Curse

Drakron · Jul 18, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Really ... so can you beat the game with pre-searing starting armor and weapon as a warrior?

MSecorsky · Jul 18, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakron

Really ... so can you beat the game with pre-searing starting armor and weapon as a warrior?

What, can't you??? n00b!

(Please read the intended joke into this.)

Stur · Jul 18, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I don't even bother salvaging runes anymore, I got one last night and the merchant offered my 275g for the unsalvaged armor, and the rune merchant offered me 25 gold for the salvaged rune. I promptly sold my expert salvage kit and the armor.

sleazeh · Jul 18, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

stuff

you make a good point(s)....

I for one would be interested, even if just out of pure curiousity, to know a little more about the dynamic that is codified (if at all) between buy and sell. Something a bit more substantial than the quote from Gaille that I read, which was a very simplistic explanation. I don't need lines and lines of code, but a bit more than "it's capitalism!!' might be nice.

Because, after a bit of reflection, without it all we are left with are suppositions.

hydrak · Jul 18, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

The economy is perfectly stable after the update. For a measuring stick, look at the ectoplasms and obsidian shards. You don't see globs of ectoplasm being sold for 20k per glob anymore. It is very stable now, 10k each and nothing more. For obsidian shards, 3k each is a final and fixed price.

Algren Cole · Jul 18, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I'd prefer lines and lines of code

Drakron · Jul 18, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

hydrak you must have not been paying any atention to prices.

Shards and ectoplama was not even at 1 plat per piece, then Anet nerfed UW and Fissure drops, prices spiked because it became a rare material (expecialy in Europe).

Traders prices reflected it, they gone up but with this update it got worst because people stop selling to the trader, people sell then in trade and get a killing out of it.

Lets look at something that is NOT a incredible rare material for rish people.

10 fur squares right now are at 2 951 gp, sure people can farm charr hides but really how many lv 8s can farm Charrs?

So I can just go farm then with a lv20 and get 50 hides (not hard at all) but guess who is going to buy then ... not the trader that gives a fraction of his selling price but the "out of searing" characters that have no way of paying such high prices or farm for then, I can sell each at 200 gp and make a nice clean profit.

viet · Jul 18, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

yea i noticed i'v been gettin lesss for my runes at the trader too.
so i jus sell them (usualy unsalvaged) to any merchant.

farming charr hides is meant to be hard. my lvl 8's can do it no problem. dont kno wut ur complain about here. hell my lvl 6 can do it too with a few friends.

Drakron · Jul 18, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

It becames boring since you start to get more and more char carvings that charr hides since the map remenbers how many times you been there and "adapts" (nerf) drops.

Runes did not really changed, when the trader was implemented most drop to their lowest price (25 gp) since ninors are easy to come by and besides some exceptions major and superiors HP hit is too much to be considered as a option, people just unload then on the trader.

PhineasToke · Jul 18, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

The economy is perfectly stable after the update. For a measuring stick, look at the ectoplasms and obsidian shards. You don't see globs of ectoplasm being sold for 20k per glob anymore. It is very stable now, 10k each and nothing more. For obsidian shards, 3k each is a final and fixed price.

Stable for whom? The players with all the gold? What HAS happened is that GREED has taken over the item trading economy. Sit anywhere and watch what is being sold and the absurd prices. Also notice there are few if any buyers for the simplest of weapons, even with max damage. Why? Because it looks to me like a bunch of newer players have abandoned the game. Because of the economy? Hard to tell, but watching a +29HP sword pommel being sold for 90K makes my stomach turn.

I spent an hour with a pre character today and noticed that there were only 19 American districts in Ascalon, 19. Super hot day in July, I don't think this generation is outside playing stick ball. But I did notice that there were over 90K players in D2, way more than the normal 48-60K day or night.

A lot of factors seem to be driving players away now. Way to early in the life of an on line game. The model of GW allows on the fly updates that generally work to the betterment of the game.

But the last few seem to have screwed the pooch.

IxChel · Jul 18, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Basically there's no true equilibrium point for either buy or sell prices that reflect the 'actual' value of an item - just linked pairs ofrob prices that'll give steady resales. From any given equilibrium point, you could raise the sell point and still get sales (from those who were willing to pay more), and drop the buy offer (and pick up those who just want to get the item out of inventory, cash be damned) and still have the number of buys and sells match up, even if there are less of them. Similarly, you could raise the buy price and consequently lower the sell price, and see a much higher turnover of inventory even if, again, the rates matched up

From my observations, current algorithm is actually unstable. Since it doesn't raise the buying price anywhere near enough to match the increasing selling price, people don't sell (but perhaps still buy). The restricted supply then causes the selling price to be higher, and with a higher price players are even less unwilling to sell at a stupidly low price. So, the trader is starving because its optimized to take advantage of stupid idiots who sell either two low, or buy way way too high. I don't see the selling prices coming down _ever_ with this algorithm, and I don't see the buying prices going up. It also looks like the trader isn't willing to take a loss when it makes a stupid purchasing decision. In real-life traders take losses all the time when the supply/demand changes; by having the trader lock themselves out of a market because they won't take a loss, is rather dumb. If a trader bough X for 100, and can't sell it for that, it will lower the price till it can sell, and then remember not to buy for much higher than that in the short-term. Anyway, a serious fix is needed. The current code does not take micro-economics into account.

I suggest that the trader _not_ show any prices (buying or selling) unless someone requests. In this way, the trader can judge the "demand" for buying and selling, if lots of people are inquiring about the selling price for linen, then it knows it has potential sales in linen if the price was low enough. Over a few hours, it can then lower the price for linen as needed to make a few sales. If the inventory isn't high enough, then it can raise buying price to match. Basically, it should shoot for very small profit till it sets the market price, and then it should increase profit margin till the volume drops.

The trader could also add a 'Counter' button, which works like in real-life. If someone tries to 'Counter' with a price the trader could accept the counter offer -- or, if the person is countering with an offer that is really low, it could simply raise the prices even higher for that particular individual. In real life, a trader deals with someone being a jerk by raising their prices for that jerk... it's a penalty of sorts.

As suggested by Ensign, the algorithm should optimize on the change of net profit , not profit margin itself.

Dyeeo · Jul 18, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borealis

I've just completely stopped playing, I'll play again when they think about unscrewing whatever they did. Saying they did nothing doesn't fly with me, something was done and it's extremely lame.

Ditto for me too.

Beta Ray Bill · Jul 18, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

There is an alternative to keeping the newbs and low level characters from making a very rough journey to Tyria's elite. Increase the rarer drops and cut coin drops. An influx of more items on the market will steadily devalue the items that are out there for peer trading and provide more flexibility for people to trade, buy and sell.

I know it's not a perfect solution, but the arguement has been largely about the worthlessness of gold. Think about it: if mobs in the Fissure still only dropped about 5-10gp how quickly would a player be able to save enough for even the 1.5K armor?

What's happened in the game is a catering to a sense of entitlement. "I'm a higher level, therefore I should earn more for less time and effort spent." However justified the reasoning is, if the economy were standardized (ie. you get as much gold off a Hydra as you do a Devourer) it would take longer to achieve the purchasing goals of most players.

This, however, leads to farming which is what ANet wants to avoid in the game, and would be a negative experience for most players. Still...

Talesin Darkbriar · Jul 18, 2005, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhineasToke

It seems some of you missed the point entirely. Gold drives the economy. For many players not lucky enough to find the best weapons and upgrades from salvage, the only way to get them is to buy them from someone who HAS them.

The truth is, greed drives the economy and ANet has taken steps to neutralize it.
If you play the game often and long enough, you will eventually find all the gear your heart could ever desire.
Those who cannot stomach the idea of expending honest effort will always seek to acquire their desires as cheaply and quickly as possible - which is exactly what drives the previous lootocracy.
Take a quick trip to beacon's perch for a closeup of greed and stupidity united in a common cause.

There are gold sinks for those of us still holding onto our thousands of coins. For the rest, the Droknar's Forge armor is an affordable and serviceable alternative.

Talesin

Ensign · Jul 18, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

The economy is perfectly stable after the update. For a measuring stick, look at the ectoplasms and obsidian shards.

I'd like to, but the trader appears to be out of stock of those two items. Still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

From my observations, current algorithm is actually unstable. Since it doesn't raise the buying price anywhere near enough to match the increasing selling price, people don't sell (but perhaps still buy). The restricted supply then causes the selling price to be higher, and with a higher price players are even less unwilling to sell at a stupidly low price. So, the trader is starving because its optimized to take advantage of stupid idiots who sell either two low, or buy way way too high.

Yeah, I can see that. With each sale, the sell price goes up. With each buy, the buy price goes down. Both prices likely decay towards each other naturally, but any sale would just kick it back up again, so if the rates of decay are suitibly low you get stuck with the trader catering to the fringe markets. I'd think there'd be something you could do with the new 'request quote' button to figure out price points, but it's a messy problem. All I do know is that the prices have flown to the fringes and it's made a real mess of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Ray Bill

There is an alternative to keeping the newbs and low level characters from making a very rough journey to Tyria's elite. Increase the rarer drops and cut coin drops. An influx of more items on the market will steadily devalue the items that are out there for peer trading and provide more flexibility for people to trade, buy and sell.

Sure, and I'm still a bit confused as to why they've made things so rare in a game that's supposed to be about player skill not hours played. People have pharmed out huge amounts of gold, and the response has consistently been to nerf pharming. All that does is widen the gap.

Upgrades are the only really problematic items now, though. Perfect weapons come from collectors (for the most part), and runes are available from the traders (though are a pain to find yourself). Upgrades? It's a tiny market that seriously needs adjusting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin Darkbriar

The truth is, greed drives the economy and ANet has taken steps to neutralize it.

Which is perhaps the problem. Greed is the primary human motivator. Take away people's ability to satisfy their greed, and they stop caring. Greed, as far as the economy is concerned, needs to be encouraged.

Of course, that means they need to make the objects of desire *reasonably obtainable* so people will not lose interest.

Peace,
-CxE

Ilya Khan · Jul 19, 2005, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Yes Yes, I admit it. I log on Tuesday and Wednesday early in the morning and buy a BUNCH of materials (hides in particular) and then sell em Friday, Sat, Sun, and Monday night. Yes, I make plenty of money this way.

Saya · Jul 19, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

I don't like this new system, as it has the bad stench of other MMO economy solutions, such as EQ2, ... in it, where you're no longer buying for quality but for availablility.
Especially new players are hit by this, since they won't have the needed funds to support whatever armor they would like to have - remember the fur problem back when the game was released?

Anyway, that's just personal preference, but I just had a weird merchant/material trader experience.
10 piles of wood cost me 150g
The material trader offers me 50g for 13.
The merchant offers me 52g for 13.

If the trader would buy for the same amount as he sells it, then we wouldn't have any kind of raw material ressource hogging issues anymore, plus everyone could make enough gold by selling them to the trader.

All these current economy issues are a huge hit on the gameplay fun - at least for me -, as it's no longer about doing quests & missions together, but getting item x and ressource y in the least amount of time, to either sell it at rediculous prices or horde it to dump at the trader later on, when the market is screaming for them.

Just staying in Lions Arch or Ascalon City makes one double check if you're playing Guild Wars or Hanse...

Gardavil · Jul 19, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Third Quarter

I can honestly say that my equipment has never once made any real impact on success or failure.

If you need to farm for better weapons or armour, you are doing something horribly wrong.

I never said I was GOOD at this game, only that I like it and will continue to play it. It wouldn't be the first time I was accused of doing something horribly wrong. I do not yet have a level 20 character, only a level 12, and a level 10. I have no idea of how good the drops are past the Shiverpeaks, I know only of the areas of post Searing Ascalon.

All I am saying is this....I have only been playing this game since June, and even I have noticed a difference in that short time.....it is harder now to get good weapon drops, and the gold I used to make from the traders is twindling away. Just as I was starting to figure how to take advantage of the markets to make a good profit, the markets get changed.

One must do what one must do.........adapt and overcome.

Sunrazor · Jul 19, 2005, 02:41 AM // 02:41

My first time through the game, I had no problems buying 1.5k armor. I wasn't even terribly worried about saving up the materials. I had done no farming. I just walked in, bought about 20 cloths from the material trader, bought the armor, and had about 2k remaining.

My second time through the game, I ended up having to borrow about a bit from the bank. Not a huge amount, and I had gone through the game faster, picking up less in the way of stuff, so I wasn’t too concerned.

My third time through the game, I ended up having borrow about 5k from myself, and ended up buying nearly half of the hides I would need.

My fourth time through the game, admittedly the fastest time through (I didn’t do about half of the missions, preferring to walk through the countryside, and the only quests I did were the skills quests), I haven’t even bothered to buy my 1.5k armor. For that matter, I didn’t even buy the Oasis armor. I don’t have the leather I’d need, and I’m not willing to spend the money to get the leather.

A month after getting the game, I had 135k in my bank. That wouldn’t be nearly so high except that I was lucky enough to get some Superior Runes that I sold for good prices (for me). After two and a half months, I have 12k in my bank. That’s after buying three sets of 15k armor and minor runes to go with my armor when I didn’t already have the runes. I’ve never bought any item from another player. Armor, Skills and Runes (all the Runes I buy are minor) are all that I ever spend money on. As a casual player, I’m finding that I’m hard pressed to get anything. Missions and regular areas just don’t drop very well any more, and my ability to get basic items is suffering. Yes, I could spend six hours farming and get the gold I need. But I’d rather be playing the game. I don’t really care for getting a perfect sword or enough black dye to get that perfect shade. And when it comes right down to it, I don’t really need the 15k armor. But I would like to know that I’ll have enough money to get the 1.5k armor when I get that far.

Crimson_1190 · Jul 19, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Well, another problem I have with all of this is. There will always be people willing to put in hours getting more money and more "stuff" (be it items, runes etc). farmers will be farmers. The fact is that I just see a problem telling people how they should play the game. As for how it will ruin the economy, i don't get. The merchants should base the transactions on supply and demand, taking into accont the frequency of a materials occurance. Basically, It should be running a business. self interest is what drives the economy. I think the merch system may at most need a little correction about the pricing, but it is not the end of tyria here. Quitting over this I don't understand either. There are no shortage of materials if you are willing to take a salvage kit and do it yourself. One can easily make the iron needed for the armours. Then sell what you dont need to salvage (quest rewards are great for that) for the money. There is a time investment...much like all businesses run out of homes

you are just going to have to put some time into it. But, Having done that with my first couple characters, it is not so much time it is unreasonable. People seem to complain about finishing the game too quickly and not having money. Maybe they finished too quickly...run some of the quests....i used to make 200g off of some of the resales on the rewards. And most of the materials for my armour were attained through the scope of the quest. Or even better, get the collector armour....it only requires 4-5 worth of an item that is common in the area and the armour is comperable (or as in the wilderness area) somewhat better than is being sold. Hell, even use the crafters to make rare materials it is much cheaper in many cases.