than 29 gold)
- implement more gold sinks for the rich players to splurge on
- allow pvp players the benefit to unlock skills/runes/etc through pvp. pve players aren't really forced to pvp, so equally, pvp shouldn't be forced to pve.

Dax · Jun 11, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I keep hearing that PvP is all about skill. In many FPS style games skill means that while everyone has the big guns you can win with a dagger.

...but anyways Studio Gigli I hear ya. The game has alot of different players who get different things out of this game. I though it was pretty cool they made it so you can either play PvP only, and give you a lvl20 character or you can take the time and do the RP adventure. It still boggle me that people think that farming is cheating but whatever...

Chev of Hardass · Jun 11, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

It still boggle me that people think that farming is cheating but whatever...

Baaa, farming? Cheating? There is no way a person could say that is the deal.

Until the update.

Until then everyone had access to farming. Now, there is "no" farming?

I guess you could ponder if the Devs farmed all their runes, items, and money, and are now trying to cut it off for everyone else. That would be more realistic than calling farming cheating.

Tuna · Jun 11, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatea

Thank you very much for putting that into words. I think most people have the mindset that you must own the best of everything to be the best of everything. This game was advertised as player skill over time, and it is just that. I know people who have the super best items, and I still see them die in battle. I, myself, don't even use a max damage weapon, nor have I unlocked all the skills I want, and I have managed to do some good damage and survive.

You don't necassarily need the best of everything to be the best of everything, but it certainly helps. Not having that superior rune and perfect hale staff head is just another way of gimping a character. Skills provide versatality which is absoultely crucial to this game. Was it otherwise everyone would use the premaded characters in PvP. Its absolutely true that you can 'do some good damage and survive' but some of us are looking to more than 'good damage and surive.' A character with minor runes vs a char with major runes is like using a MP5 with no body armor vs a M4A1 with full armor + helmet + grenades in Counter Strike. Sure, the guy with the MP5 can win, but everyone wants the M4 anyway.

Galatea · Jun 11, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Tuna, I see your point. But even so, it's not like the best items in the game are impossible to come by. There are only a few items that people seem to be struggling to attain, one of which is the Superior Rune of Vigor. Currently, supply does not mean demand. Increase supply, and soon they won't cost 100 platinum.

Tuna · Jun 11, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatea

Tuna, I see your point. But even so, it's not like the best items in the game are impossible to come by. There are only a few items that people seem to be struggling to attain, one of which is the Superior Rune of Vigor. Currently, supply does not mean demand. Increase supply, and soon they won't cost 100 platinum.

This is exactly the problem, by nerfing the farming spots the drastically cut supply. If they don't change anything the problem will only get worse. Superior vigor is most notable because every character should have one, but unlocked superior runes in general is a problem.

MadeInChina · Jun 11, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

And the newb arrives...

So what exactly is farming again?

ManadartheHealer · Jun 11, 2005, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Killing monsters for loot and gold (and sometimes XP)

eA-Zaku · Jun 11, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

It is repeatedly killing monsters in certain areas, and then reloading and doing the same thing. If you find a good way/area to do this, you net money and items way faster than playing "normally."

I do not know if ANet came out and said "we never intended you guys to farm," but I'm assuming they didn't. Thus, I'm going to say, there's nothing bad about farming, unless you're someone who does not have much spare time or find farming boring.

If that is the case, let it be. Deal with it. Stop hating on farmers just because they have more spare time and are willing to go through the monotony. In reality, someone said it may be fun to farm, and I agree. Farming is just another play-style. To me, it is just as legit as doing all quests/missions. However, it simply yields a higher profit and some find it boring. There is nothing inherently wrong with farming. Farming causes inflation? No, greedy players cause inflation.

Wrain Nightshade · Jun 12, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

sorry if this point has been made already, i don't feel like reading this thread.

i see a lot of people saying that the devs don't want you to farm, they want you to play the game, and farming isn't the way they want you to play the game and stuff like that. well, tell me this... why the hell did the devs put armor in the game that costs 15k a piece and how the hell do you make 60-75k without farming?!?! next, show me someone that has done it without farming.

there isn't enough rewards from quests and missions and loot just from doing the quests and missions to get that amount of money by the end of the game WITHOUT farming.

eA-Zaku · Jun 12, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Unless you get lucky and find a Superior Vigor on a mission.

Ensign · Jun 12, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

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Originally Posted by Wrain Nightshade

how the hell do you make 60-75k without farming?!?!

Win in the Hall of Heroes and sell a sigil, or get a lucky drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrain Nightshade

next, show me someone that has done it without farming.

*raises hand*

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Originally Posted by Wrain Nightshade

there isn't enough rewards from quests and missions and loot just from doing the quests and missions to get that amount of money by the end of the game WITHOUT farming.

That's why it's a vanity item. If everyone had 100 plat laying around we wouldn't have this conversation. 15k and particularly fissure armors are functionally identical but 'sexier' armors for people to blow their savings upon. If you're not rolling in cash, don't bother, there are better places to spend cash.

Peace,
-CxE

Galatea · Jun 12, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrain Nightshade

sorry if this point has been made already, i don't feel like reading this thread.

i see a lot of people saying that the devs don't want you to farm, they want you to play the game, and farming isn't the way they want you to play the game and stuff like that. well, tell me this... why the hell did the devs put armor in the game that costs 15k a piece and how the hell do you make 60-75k without farming?!?! next, show me someone that has done it without farming.

there isn't enough rewards from quests and missions and loot just from doing the quests and missions to get that amount of money by the end of the game WITHOUT farming.

Well -- the 15k armor isn't a necessity. No one needs to buy 15k armor. People just WANT to buy the 15k armor for cosmetic appearance and bragging rights. It has exactly the same stats as the 1.5k armor, and you can definitely make 6-8k through regular means.

Why create the 15k armor? To satisfy those players that want to have something that looks a little more fancy shmancy. And, as a reward to those perhaps who have played the game through more than one character and racked up enough extra cash after buying the stuff they needed.

With that said - I had 30 or 35k before I started farming (because this is when I found out about the 15k armor, and wanted to have my own set). I also went to Fissue one day with a group to check it out and do some quests (5000-10000XP FOR QUESTS! My jaw dropped.). On my first visit there, I walked out with a Chaos Axe, two Shadow Shields, and a couple of items which were safe to sell to a merchant. I announced I had a Chaos Axe for sale in the trade chat, thinking it would go for about 6-10k -- I was wrong, it went for 45k. I didn't spend hours farming away for it. I went down for some fun and exp (for skill points! yay!), and got something lucky out of it. I wasn't even in the Fissure of Woe very long (was still working on the first quest) when I got that Chaos Axe.

So -- it is possible to earn the money for 15k armor without farming. It's not fast money right away, but it's steady money, so it's definitely possible. Especially if a player chooses to always get Collector's Armor, rather than getting armor crafted, then they save money as they go through the game.

Dyeeo · Jun 12, 2005, 02:30 AM // 02:30

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With that said - I had 30 or 35k before I started farming (because this is when I found out about the 15k armor, and wanted to have my own set). I also went to Fissue one day with a group to check it out and do some quests (5000-10000XP FOR QUESTS! My jaw dropped.). On my first visit there, I walked out with a Chaos Axe, two Shadow Shields, and a couple of items which were safe to sell to a merchant. I announced I had a Chaos Axe for sale in the trade chat, thinking it would go for about 6-10k -- I was wrong, it went for 45k. I didn't spend hours farming away for it. I went down for some fun and exp (for skill points! yay!), and got something lucky out of it. I wasn't even in the Fissure of Woe very long (was still working on the first quest) when I got that Chaos Axe.

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Win in the Hall of Heroes and sell a sigil, or get a lucky drop.

Well guess what, those people who bought those from you farmed to get that amount of money.

eA-Zaku · Jun 12, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

You're right. If someone, somewhere hadn't farmed, I doubt there'd be enough collective money for more than a few guilds to own a hall.

Galatea · Jun 12, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Considering how new this game is, most likely yes, those people did farm to afford these things. But even beforehand, I said I had around 30k before I even started farming - any player trades that I had been a part of were under 4k, which is an amount attainable through regular means.