Curse

drizzt134 · Jul 14, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

But - if I want to (need to?) go out and farm so I can get my next set of armor in PvE - who is my "greed" harming? I'm not taking from anyone else - I'm not ripping anyone off or deprivign them - and I'm not trying to 1-up them. I'm just trying to play the game.... Again - I despise farming - but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. I also hate mesmer-type monsters - but that doesn't mean I shoudl give up as soon as I see them, does it?

simple answer: you hurt me AND every1 else. not directly but by screwing the economy little by little (and think 1000 ppl do the same thing) u gradually start to affect prices. Therefore my answer is YES, YOUR GREED HARMS PEOPLE...

PS. Dont take it personally I say it loud and general bcz u are not the onyl person that thinks that way...

hydrak · Jul 14, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by funbun

Because some of us don't want to play through the game 4 times through just to start a new characxter. Not everyone is interested in PvE. they want PvP. Not everyone in intersted in playing the game. They want tot make 100k on 4 characters each.

Then they should go play PvP, you can unlock everything by PvPing.

funbun · Jul 14, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by King's Spectre

First: Hello!

Second: A few thoughts.

1) I think that's it's been clear all along that GW is about PvP. I think that ANet should be (and is) doing everything possible to make PvP an enjoyable experience for all.

2) Everything that's needed in the game (PvE at least) is provided without much grind. I could probably sell those crafter swords for 30k a pop - if they weren't crafter swords. You can often recognize a no-nonsense RPG player by the crafter armor and weapons. Although not needed, runes are the exception to this.

3) Most of the grinding / money changing is simply to look different. My character may look "teh win" but he'll as likely to get his butt kicked in PvP or PvE as the guy in the crafter gear (maybe more so - HE probably spent his "toy" money on rune upgrades). Anet encourages this kind of thing with super high priced armor and the suggestion of future visual character enhancements.

4) What I fail to see is why a good PvP system, grindless PvE, and Farming can't get along. Solo farming is just another aspect of the game than many people find relaxing and enjoyable. I just don't understand why it is vilified so.

What about farming hurts PvP? A guy shows up in a match in the best looking armor - you should rejoice: he's been wasting is time any money on farming, not practicing.

How does farming hurt PvE? With minimal grinding the game has provided you what you need, when you needed it. Runes are expensive, but at least you can get them. You can smile and pat the pommel of your crafter sword every time you see a "WTS: Max Fellbade, 11% > 50%, 60k" message.

Dude are you awake?

1. Well. it aint working. I don't care how hard they are trying IT AINT WORKING!

2. ??? I played through the game as a Monk an NEVER got a decent monk weapon. I had to buy them all. I've got one Uber monk weapon that I farmed for.

3. Ther fore the need to make money. If they encourage high priced armor then we need ways to make money to buy it. They nerfed the good ways. The on way to make decent money now is to build up a W/Mo and make Drankor'sFoirge runs.

4. THEY ADVERTIZED NO FARMING.GRINDING. THEY LIED. Now we have to farm. They should keep to their word or at least tell us their position. either way they should tell us.

Damon Windwalker · Jul 14, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by drizzt134

simple answer: you hurt me AND every1 else. not directly but by screwing the economy little by little (and think 1000 ppl do the same thing) u gradually start to affect prices. Therefore my answer is YES, YOUR GREED HARMS PEOPLE...

But it doesn't. And apparently you don't unhderstand that.

The cost of a suit of armor does not vary. Whether mosters are dropping 5k each, or if I only find 5 gold per day - the cost of a suit of armor does not change.

So - if I purchase my armor strictly with money from farming, and use materials salvaged only from farming, I am not altering the economy in any way.

funbun · Jul 14, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

Then they should go play PvP, you can unlock everything by PvPing.

It's a grind. 1000-1500 faction to unlock basics skills and weapons. Do you know how many Arena battle that equals? Its a grind. They advertized NO GRIND. They lied.

Algren Cole · Jul 14, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

But it doesn't. And apparently you don't unhderstand that.

The cost of a suit of armor does not vary. Whether mosters are dropping 5k each, or if I only find 5 gold per day - the cost of a suit of armor does not change.

So - if I purchase my armor strictly with money from farming, and use materials salvaged only from farming, I am not altering the economy in any way.

the armor acts as a gold sink...yes you get something for it...but if the economy was stable....and items were being sold for reasonable prices due to the fact that gold was harder to get....armor would be cheaper.

hydrak · Jul 14, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borealis

So if theres no such thing as a "nerf" please explain what happened to the divinity coast barrel. Wait, let me guess.....magic little elves came and took all the good loot it used to drop, or maybe the oakhearts and tengus are raiding it while nobodys looking. How about seekers passage, granted it was full of bots which I don't approve of, but still it was a n e r f.

Just a few examples of nerfs. I could name a ton more but I'm too lazy to type them all out.

Lowering the quality of drops from chests is not nerfing. It's called balancing the game since anti-farming was implemented on monsters. It wouldn't be right to have chests always drop good loots while monsters don't.

btw, if you keep rezoning and opening the same chests over and over, then you will also be hit with anti-farming stick. Have you ever noticed that those hard to get to chests in the middle of a long mission give good drops most of the time?

Loviatar · Jul 14, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by funbun

It's a grind. 1000-1500 faction to unlock basics skills and weapons. Do you know how many Arena battle that equals? Its a grind. They advertized NO GRIND. They lied.

yes 2-3 wins for a high rank guild

2-7 gvg wins (depending on guild level) doing what you would be doing anyway

peanuts for grind unless you consider the pvp you claim to love a grind?

Damon Windwalker · Jul 14, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the armor acts as a gold sink...yes you get something for it...but if the economy was stable....and items were being sold for reasonable prices due to the fact that gold was harder to get....armor would be cheaper.

But - the armor prices don't vary. There is no supply and demand when it comes to it. You can't resell armor.

Damon Windwalker · Jul 14, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

peanuts for grind unless you consider the pvp you claim to love a grind?

I think that in PvP-speak, "grind" means "anything that you have to earn, instead of just having it given to you..." Therefore, I suppose rank is grind also?

Algren Cole · Jul 14, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

But - the armor prices don't vary. There is no supply and demand when it comes to it. You can't resell armor.

1970...the average price for a car was $5,000
2005....the average price for a car is $27,000 and some change.

the reason for this is because money is more readily available than it was then....however if you look at the prices/income ratio for the two years I quoted the cars were cheaper back then even for the decreased average income. If gold wasn't as available as it is now there would be no choice but to decrease the value of the armor...and yes you would be saving yourself time and grind over the long run....we see inflated prices BECAUSE people have more gold than you can possible use in this game. Remove the gold and you'll start to see more reasonable prices on the things you NEED....this process is a lengthy one and out of the gate arenanet made a HUGE mistake in not expecting this to happen...but they are slowly attempting to fix that problem. Ofcourse this means that for a while you'll have to go without.

hydrak · Jul 14, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by funbun

It's a grind. 1000-1500 faction to unlock basics skills and weapons. Do you know how many Arena battle that equals? Its a grind. They advertized NO GRIND. They lied.

If you like PvP and bought this game solely for PvPing, then how is it a grind doing something you like?

uh wait... would you like a game where all skills are ready-made? GW is the wrong game for you then. Go play CS or Warcraft3.

Orochim4ru · Jul 14, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Run an entire normal mission on your own and monitor the rate of drops. I guarantee you'll find drops are higher quality than farming. There are PLENTY of times when i'll enter a map and kill something and on my first 2 kills have a purple, then a gold drop. Honestly, its like the game is watching out for me.

More to the point, new players, my brother being one, realllllllllly hate having to waste 6 months of casual play to get all the skills and unlock the good item parts for pvp. In my first 3 hours of playing i was done the first mission, and was at level 8, while after 3 hours of casual play my brother had been at level 5 in pre-searing. The point is, people with spotty time cannot build up a pvp viable character in a decent amount of time. Having to pay 100k+ for one mod doesn't faze a farmer, after all they have 800k in the bank.

More to the point, they have NOTHING TO DO, and thus farm s'more, meanwhile, my brother just runs missions and can't get involved with the economy at all. I've got my 1000k after doing UW and FoW for fun with my guild, but we didn't farm: we gutted the entire place for fun. The only place i haven't been is past the burning forest in FoW, but that's because i'm lazy O_o.

Damon Windwalker · Jul 14, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

You are confusing items with fixed values (like armor, salvage kits, etc) with things that have prices that vary based on demand (such as materials, rare materials, dyes, and runes).

However, I stand by my statement - if the gold I use does not take away from anyone else, and is used to buy a fixed-price item that I cannot resell, then I do no harm to anyone if I farm to get it...

The harm comes in with the variable-priced items such as uber weapons and runes - come on, 47 plat for Superior Vigor (last time I looked)? Higher prices = more farming (or buying gold off eBay) = more gold available to spend = more demand = higher prices.

King's Spectre · Jul 14, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by funbun

1. Well. it aint working. I don't care how hard they are trying IT AINT WORKING!

I'm observing that they are TRYing - and rightly so. I won't argue how well they've done, but I agree that no PvP should have to play PvE if they don't want to.

Quote:

2. ??? I played through the game as a Monk an NEVER got a decent monk weapon. I had to buy them all. I've got one Uber monk weapon that I farmed for.

I'm not talking UBER, I'm talking good enough. Although a lot of the stuff available in the desert is pretty high end.

Quote:

3. Ther fore the need to make money. If they encourage high priced armor then we need ways to make money to buy it. They nerfed the good ways. The on way to make decent money now is to build up a W/Mo and make Drankor'sFoirge runs.

4. THEY ADVERTIZED NO FARMING.GRINDING. THEY LIED. Now we have to farm. They should keep to their word or at least tell us their position. either way they should tell us.

And you DON'T HAVE to grind to play the game. If you'd look at my post as a whole, I agree with you - I don't see a reason to discourage farming. You don't NEED a 15k armor. You don't NEED to pay 30k for 5 more hp than 1k would have bought you. But you and I both WANT them, and I don't see how making them completely unattainable helps the game in any way.

Algren Cole · Jul 14, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

You are confusing items with fixed values (like armor, salvage kits, etc) with things that have prices that vary based on demand (such as materials, rare materials, dyes, and runes).

there is no such thing as a "fixed price" in a working economy...

Damon Windwalker · Jul 14, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

there is no such thing as a "fixed price" in a working economy...

This isn't a class on economics. This is a discussion about Guild Wars. The price of some items, like armor, salvage kits, etc - do not vary.

hydrak · Jul 14, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I think that in PvP-speak, "grind" means "anything that you have to earn, instead of just having it given to you..." Therefore, I suppose rank is grind also?

Exactly.

Guild wars is a grind. I play only like to play PvP. I need to earn more skills from pvping. So it is a grind playing guild wars.

I quit guild wars, switching to warcraft3. There isn't a need to grind for skills. To earn a higher ladder rank in w3, i need many wins. Warcraft 3 is also a grind. So I quit playing warcraft 3.

Next stop. Is there a game that I don't really have to play ("grind?!)?

Algren Cole · Jul 14, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

This isn't a class on economics. This is a discussion about Guild Wars. The price of some items, like armor, salvage kits, etc - do not vary.

the fact that you don't understand that Guild Wars has an economy VERY similar to that of MOST places in the world....makes this conversation moot.

smitty-gw · Jul 14, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

1970...the average price for a car was $5,000
2005....the average price for a car is $27,000 and some change.

the reason for this is because money is more readily available than it was then....however if you look at the prices/income ratio for the two years I quoted the cars were cheaper back then even for the decreased average income. If gold wasn't as available as it is now there would be no choice but to decrease the value of the armor...and yes you would be saving yourself time and grind over the long run....we see inflated prices BECAUSE people have more gold than you can possible use in this game. Remove the gold and you'll start to see more reasonable prices on the things you NEED....this process is a lengthy one and out of the gate arenanet made a HUGE mistake in not expecting this to happen...but they are slowly attempting to fix that problem. Ofcourse this means that for a while you'll have to go without.

While I understand what your trying to say, I disagree. Obviously people don't have more gold than they could spend. The fluctuating and ever-increasing prices of desireable equipment in this game is proof that people are spending gold to obtain these items and that raises their prices based on the supply and demand economy system in GW.

If they nerf farming and gold drops, it will affect everyone, but it will negatively affect the casual gamer the most.

I say let the grinders and the farmers keep on keeping on. If the items everyone needs and wants were a bit more balanced, and obtainable through "A-net endorsed gameplay style", casual gamers would have legitimate goals to achieve.

The best part about it would be that the people who claim to "love" farming would cease that activity promptly.

Just some thoughts.