Curse

Drakron · Jul 19, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

...
Monks are doing the class that is obviously less palatable to the community as a whole (as evidenced by the lack of monks). This is a service they provide to the community (providing a supply where there is a lack). Anybody that begrudges them asking something in return, all the while not making monks themselves so as to help out the community, is a prick, plain and simple.

Thats crap.

EVERY single class have something to offer, monks dont make a mission.

Saying "oh monks are uncommon in later missions" ... guess what?

So is mesmers, rangers, necros and a lot of classes depending on what people are there at that time, I seen 6 monks in a mission area with 2 W/Mo ... sould they pay the first Elementarist that shown up?

Monks want to get played because they think they are special ... well I have a W/Mo and so I can Sprint out and Rebirth the team ... sould I get payed for it?

Heck in that logic anyone with the monk as 2nd class sould get payed since they can heal and res, E/Mo can spawn more healing [even if they heal less) that a Mo/? ... sould they get payed?

Your entire argument is "monks can heal so they sould get payed" ... so what? they cannot cast AoE spells or have the armor to block mobs from reaching casters.

Every class have something to offer.

Drakenbow · Jul 19, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Okay, didn't see this on here....

I have mixed feelings about this topic, but I will put the negative on the shelf

It is possible that I would pay for an *excellent* monk, but when a henchie wouldn't work or I was only finding fodder. That being said, I would prefer the monk "prove" themselves first. Possibly have a set price and deduct from it based on how many times party members die. That way, if you don't perform well... you don't get paid well. (Hmmm, malpractice comes to mind hehe...) If you are *excellent* then you get paid well and possibly a bonus if you're with me

...
just my 2 gold

MuKen · Jul 19, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

That's what henchmen are for. Guild Wars is a GAME, it's a product for ENTERTAINMENT. For every monk that charges, there are 60 monks that are all too happy just to get in a group and PLAY for FUN without having to worry about some imaginary economic responsiblity.

Yeah, the henchmen are there for those of you that don't want to worry about acquiring a real monk (or whatever class), so if you don't like the economic impact of the supply/demand situation for monks, then use the henchmen. Don't go trying to stop other people from charging for their services. Just because a lot of people do something for free, does not mean that the remainder loses their right to charge for it, it just means they have competitition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

MuKen: your theory doesn't hold water....Pre-Sear through Trials of Ascension there are a plethora of monks looking to join parties simply to play...it's AFTER ascension that there aren't enough Monks...there are plenty of people that are playing monks they just know they can charge others for their "services" and so they sit around town and wait instead of playing.

And that's why people attempting to charge Pre-Sear through Trials of Ascension generally don't get anywhere. If people are capable of charging after that, that shows that their is a lack of people who want to play monks past that. If people are capable of charging and getting away with it, that shows they are providing a rare enough service to justify it, otherwise the chargers would never make any money. There's no point in trying to argue against it, economics will drive out the people who are not doing anything worth charging for.

Mithie · Jul 19, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

Yeah, the henchmen are there for those of you that don't want to worry about acquiring a real monk (or whatever class), so if you don't like the economic impact of the supply/demand situation for monks, then use the henchmen. Don't go trying to stop other people from charging for their services. Just because a lot of people do something for free, does not mean that the remainder loses their right to charge for it, it just means they have competitition.

WRONG. We're not actively STOPPING him from charging, we're simply noting our opinion that the act of charging demonstrates a moral point of view that differs from those shared by the majority of the community, which is certainly a valid opinion and an even more valid criticism.

Chev of Hardass · Jul 19, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Well, I charge a heavy fee for my services. I think what I do is worth a ton so I require that I be presented payment.

As a Warrior, I tend to be the group leader, I pull, call targets, and direct the team through the mission. Note I only "charge" fees for the missions that I know well and can honestly say I have beaten till I am blue in the face.

*For services renedered I require healing, experiance, my fair share of the drops, and that damage dealers follow my targets.

As a Necro, I continually juice the healers with energy (as in 100% of the time in battle), juice the Eles when I have time and the healers are keeping up with my life and I don't have to, and call targets.

*For services renedered I require healing, experiance, my fair share of the drops, and that damage dealers follow my targets.

As a ranger, I primarily shut down casters and healers, as well as do some pretty dacent damage. I again, call targets and pull and lead the way.

*For services renedered I require healing, experiance, my fair share of the drops, and that damage dealers follow my targets and that these same damage dealers don't follow me if I am going to shut down some pesky caster or healer while they kill one that I have already shutdown.

I run missions repeatedly, one in mind is Thunderhead Keep. I'm looking for a nice Hornbow there. I inform the group of this when we start the mission, and one day I hope someone will let me buy the one that drops, or one they have. For a fair price.

So, charge, you will have competition. Players that get burned by monks charging will go create a monk along with the entire rest of the guild wars community, and put you completely out of business.

On the other hand, I have seen groups pitch in and pay a well playing monk, at the end of a mission out of pure donation.

Fair share-set by Guild Wars.

MuKen · Jul 19, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

WRONG. We're not actively STOPPING him from charging, we're simply noting our opinion that the act of charging demonstrates a moral point of view that differs from those shared by the majority of the community, which is certainly a valid opinion and an even more valid criticism.

No, you're not actively stopping him, but I think that's more because of your inability to do so than out of respect for his rights. That's demonstrated by your coming in to his thread, which was intended to ask advice from like-minded people about how to do it, and derailing it by shoving your opinion all over.

I am entitled to my opinion that my neighbor's smoking habit is filthy, but I'm not gonna go with him to the store and remind him of that to his face while he's trying to buy cigarettes.

Xonic · Jul 19, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

I did a lot of "charged runs" by using henchmen. yeah, go go no skill players...

Divinus · Jul 19, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I doubt this will ever entirely work. There will always be people like me, who when see someone spamming "Monk - Charging X Amount for X Mission", will go get their monk and spam right under them "Monk - Free!".

hydrak · Jul 19, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

All truely devoted monk players don't charge anything. Same thing goes for other classes: you won't see a warrior asking for gold to tank for the group, or an elementalist charging gold to be a nuker for the group.

The monks who charge for their services belong to the class of MORONIC GW players. It's unfortunate that these morons only play monks, thus giving the other monks a bad name.

Mithie · Jul 19, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

No, you're not actively stopping him, but I think that's more because of your inability to do so than out of respect for his rights. That's demonstrated by your coming in to his thread, which was intended to ask advice from like-minded people about how to do it, and derailing it by shoving your opinion all over.

The question of the viability of charging as a monk was part of the original post, and the negative opinions and critcisms, though against the wishes of the original poster, are nonetheless very valid and overshadows much of the issues being thrown on the table. This is a forum. It's an open environment where everyone can express their opinions, to the extent of the limits imposed by the person who pays the bandwidth fees. The negative criticisms were made by mostly long time posters here who knows not to derail threads, yet such was their reaction to the OP, so obviously, not only is it relavent to the OP, the criticisms were CRITICAL to the OP, or at least thought to be such by their posters.

Quote:

I am entitled to my opinion that my neighbor's smoking habit is filthy, but I'm not gonna go with him to the store and remind him of that to his face while he's trying to buy cigarettes.

There are thousands of billboards invested across the world doing just that: reminding people of the health risks of smoking. If, in your heart, you truly believe smoking is an unhealthy thing, then by telling him such, you're making a morally correct decision. But that's irrelevant, as a supermarket is not an international public forum.

Scaphism · Jul 19, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Welcome to a community forum.
When you post, you subject yourself to the whims of the community. You can ask for something nicely, rudely, with caps lock on, in german, or even typing with your hands reversed- and guess what? You are still subject to criticism by the community.
While I'm on the subject, let me point out that criticism is not by nature a destructive or disparaging activity. Criticis should ask hard, analytical, crucial or "critical" questions about what they read.

You don't have the right to call each other names or any other kind of personal attacks. That's a line we've drawn and we enforce.

When you post about a controversial topic, expect controversy. To expect otherwise would be naive. Do your best to keep the boards civil and constructive, but that doesn't mean we constantly pat each other on the backs.

hydrak · Jul 19, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

The issues or arguments of the original poster are completely invalid. He compares monks to real life doctors, thus giving them the right to charge fees. What he doesn't understand is that in guildwars, everyone in the group has his or her own profession, not just the monk. So if everyone is doing his or her job in the group, why are the monks asking for fees while others don't? (answers: because fee-asking monks belong to the class of moronic guildwars players).

Aalric · Jul 19, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

All I can say is WOW

I'm on the European servers & I've not yet seen a monk charging for services - worse I've seen is not wanting to pay 125 for UW/Fissure.

Is this what's going on in the good old USA? Makes an expat sad to see - we've become to materialistic.

Aalric Rhynwood
Proud W/N (who doesn't charge)

The Destroyer · Jul 19, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I see monks charging 1 k for their services all the time. I really dont get this. A mission lasts at least 30-60 minutes and you get 1 k up front maybe another 500 in loot right? I can take my monk and go farm undead in several different map areas and make 2500-3500 gold in 30 minutes. Thats 2 to 3 times what you are making charging so whats the point? Why charge when you can make more money solo-ing high level undead? It must be a viable makrket as I see so many monks charging but I laugh when I see it realizing I make a much higher profit with far less hassle and my rep as a monk doesnt get tarnished with the "hes a mercenary" ideal. Is it the fact that these monks are so inexpereinced they dont know they can make tons of cash solo and then go and help people through missions when they feel like being nice? Please monks of the realm learn how to use your attribute refunds go heal/smite and go earn some real money on your own!

sleazeh · Jul 19, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

In direct answer to the question posed in the thread topic, you "should" charge nothing. The "service" you provide, regardless of your skill, or lack thereof, is unnecessary.

No single player, character, or class is specifically required for the completion of any quest or mission in the game. Further, for PvE in particular, the supplied AI henchmen are more than adequate to either completely create, or complement, any party, group build, or team you can conceive of.

Nothing personal, but I hope that so-called "service ventures" end up in utter failure and disappear from the community. I actually find the whole notion rather sad.

Algren Cole · Jul 19, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Destroyer

I see monks charging 1 k for their services all the time. I really dont get this. A mission lasts at least 30-60 minutes and you get 1 k up front maybe another 500 in loot right? I can take my monk and go farm undead in several different map areas and make 2500-3500 gold in 30 minutes. Thats 2 to 3 times what you are making charging so whats the point? Why charge when you can make more money solo-ing high level undead? It must be a viable makrket as I see so many monks charging but I laugh when I see it realizing I make a much higher profit with far less hassle and my rep as a monk doesnt get tarnished with the "hes a mercenary" ideal. Is it the fact that these monks are so inexpereinced they dont know they can make tons of cash solo and then go and help people through missions when they feel like being nice? Please monks of the realm learn how to use your attribute refunds go heal/smite and go earn some real money on your own!

while my experience with a monk is limited...(I have a lvl11 currently farming char in pre-sear)...I can honestly say that the entire idea of charging for missions was probably based on the fact that these monks CAN'T* farm properly...and thus need a way to make money. Healing a party is easy...it doesn't take a brain..or though...or even much attention. Stand back and watch the meters..when they're low hit em with a heal. A good monk brings far more to a group than healing....but healing is all you NEED to play a monk. A bad monk can keep you alive...those are the monks charging to run missions with you. A GOOD monk teams up with you for thunderhead keep and makes you think "why was this mission so tough the first 5 times I did it??"

Stev0 · Jul 19, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksci

Funny though, speaking in real life.
In some parts of the world, going to hospital is free (volunteers)
And in other parts of the world, going to hospital will cost you.
Yet people accept going to a hospital which charges, since they have the money. One could argue that a being a doctor is a profession and takes years of learning. Well the same goes for being a monk, getting to level 20 takes some time, and has a learning curve as well to be a good monk. Interesting.
I'll start a new thread, this is quite interesting actually.

Don't compare this with real life because you can't.

It's wholey unreasonable for one class to benefit monetarily for efforts that should be provided normally. In real life if you don't have cash you die.

In this game every class gives in their own way. Without Warriors to block heavy hitters the lighter armored players would get stomped. Without Rangers the group would be picked off tactically by unreachable opponents. Without Mesmers incoming heavey hitting spells would always get through. Without Elementalists you would be missing the heavy artillery pounding on creatures in groups and getting through the defences Rangers and Warriors cannot. Without Necros you cannot gain the benefits of the fallen to swell your ranks and weigh down strong enemies and finally; Without Monks to help prop up the wounded and provide defensive aid to the group. Remove anyone of those ESTABLISHED positions in the party and the whole thing comes down like a house of cards.

Should anyone gain more than another? No. If people give freely for good play then yes go ahead give a reward to a fellow player that does a superb job. Asking for cash for something that comes naturally is ridiculous because a Monk is NOTHING without the rest of the party.

hydrak · Jul 19, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Destroyer

I see monks charging 1 k for their services all the time. I really dont get this. A mission lasts at least 30-60 minutes and you get 1 k up front maybe another 500 in loot right? I can take my monk and go farm undead in several different map areas and make 2500-3500 gold in 30 minutes. Thats 2 to 3 times what you are making charging so whats the point? Why charge when you can make more money solo-ing high level undead? It must be a viable makrket as I see so many monks charging but I laugh when I see it realizing I make a much higher profit with far less hassle and my rep as a monk doesnt get tarnished with the "hes a mercenary" ideal. Is it the fact that these monks are so inexpereinced they dont know they can make tons of cash solo and then go and help people through missions when they feel like being nice? Please monks of the realm learn how to use your attribute refunds go heal/smite and go earn some real money on your own!

Well said. A true monk doesn't need to charge and will never charge a fee in a group. Making 1-3k for a 30-60 mins mission is the worst possible way to earn gold.

MuKen · Jul 19, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Welcome to a community forum.
When you post, you subject yourself to the whims of the community. You can ask for something nicely, rudely, with caps lock on, in german, or even typing with your hands reversed- and guess what? You are still subject to criticism by the community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

The question of the viability of charging as a monk was part of the original post, and the negative opinions and critcisms, though against the wishes of the original poster, are nonetheless very valid and overshadows much of the issues being thrown on the table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

No, there's no rule requiring you to show him common courtesy by making your posts align with the intended topic of the thread. Doesn't change the fact that doing otherwise makes you a jerk.

The non-jerk way to discuss your opinions is to start another thread "should monks charge for their services"

I'm not debating what you are and are not ALLOWED to do, since there is clearly no rule against inserting your opinion into a thread in a manner that will clearly lead to its derailment. I'm just stating my opinion: this is a jerktastic way of doing things.

He didn't put out an opinion on this subject and ask for discussion, he asked for like-minded people to give him advice on how to go about his business. Coming in and telling him that this whole process is disgusting, rather than simply making your own thread for the purpose of that discussion, is rude.

Kiiron · Jul 19, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksci

Funny though, speaking in real life.
In some parts of the world, going to hospital is free (volunteers)
And in other parts of the world, going to hospital will cost you.
Yet people accept going to a hospital which charges, since they have the money. One could argue that a being a doctor is a profession and takes years of learning. Well the same goes for being a monk, getting to level 20 takes some time, and has a learning curve as well to be a good monk. Interesting.
I'll start a new thread, this is quite interesting actually.

I'd just like to point out that this isn't quite true. In most non-agricultural countries where there is free health care (for instance, Canada), the doctors are not volunteers. They are paid by the Canadian government for services rendered, and are thus compensated for their work in that way.

People accept going to a hospital that charges, usually, because they have no choice. Tell me - if you've broken your arm and have a choice of going to a state-run hospital that will not charge you for anything or going to a private hospital that will charge you $200 for the x-ray, $100 for the cast and $800 for the time it took? And if you're not rich and don't have health insurance (for instance, Wal-mart's costly premiums and limited coverage mean that only about 2/5 employees buy it) good luck if you have a heart attack and require rehab and care (overwhelming medical debt is the number one reason for bankrupcy in the US).

Also, I don't think you can compare our capitalistic system with the Guild Wars economy, especially considering that ANet has gone to great lengths to make this game decidedly un-capitalistic. For instance, the rune traders seem to be nothing less than a direct government subsidy: why pay another player 10k for that superior blood rune when you can buy it from the trader for 120 gold? They have made trading with other players completely optional for all intents and purposes.

Anyway, on the OP's point, I would say that a monk (my primary character is a pure healer) is worth anywhere from a few hundred to a few k, depending on experience, dedication and survivability. But don't oversell yourself. You might think you're the greatest thing to happen to healing since Edward Jenner, but if 4 party members end up biting the dust, you'll sure look silly. Also, I'd think that most people would be wary of paying in full up front. But anyway, good luck on your experiment!