Curse

Siren · Jul 07, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I PvP and PvE a lot. I've gone through a lot of effort getting wins in the PvP environment. If all my effort was wasted by removing the barriers of the game and granting access to all PvE areas, missions and quests without having to win thousands of PvP matches, I would be FURIOUS.

Oh wait... that's already how the biased set up already is. You can PvE all day and not be forced into any PvP play mechanics except once, and some of you act like it's a Constitutional law to not allow that same level of freedom to those who wish to PvP with no PvE play mechanics. Fact is, when it comes to competition, one main purpose of the rules is to allow pure skill to face pure skill with no uneven league influences. You're defending the undefendable because you want to force PvE adventure 'unlocking' mechanics in an area where it goes completely against what skillful competiion is all about.

A player's quote from any team competition:

"We'll beat you.. Why? Because we've worked on our tactics, improved our abilities, planned our strategy, honned our skills and know how to work well with each other as a team."

An opposing player's response if that competition is Guild Wars:

"Actually, we'll beat you... Why? We went through PvE six times each to quickly get access to everything in under 600 hours. With our spike build and powerful team heals, we all know you haven't unlocked anything yet that can stop us."

Sure, keep the system the same. We don't need pure skill to determine who's best. Pure skill that's used in every other competitive activity is so over rated. Especially when you can get Arena.net to give you an advantage after you've pleased them by grinding more hours than the next guy in order to be artificially better. Three cheers for my favorite Arena.net quote from their own website:

Arredondo, do us all a favor and just give it a rest. You barely replied to posts back four pages ago, and you never replied to anything on the last two pages. Saus Rex gave a pretty damn good argument why UAS/UAR/UAE is a bad idea. I didn't see you reply to that. Others here also gave some rather astute counterarguments, as well. And I didn't see you reply to them on any real meaningful level, either.

And anyway, claiming that through granting everyone everything, the game will by default be determined by pure skill is a fallacy, because even if you give players everything, there will still be variables in play that are not remotely related to that player's skill level; for example: their physical health; their level of attention; what may be going on around them (outside distractions); their location; the time. Do you get what I'm saying here?

You're never going to be able to achieve pure skill, because skill (performance) will always be affected by something, whether it's in-game or external forces sometimes out of the player's control. It's foolishly Idealistic to believe otherwise.

arredondo · Jul 07, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Arredondo, do us all a favor and just give it a rest. You barely replied to posts back four pages ago, and you never replied to anything on the last two pages. Saus Rex gave a pretty damn good argument why UAS/UAR/UAE is a bad idea. I didn't see you reply to that. Others here also gave some rather astute counterarguments, as well. And I didn't see you reply to them on any real meaningful level, either.

Didn't realize that a quota system is in place. I guess next time I should check with you first to make sure it's a-ok to post in the thread that *I* created. The only thing that should be given a rest is comments like yours on this forum that target a poster instead of the content of a post itself. Don't like what I have to say and when I say it? Stand in line and take a number. I'll do what I wish. Oh, and you can help your cause a lot more by not telling me to respond to imaginary posts from people who haven't commented in my thread.

And judging by the 2nd half of your post, I certainly would be wasting my time if all I did was repeat ground that was already covered in extra detail from the beginning on. The variables of player abilities in a game are PART of fair competition. What is NOT part of fair competition is when those variables are imposed by the LEAGUE. Wade through a week's worth of history here in this thread to learn more about how this system has worked in thousands of competitive activities over hundreds of years.

Siren · Jul 07, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Didn't realize that a quota system is in place. I guess next time I should check with you first to make sure it's a-ok to post in the thread that I created.

The only thing that should be given a rest is comments like yours on this forum that target a poster instead of the content of a post itself. Don't like what I have to say and when I say it? Stand in line and take a number. I'll do what I wish.

No offense, dude, but what else did you expect me to comment on? Your "point" through much of this thread has been successfully countered many, many times, yet you fail to acknowledge that. Your attitude through much of this thread has been that of children on a playground, putting fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalalalala."

I've said this before to other people in other threads, but if you don't want people treating you like a child, then don't act like one. Shakespeare's Fool is called a Fool because he is one, because he acts like one.

Quote:

And judging by the 2nd half of your post, I certainly would be wasting my time if all I did was repeat ground that was already covered in extra detail from the beginning on.

The variables of player abilities in a game are PART of fair competition. What is NOT part of fair competition is when those variables are imposed by the LEAGUE. Wade through a week's worth of history here in this thread to learn more about how this system has worked in thousands of competitive activities over hundreds of years.

UAS/R/E was never part of the actual game design purpose, so why do you keep bringing it up? Oh, because not having it isn't fair? What's to say that giving everyone everything is going to improve the quality of the combat? Or is going to make everything fair? Pure Idealism, that's what.

Quote:

Oh, and you can help your cause a lot more by not telling me to respond to imaginary posts from people who haven't commented in my thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...099#post146099

Imaginary post? Not necessarily, arredondo. He punched a hole in the same argument you're using here. And you did reply in that thread (within a few posts, in fact) and didn't even bother replying to him. You have this peculiar habit of not directly replying to posts that may be deleterious to your point.

And I think Saus Rex's comment ("It's not about having all skills. It's about having the right skills.") is a very astute observation here. I would think that can be further applied to runes, armors, and weapons, as well.

An extra 30 health from an "Of Fortitude" mod is going to vanish when you face the same kinds of heavy damage that people are facing right now.

Superior Vigors add a nice chunk of health, sure, but what good is the extra health when the player is getting locked down by the same skills as they were before UAX?

It's not as if Backfire will become a throw-away spell when the player gets Ether Lord. Nobody in their right mind would seriously consider Ether Lord over Backfire except in extreme circumstances.

Hamstring will still Cripple the target if it connects, and it won't connect if another skill/spell (and there's a variety of skills/spells across the 6 professions of this type) stops it...and this is happening now...and it will still happen.

A Smiting Monk will tear through a Necromancer equipped with Necrotic armor, regardless of the level of the Necrotic armor.

Energy Drain isn't going to help a Mesmer when they just got knocked down by a hammer, or Gale, or got hit by a Chain Lightning. In fact, having it to begin with (or having access to it) before the attack isn't going to make things any easier or "fairer."

Having a maxed out Spirit Shackles is nice, but what happens when you're facing a Warrior who has a mainly adrenaline-based skill set? That's right. Absolutely nothing.

Is having all the skills in the game really going to matter, especially when many of them are so clunky and anti-intuitive that they're almost not even worth considering?

Is having all the equipment in the game really going to matter? Will better armor defend any better against a 16 Illusion Conjure Phantasm? Is a better sword going to protect against Blind? Is a max level shield going to resist Knockdowns any better than a "Newb" shield? Is having all of anything really going to improve someone's chance of winning?

I don't think so. Or at least, not by the huge margin you're claiming it will.

PieXags · Jul 07, 2005, 02:18 AM // 02:18

True enough.

In fact just today I believe someone started a thread saying how boring it was that everyone had all the same skills, that there were no "best" weapons or "best" runes or "best skills, the guy made a thread STRESSING the points that everything right now IS even enough. (He said it was too even.)

Honestly, those of you who want all the skills with a UAX don't want it for the fact that you can't unlock them for your build now, you want them so that you can have the LUXURY of playing around with builds whenever you please, and that's not necessary to keep the playing field even.

Tuna · Jul 07, 2005, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

An extra 30 health from an "Of Fortitude" mod is going to vanish when you face the same kinds of heavy damage that people are facing right now.

Superior Vigors add a nice chunk of health, sure, but what good is the extra health when the player is getting locked down by the same skills as they were before UAX?

I cannot count on my fingers and toes the number of times I've gotten someone down to about 30 health before they were healed. (or vise versa)

Quote:

Hamstring will still Cripple the target if it connects, and it won't connect if another skill/spell (and there's a variety of skills/spells across the 6 professions of this type) stops it...and this is happening now...and it will still happen.

A Smiting Monk will tear through a Necromancer equipped with Necrotic armor, regardless of the level of the Necrotic armor.

Energy Drain isn't going to help a Mesmer when they just got knocked down by a hammer, or Gale, or got hit by a Chain Lightning. In fact, having it to begin with (or having access to it) before the attack isn't going to make things any easier or "fairer."

Having a maxed out Spirit Shackles is nice, but what happens when you're facing a Warrior who has a mainly adrenaline-based skill set? That's right. Absolutely nothing.

Is having all the equipment in the game really going to matter? Will better armor defend any better against a 16 Illusion Conjure Phantasm?

My hamstring doesn't cripple, my smiting monk doesn't smite, my energy drain doesn't help, I'm not knocking down with gale or doing damage with chain lightning, nor am I casting spirit shackles or using an adren setup, and my conjure phantasm doesn't do any damage. Why? Because I haven't unlocked them yet. What is the point of a rock<paper<scissors setup if you can't use paper?

Quote:

Is a better sword going to protect against Blind? Is a max level shield going to resist Knockdowns any better than a "Newb" shield? Is having all of anything really going to improve someone's chance of winning?

UAX isn't about items, its about upgrades and skills. Everyone get max dmg weapons and max al armor.

Quote:

Is having all the skills in the game really going to matter, especially when many of them are so clunky and anti-intuitive that they're almost not even worth considering?

I think this is the major wrong turn for anti-UAX people. There are very few skills in this game that are useless. The reason why some appear 'useless' is because they are used in specialized builds and are not stand alone skills. This is also the reason why we see so many wa/mos; they are simple and work. However, if you want to win simple isn't going to cut it. In short, yes, having all the skills really matters.

Quote:

I don't think so. Or at least, not by the huge margin you're claiming it will.

Therein is the difference between you and I.

All the talk of PvPers avoiding arguements is kinda getting on my nerves. There are countless resopnces to almost every anti-UAS argument. However, if you do not find them sufficient I will be more than happy to speak for the PvP crowd and address your concerns untill you are satisfied with the responce.

edit:

Quote:

Honestly, those of you who want all the skills with a UAX don't want it for the fact that you can't unlock them for your build now, you want them so that you can have the LUXURY of playing around with builds whenever you please, and that's not necessary to keep the playing field even.

Incorrect on the first part and for the second part, who are you to deny people a luxury?

Sythion · Jul 07, 2005, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Oh wait... that's already how the biased set up already is. You can PvE all day and not be forced into any PvP play mechanics except once, and some of you act like it's a Constitutional law to not allow that same level of freedom to those who wish to PvP with no PvE play mechanics. Fact is, when it comes to competition, one main purpose of the rules is to allow pure skill to face pure skill with no uneven league influences. You're defending the undefendable because you want to force PvE adventure 'unlocking' mechanics in an area where it goes completely against what skillful competiion is all about.

Perhaps you don't understand, if UAS happens, you have just completely devalued all PvE play mechanics. There is no progression or improvement that can be gained from PvE, which is why I (and most RPGers) enjoy RPGs in the first place. Although the "freedom" of PvP may be limited right now, UAS will destroy PvE, and a huge portion of the customer base entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

A player's quote from any team competition:

"We'll beat you.. Why? Because we've worked on our tactics, improved our abilities, planned our strategy, honned our skills and know how to work well with each other as a team."

An opposing player's response if that competition is Guild Wars:

"Actually, we'll beat you... Why? We went through PvE six times each to quickly get access to everything in under 600 hours. With our spike build and powerful team heals, we all know you haven't unlocked anything yet that can stop us."

I'm sorry, but you are horribly wrong. A team with superior strategies is going to beat a team with +30 hp, +3 damage, and no experience anyday. Now if both teams are competitive and skillful players, yes the one with better equipment will have the advantage. I find this to be a necessary evil to retain the desire for players to even have a PvE portion to the game. That being said, I do feel that the faction points climb too slowly to be realistic alternatives for PvPers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Sure, keep the system the same. We don't need pure skill to determine who's best. Pure skill that's used in every other competitive activity is so over rated. Especially when you can get Arena.net to give you an advantage after you've pleased them by grinding more hours than the next guy in order to be artificially better. Three cheers for my favorite Arena.net quote from their own website:

As was pointed out before, more then skill goes into every competitive activity. Does a fat basketball player who can't move compete with an NBA player who has trained and dieted to be more powerful? Probably not, regardless of actual skill. Would a fat basketball player with a great jumpshot beat an athlete who has never touched a basketball in his life? Most likely. Skill and effort are both required for this game. Regardless of the time spent grinding in order to compete with the big dogs, right from the start skill is more important in guildwars then any PvP based RPG in history. You do not have to unlock everything to compete, and arena.net statement is true. You can be competitive (say within the top 20%), without grinding.

Tuna · Jul 07, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

Perhaps you don't understand, if UAS happens, you have just completely devalued all PvE play mechanics. There is no progression or improvement that can be gained from PvE, which is why I (and most RPGers) enjoy RPGs in the first place. Although the "freedom" of PvP may be limited right now, UAS will destroy PvE, and a huge portion of the customer base entirely.

I'll take this one (again) as it is the best arguement against UAX.

I find it interesting how you say UAS will completely devalue PvE play mechanics. By the same logic could it not follow that the current setup completely devalues PvP mechanics?

I also find you comments about RP progression interesting. As far as I can tell what happens to the PvP world should not effect your PvE expereince in the least. To progess in PvE you must invest time, it has been that way in every game and it is that way in Guild Wars, nobody can change that and you'll notice neither are we (PvPers). I don't think there can be any argument about this. Unfortunately for my arguement this game is one instead of two. This means the real agruement is "won't Joe PvE get owned by people with UAX? Thats not fair!"

Luckily, I am prepared!

Joe PvE will most likely have striven for prefection on his PvE character which means he will have the same stuff as a UAX PvP char minus flexibility. Since Joe PvE also will take much longer to complete the game (thus gaining more exp) than the average PvPer he will have accumulated more skill points allowing him to nearly unlock all the skills for his primary and secondary. So in essence, Joe PvE's character will be equal to a PvP only. What Joe PvE will lack however, is flexibility. He will have some leway with his skills but little else. If he really wants to switch secondaries or try something completely different all together I can garuntee one of two things:1. Joe will happily make use of UAX PvP only characters 2. Joe will want to redo the PvE experience with his newly thought up monster killing machine.

The other main agruement against UAX is that 'its not fair that PvPers get it all and we have to work for it." I've never really understood how the same options aren't available to PvEers. The whole argument sounds kind of childish to me but if a PvEer can provide more insight I'll be happy to debate.

Quote:

You can be competitive (say within the top 20%), without grinding.

I belive the ladder only goes to top 1000, so I'll take 'top 20%' to mean top 200 ranked guilds. Currently you need 1259 points to be to be under rank 200 and have what looks to be about a 2:1 ratio. Could you get there without grinding (only beating game once per person in guild)? Maybe if you planned out who will play what before you started. Unfortunatley before you started was a long time ago and many things in the Guild Wars PvP world have changed. What was decided a month ago is probably obsolete. I'm not going to say you can't get in top 20% with out grind, but I am gonna say you could be a lot better if you did.

arredondo · Jul 07, 2005, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

No offense, dude, but what else did you expect me to comment on? Your "point" through much of this thread has been successfully countered many, many times, yet you fail to acknowledge that. Your attitude through much of this thread has been that of children on a playground, putting fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalalalala."

I failed so miserably that no less than two people admitted to changing their attitude based on my posts. Others have strongly agreed (along with some disagreements), with some acknowledgement of the soundness of my logic. Comments on yours? Yaaaaaaaawn.

Quote:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...099#post146099

Imaginary post? Not necessarily, arredondo. He punched a hole in the same argument you're using here. And you did reply in that thread (within a few posts, in fact) and didn't even bother replying to him. You have this peculiar habit of not directly replying to posts that may be deleterious to your point.

OK, now I understand this forum game you want to play. It must be called: hide-and-go-seek-the-post. You think of one post not in this thread that's hidden in one of a few thousand other threads and I'm supposed to guess what you are talking about. Sounds fun, but I won't play it unless you turn on UAX first.

Anyway, it seems that under his post there is a very strong refution of his points you so admire:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=37

He seems to go along with what a lot (not all) of what I say all the time, so no reply from me is needed. It comes down to this.. the less you take competition seriously, the more you care about PvE mechanics in PvP than pure skillful competition. I can't make you like it, but that's what it boils down to.

My response to the rest of your post... a multiple choice question.

All things being about equal, with skillful teammates and top level tactics shared by all... which team has the obvious advantage based on hours spent "jumping through hoops" for the league?

A) Has 10% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
B) Has 50% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
C) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from

Take your time.

*** BONUS QUESTION! ***

All things being about equal, with skillful teammates and top level tactics shared by all... which team has the obvious advantage?

A) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
B) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
C) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
D) We find out on the field of battle.

arredondo · Jul 07, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

Perhaps you don't understand, if UAS happens, you have just completely devalued all PvE play mechanics. There is no progression or improvement that can be gained from PvE, which is why I (and most RPGers) enjoy RPGs in the first place. Although the "freedom" of PvP may be limited right now, UAS will destroy PvE, and a huge portion of the customer base entirely.

Obviously Arena.net doesn't care if PvE players say "screw you" to PvP play mechanics since they don't have to play it, so why should it be set up vice versa? Why do PvP players HAVE to go through 'unlocking' games that is the exact opposite of skillful competition (the POINT of PvP)? It isn't your fault, and I see what you are saying, but the smiles of one side shouldn't come at the cost of the other side frowning.

PvE rewards should be PvE related, NOT PvP related. And vice versa. Sure, UW and FoW are connected to PvP wins, but that's not NEARLY as detrimental as having a PvE ball and chain attached to PvP and slowing it down. We should freely play each for what they each offer us, but mixing the two (in this case, mostly PvE mechanics in PvP), takes away from the pure, time honored play mechanics of the other.

Just because they screwed up by having it this way is no reason to continue to hold back PvP from what it could (and should) be. Petition for a lot more PvE rewards and you'll no longer care about limiting PvP skillful competition.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but you are horribly wrong. A team with superior strategies is going to beat a team with +30 hp, +3 damage, and no experience anyday. Now if both teams are competitive and skillful players, yes the one with better equipment will have the advantage. I find this to be a necessary evil to retain the desire for players to even have a PvE portion to the game. That being said, I do feel that the faction points climb too slowly to be realistic alternatives for PvPers.

You put in two factors when our discussion is on one. All other things being roughly equal, in any sport, game, competition or contest, a player or team wins or fails on their own with NO influence from the "league" rules that favors the one side who spent more time jumping through hoops. That is what this is allll about.

Quote:

As was pointed out before, more then skill goes into every competitive activity. Does a fat basketball player who can't move compete with an NBA player who has trained and dieted to be more powerful? Probably not, regardless of actual skill. Would a fat basketball player with a great jumpshot beat an athlete who has never touched a basketball in his life? Most likely. Skill and effort are both required for this game. Regardless of the time spent grinding in order to compete with the big dogs, right from the start skill is more important in guildwars then any PvP based RPG in history. You do not have to unlock everything to compete, and arena.net statement is true. You can be competitive (say within the top 20%), without grinding.

You obviously haven't read the many posts here that address that point. This isn't about one player being better or worse because of their own abilities or skills. This is about having access to gear before a match that the opponent has access to based on pleasing the league with hours played. Nothing more. That's all. We are not debating anything else from the first post on. This is how it works in every skill-based competition known to man. You win or fail on your own abilities and preparation, uninfluenced by uneven league gear-giving games. Everyone has access to all options and may the best man/team win.

So to your example, if a fat b-ball player gets humiliated on the court, he can go get in shape and practice his ability... does he have to make the LEAGUE happy first by making 10,000 free throws before he can 'unlock' less weight? Does he have to make the LEAGUE happy first by dunking the ball 10,000 times before he can 'unlock' hi-top shoes to replace the slippers he had to start with? See the stupidity of it if you are trying to have a purely skillful competition? Do you want to play against a team wearing slippers because the league made them? Wouldn't you rather play them on the same level as you and your team based on NO league influence?

We are asking only one thing... allow me and my teammates to win or lose, excel or fail, 100% based on our OWN abilities, tactics, strategies, and execution on the field with NO influence from the league that helps or hinders any side based on hours spent playing their little adventure 'unlocking' game mechanics.

JoDiamonds · Jul 07, 2005, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And anyway, claiming that through granting everyone everything, the game will by default be determined by pure skill is a fallacy, because even if you give players everything, there will still be variables in play that are not remotely related to that player's skill level; for example: their physical health; their level of attention; what may be going on around them (outside distractions); their location; the time. Do you get what I'm saying here?

You're never going to be able to achieve pure skill, because skill (performance) will always be affected by something, whether it's in-game or external forces sometimes out of the player's control. It's foolishly Idealistic to believe otherwise.

Does that mean we shouldn't try? Just because something can never be perfect shouldn't prevent us from striving for perfection. Call me foolishly idealistic, if you like.

It is possible to create a competitive format that is entirely skill based within the game. I ask that such a format be created. (Personally, I do not demand that it be any kind of full unlocking, unlike some others, so please don't read that as my position.)

It is within Arena Net's power to control all things within the game. Obviously they cannot control what is outside of the game. Hopefully Arena Net has the wisdom to change what they can, and ignore what they cannot.

To do otherwise is where the foolishness lay.

Phades · Jul 07, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

The debate needs to stop, because the only fair solution is the simple one. Segregate the players and give each what they want. On the plus side, you have people getting what they want, but on the minus side you have fewer people to play with.

JoDiamonds · Jul 07, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

Perhaps you don't understand, if UAS happens, you have just completely devalued all PvE play mechanics. There is no progression or improvement that can be gained from PvE, which is why I (and most RPGers) enjoy RPGs in the first place. Although the "freedom" of PvP may be limited right now, UAS will destroy PvE, and a huge portion of the customer base entirely.

Huh?

PvP characters cannot play in the PvE world. There is still every reason to advance your PvE characters: To do what you made them for, playing PvE.

I do not understand this position. I see no reason why a full unlock would ruin PvE. I will freely admit that it removes one goal for PvE players, which is to level up their character to be competitive in PvP. But since it's a PvE character, presumably the primary reason the character was created was to play PvE.

I'm play PvE. I have two accounts so that I can run a primary of each class through the game (and I've got four of them at least past Lion's Arch). If PvP were removed from the game entirely, I would be sad, but I would absolutely keep playing the game for hundreds of hours yet to come.

Additionally, there is no reason why there cannot still be PvE-only arenas, even at high levels. Arena Net is free to include many types of PvP in Guild Wars, if they choose (and indeed there are many already). The venues for fully-unlocked PvP do not necessarily have to be venues that PvE characters can access, or vice versa.

This largely retains the goal of leveling up PvE characters for PvP battles.

But my essential question remains: Why would people who enjoy playing PvE stop playing if there existed a fully unlocked PvP format? How does this harm the customer base? If you are here for PvE, I don't understand why changes to PvP would "destroy PvE, and a huge portion of the customer base entirely".

I should (as always) point out that I'm not even in favor of fully unlocking PvP, certainly not in all locations and formats. But this argument utterly confounds me, and as a casual debater and devil's advocate I can't see how this helps the general argument that "fully unlocked PvP is bad".

I'm totally serious, and really not trying to play devil's advocate: Can someone clarify this for me? I just don't get it.

PieXags · Jul 07, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

In correct on the first part and for the second part, who are you to deny people a luxury?

Well you see I'm not the one denying them the luxury, it's the devs who're actually doing the denying. I'm just pointing it out that having all the skills isn't necessary for a level playing field because everyone starts off at a level playing field and has to work their way up, just like everyone else. I just wanted to note that half the people here say they want the UAX to be able to switch their attributes, skills, runes, etc whenever they want...but doing so will not give you a "level playing field", because at the beginning of each fight, people will still have different skills equipped, they'll still have different runes, they'll still have different classes etc. What??? You mean then it'd be even because everyone had access to the things? Everyone has access to them now, and everyone has to work for them. Sounds as even to me as a UAX would. So my point is that the only real benefit of a UAX would be to not have to think about which skills you're getting because then you'd just be given the luxury to mess around with whatever you wanted. And to that I say "boo hoo", so you can't test any and all builds that ever would come to your mind with the click of a button. You people seem to be so fond of "math" when it comes to calculating time and faction points, so go calculate the efficiency of the builds if that's what you want.

It's kind of like the armor in the Fissure of Woe. You don't need it to even the playing field, it's just a luxury some people choose to get.

See right now, in fact, people HAVE the luxury to test any builds they want, they just have to earn it. People aren't arguing for a level playing field or a more skill-based fight, they've got that, what people really want here is to do what they want, when they want, and how they want, with the click of a button.

And apparently enough...the devs would rather not hand out that luxury. Otherwise, they'd have done it by now 'eh?

-------------------------------

And in response to Jo's post here. I'll tell you why they haven't done PvE only arenas and things like that. It's because PvE and PvP are supposed to be intertwined, and they don't want to go and seperate the two into halves, because that isn't the way it was meant to be.

You know I was hoping this thread died off. For a day or two I hadn't seen it. Go figure.

Tuna · Jul 07, 2005, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

I'm just pointing it out that having all the skills isn't necessary for a level playing field because everyone starts off at a level playing field and has to work their way up, just like everyone else.

Starting at a level playing field means nothing, after you kill your first brood scale the balance is off. Saying people 'have to work their way up' shows that you are stuck in a MMO mindset. GW is not a MMO.

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I just wanted to note that half the people here say they want the UAX to be able to switch their attributes, skills, runes, etc whenever they want...

Untill every build has been tried, Guild Wars is about experimenting. Switching attributes, skills, runes, and etc. is what makes new strategies, builds, and keeps GW from becoming stale.

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but doing so will not give you a "level playing field", because at the beginning of each fight, people will still have different skills equipped, they'll still have different runes, they'll still have different classes etc.

Wow, just wow. That is like saying rock paper scissors is not balanced because one person can draw paper and the other rock, its not fair unless they both draw scissors. The point is that everyone has access to these skills, how they use them is not my problem.

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What??? You mean then it'd be even because everyone had access to the things? Everyone has access to them now, and everyone has to work for them. Sounds as even to me as a UAX would.

Do you not understand? It is not even because of the grind needed to unlock these skills. This issue of grind is what spawned the arguement over UAX in the first place.

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So my point is that the only real benefit of a UAX would be to not have to think about which skills you're getting because then you'd just be given the luxury to mess around with whatever you wanted.

If you want to win, you have to think. Player gnorance is not a viable agruement against UAX.

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And to that I say "boo hoo", so you can't test any and all builds that ever would come to your mind with the click of a button. You people seem to be so fond of "math" when it comes to calculating time and faction points, so go calculate the efficiency of the builds if that's what you want.

It humors me how you mock PvPers while you were probably one of the people crying their heads of for sigil repriceing. As for the calculations, I do them. Unfortunately there is a 'bit' of a difference between paper and the real world.

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It's kind of like the armor in the Fissure of Woe. You don't need it to even the playing field, it's just a luxury some people choose to get.

Its kind of not like the fissure armor. Fissure armor offers no advantage over regular 1.5k while skills offer possibly infinite advanatge.

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See right now, in fact, people HAVE the luxury to test any builds they want, they just have to earn it.

I didn't want to respond to this again, but it is rediculously childish to tell me that I have to 'earn' the right to play the game.

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People aren't arguing for a level playing field or a more skill-based fight, they've got that,

No, no they don't.

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what people really want here is to do what they want, when they want, and how they want, with the click of a button.

Wow, you grasped the concept all by yourself!

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And apparently enough...the devs would rather not hand out that luxury. Otherwise, they'd have done it by now 'eh?

I'm fairly convinced that the same people who created and balanced the skills are not in charge of the rest of the recent changes to Guild Wars. I don't think its possible to be so smart and so stupid at the same time.

Quote:

because PvE and PvP are supposed to be intertwined,

Its only bound one direction; PvP to PvE.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jul 07, 2005, 07:29 AM // 07:29

I agree, Guild Wars is about experimenting the build for your character. For example, my first character is a Warrior, when it come time to choose a second professon, i selected Elementlist (dumbest mistake ever)! Also i agree with the fact that skills (all 120 of them) is there for people to pick, its not my fault for picking the right skills that destory your whole team. I think A-net is slowly updating the game instead of doing a instant fix, which might affect the game's population since there wouldn't be anything new to fixed and people might get bored or tired of this game (i know i am)!

PieXags · Jul 07, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Being that there was little or no point to your post other than saying "wow, oh wow", I'll only respond to those that actually made some amount of sense.

"If you want to win, you have to think. Player gnorance is not a viable agruement against UAX."

I fail to see how UAX will allow more people to win then, afterall it's about thinking right? Not gear?

"No, no they don't"

Nice. I like how you backed that statement up.

"Starting at a level playing field means nothing, after you kill your first brood scale the balance is off. Saying people 'have to work their way up' shows that you are stuck in a MMO mindset. GW is not a MMO."

You do know what the MMO stands for right?
That portion of it...doesn't really relate to working their way up to anything. Also...what the hell are you talking about "brood scales" for? That's in PvE, and that doesn't mean anything unless that person takes the character into PvP. And even then, how the HELL does killing a single brood scale in PvE affect PvP...?

"Wow, just wow. That is like saying rock paper scissors is not balanced because one person can draw paper and the other rock, its not fair unless they both draw scissors. The point is that everyone has access to these skills, how they use them is not my problem."

Yeah, that was called sarcasm on my part, buddy.

"Do you not understand? It is not even because of the grind needed to unlock these skills. This issue of grind is what spawned the arguement over UAX in the first place."

Read that again, and tell me where the point lies.

"It humors me how you mock PvPers while you were probably one of the people crying their heads of for sigil repriceing. As for the calculations, I do them. Unfortunately there is a 'bit' of a difference between paper and the real world."

I mock only those who are practically begging me to do so.

And no, I didn't post in a single thread about the price of sigils. I won one very shortly after I formed my first guild, and never had a problem buying them since.

And you're right, there's a lot of difference between paper and the real world, which leaves me questioning why people keep trying to use math to figure out how long it will take to gain faction. (The point in my last post when I spoke of using math, was also, full of sarcasm.)

"I didn't want to respond to this again, but it is rediculously childish to tell me that I have to 'earn' the right to play the game."

What are you talking about? I never said you had to earn the right to play the game. Did you read what you typed?

"Its only bound one direction; PvP to PvE."

This doesn't make a lick of sense. If the two are BOUND it can go either direction.

"Untill every build has been tried, Guild Wars is about experimenting. Switching attributes, skills, runes, and etc. is what makes new strategies, builds, and keeps GW from becoming stale."

Right...and since you can't easily do that in game as of yet that must be the point of Guild Wars! The point of playing Guild Wars is to have fun, I'd say they pulled that part off pretty good.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jul 07, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

go pie, i agree with most of the stuff you said, althought i would kill anything (even Gwen) to get 15k armors so that i don't die when mob by group of undeads!

PieXags · Jul 07, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Sweet. Someone said "Go Pie".

Do you know how awesome that is?

Obviously my work here is done. Now I can get on with what little life I have. I got a "go pie" out of this thread, there's no reason for me to post on it anymore 'eh? Afterall, the game's how I like it right now. So why do I need to bitch any further?

Cheers.

Sythion · Jul 07, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

PvP characters cannot play in the PvE world. There is still every reason to advance your PvE characters: To do what you made them for, playing PvE.

I do not understand this position. I see no reason why a full unlock would ruin PvE.

The answer to this question is simple. Consider yourself in an RPGers shoes. You want to play this game. You can spend hours slowly unlocking skills, or you could just have them at the click of a finger. Which would you choose? As a PvPer, the answer is obvious. The problem is PvE players will feel the same. Essentially they will have no incentive to playing the RPG part of the game they love.

A-Net knows that we as humans, are hard wired to getting pleasure from getting rewarded. Because the reward was already something we had access to, suddenly there is no pleasure in having obtained it. Would you drive 100 miles to get ice cream when the same ice cream is right across the street? And the journey is not the fun part. Being rewarded for succeeding is.

UAX will KILL the motivation and incentive for a huge percentage of the game population to play PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Just because they screwed up by having it this way is no reason to continue to hold back PvP from what it could (and should) be. Petition for a lot more PvE rewards and you'll no longer care about limiting PvP skillful competition.

PvE only rewards (implemented to be different then standard rewards now, and allowed only in PvE) are one possible answer and the only thinkable way to still provide meaningful rewards for PvE play. The problem is, you now have 2 games. One PvP, and one PvE. Not interchangable because PvEers have PvE only rewards, and PvPers have access to everything. This takes away the gameplay as well, and I want to be able to compete against everyone if I work my character up. I disagree strongly with this, but I wouldn't stop playing the game PvE had it's own rewards and PvP was all skills unlocked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUNA

I also find you comments about RP progression interesting. As far as I can tell what happens to the PvP world should not effect your PvE expereince in the least. To progess in PvE you must invest time, it has been that way in every game and it is that way in Guild Wars, nobody can change that and you'll notice neither are we (PvPers). I don't think there can be any argument about this. Unfortunately for my arguement this game is one instead of two. This means the real agruement is "won't Joe PvE get owned by people with UAX? Thats not fair!"

No, this is not my argument. Assuming that Joe PvE picked a build that was usable in PvP, and that he managed to unlock/buy a fair amt of runes for his build type, he would do just fine. This is true for PvPers now who do just fine with the "disadvantage" of not having UAX. As above, my argument is in fact that PvP does effect PvE play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUNA

Luckily, I am prepared! Joe PvE will most likely have striven for prefection on his PvE character which means he will have the same stuff as a UAX PvP char minus flexibility. Since Joe PvE also will take much longer to complete the game (thus gaining more exp) than the average PvPer he will have accumulated more skill points allowing him to nearly unlock all the skills for his primary and secondary. So in essence, Joe PvE's character will be equal to a PvP only. What Joe PvE will lack however, is flexibility. He will have some leway with his skills but little else. If he really wants to switch secondaries or try something completely different all together I can garuntee one of two things:1. Joe will happily make use of UAX PvP only characters 2. Joe will want to redo the PvE experience with his newly thought up monster killing machine.

I would like to point out a couple of things.
1) Joe has striven for perfection for hours on end to have the same stuff he could have had by clicking a different button. What a waste of time. Joe's obviously an idiot.
2) Since Joe has spent so much time accumulating skill points, he nearly has the same skills he could have had by clicking a different button.
3) The argument FOR UAX is that PvPers need more flexibility without effort, so you propose to flip it and throw that on PvEers?
4) It would in fact be a level playing field if Joe made a PvP only character, since he has access to everything. However it really wouldn't be the character Joe worked on from scratch, would it? All his effort has been wasted, because he could have had all these from the start.
5) I can guarantee you that aside from nostalgia (which takes months or years), there is no reason for a character to go through the campaign again. It was fun, but no one plays an RPG twice in a row without a purpose. Without a purpose, less people will replay it, which means less people to make a group. This leads to less people playing the game because they have to spend so long finding a group. It continues in a vicious cycle until PvE is dead. Thanks to UAX.

What all the people arguing for UAX seem to not understand is that there will be no rewards for PvE play if all skills are unlocked for PvPers. RPGs revolve around their rewards structure, not around the story, and not around the repetitive combat.

Siren · Jul 07, 2005, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I failed so miserably that no less than two people admitted to changing their attitude based on my posts. Others have strongly agreed (along with some disagreements), with some acknowledgement of the soundness of my logic. Comments on yours? Yaaaaaaaawn.

Yes, in the first four or five pages, you had three, maybe four people agreeing with you, and the rest were very pleased with the recent update, and were avid PvPers to boot. Others disagreed with you about how there needs to be UAS. Some even criticized your use of the term "basic" in referring to basic skills, noting that new PvP characters do start with the basic equipment. You then went on to re-define "basic" to include all runes, skills, equipment, etc. That's not basic equipment then. That's advanced equipment. And that would make your argument that players aren't being started with basic equipment invalid, because your definition of "basic" equipment is the complete antithesis of what "basic equipment" really is.

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OK, now I understand this forum game you want to play. It must be called: hide-and-go-seek-the-post. You think of one post not in this thread that's hidden in one of a few thousand other threads and I'm supposed to guess what you are talking about. Sounds fun, but I won't play it unless you turn on UAX first.

How is this paragraph relevant? And the fact that I referred to another thread talking about the exact same things you've been repeating ad nauseum indicates what? That this entire argument doesn't even resemble a dead horse anymore, perhaps? And that it's getting to be a waste of time and space by continually posting threads about it--or posting why we see so much negative feedback, which is an incredibly transparent way to disguise the same old argument/issue.

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Anyway, it seems that under his post there is a very strong refution of his points you so admire:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=37

He seems to go along with what a lot (not all) of what I say all the time, so no reply from me is needed.

In that post? Talking about UAS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by StandardAI

Most PvPers prior to release were against the UAS because thought the game would have about 60 hours of grind to unlock all of the skills, we were dead wrong and now we just want a fix, whether that's the UAS or not we'd like to be able to get all of the skills without having to grind for hours.

He's not screaming for UAS because the game is so terribly unfair and unbalanced. In fact, he's not screaming for it at all. He's merely requesting a change so there wouldn't be multi-hour grind. He says "whether that's the UAS or not," true, but what he's saying (and how he's saying it) is radically different than your vitriolic rhetoric in this thread, arredondo. That's plain to see no matter who reads it, so it would seem prudent that you don't go claiming he is in that post there.

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It comes down to this.. the less you take competition seriously, the more you care about PvE mechanics in PvP than pure skillful competition. I can't make you like it, but that's what it boils down to.

I enjoy competition just as much as the next guy. I enjoy debates. I really love a good game of Smash Bros. Melee. I enjoy PvPing immensely. I love trouncing my foe with a nice Shock and Awe.

Difference is? I know when I'm investing too much emotional energy into it.

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My response to the rest of your post... a multiple choice question.

All things being about equal, with skillful teammates and top level tactics shared by all... which team has the obvious advantage based on hours spent "jumping through hoops" for the league?

A) Has 10% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
B) Has 50% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
C) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from

Take your time.

*** BONUS QUESTION! ***

All things being about equal, with skillful teammates and top level tactics shared by all... which team has the obvious advantage?

A) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
B) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
C) Has 100% of all the skills, runes, and top gear to choose from
D) We find out on the field of battle.

The basis for your questions here is faulty, though, because in order for your question to have merit, we'd have to accept the premise as being true, that there are "perfect" skill teams out there, that there is no margin of human error at all...and that's not the case. So, again, you're using an example that holds little bearing here, because the premise on which you're basing your question is still pure theory to an extremely large extent. There is no such thing as absolute perfect skill. Mistakes will be made, regardless of the tier position.

Mmm...Tuna.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I cannot count on my fingers and toes the number of times I've gotten someone down to about 30 health before they were healed. (or vise versa)

And you're positive this was due to mods? Armor health bonuses? "Of Fortitude"? Runes? There's nothing else it could have been due to?

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My hamstring doesn't cripple, my smiting monk doesn't smite, my energy drain doesn't help, I'm not knocking down with gale or doing damage with chain lightning, nor am I casting spirit shackles or using an adren setup, and my conjure phantasm doesn't do any damage. Why? Because I haven't unlocked them yet. What is the point of a rock<paper<scissors setup if you can't use paper?

But how is this a precedent for an UAX feature? They have the PvP unlocking now. What comes next will be tweaks and streamlining (very likely, I'd think). It seems like jumping the gun like that, saying UAX is needed because we need to have all our skills is haphazard. You're (not you personally, but you get the idea) going from one mild extreme to the complete opposite extreme, with no consideration that there may very well be a middle ground. Know what I mean? There are much better solutions to this thing than UAX. I view UAX as the nuclear option, honestly.

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UAX isn't about items, its about upgrades and skills. Everyone get max dmg weapons and max al armor.

Thanks for clearing that up. I started losing track of what exactly people were wanting round here.

With that said, I still don't see how needing to unlock upgrades and skills necessarily immediately supports UAX, instead not merely streamlining/tweaking the current unlock system(s).

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I think this is the major wrong turn for anti-UAX people. There are very few skills in this game that are useless. The reason why some appear 'useless' is because they are used in specialized builds and are not stand alone skills. This is also the reason why we see so many wa/mos; they are simple and work. However, if you want to win simple isn't going to cut it. In short, yes, having all the skills really matters.

If a skill is specialized to the point of only being effective in that particular, specific, 1/100000 build...how is that not largely useless or in some cases, fully useless? What are the chances that a player will have to defend against it enough to warrant UAX? Sure, there are many people playing GW, all testing various builds, designing new ones...but how often do you see Backfire, and how often do you see someone with say, Ether Lord?

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Therein is the difference between you and I.

All the talk of PvPers avoiding arguements is kinda getting on my nerves. There are countless resopnces to almost every anti-UAS argument. However, if you do not find them sufficient I will be more than happy to speak for the PvP crowd and address your concerns untill you are satisfied with the responce.

The argument that the game is time instead of skill? To win with basic weapons, skills, etc.--and I mean basic...not some exaggerated skewing of the meaning--, one still needs to use skill. In Arenas, in Tombs, in GvG...to unlock things, particularly with the new faction system...skill is certainly required. There are some here who have been outright denying that, repeating a theory that better items automatically pre-empts player skill. But it's a theory and still hasn't been proven through cold, hard data.

The faction point system is a major step in the right direction for those who want to unlock through PvP, and with some more tweaking and streamlining, I'm confident skill will play an even larger role in the unlocking process, which would effectively castrate the need for UAX. It seems like people are hitting a few speedbumps in a system that's only been out for a little over a week and already prepared to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as it were. Know what I mean?