Curse

dogbreath17 · Jul 03, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

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PvP is STILL infected with PvE play mechanics

This is a personal belief based on how the game plays. Perhaps this is a valid and an interesting idea to analyze to a point. However GW has always been this way and is currently this way. For a short time during BETA testing UAS was allowed for testing purposes.

Some gamers came to think this was the way it was going to be in game once retail. But it is not the way the guys developed the game or intended it to be played. Its not the game ANET wants to create.

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You seem to feel there is a comfortable melding of the two vastly different play mechanics.

ANET is in many people’s minding actually very successfully doing this. Its obvious to me the faction thing was well thought out and implemented and probably was in the design process many months back. I too thought it was impossible to combine the two.

I was just thinking of the simplicity or actually the difficulty required in trying to combine the two. I am completely surprised they have come as close as they have and continue to work toward. Its as others have pointed out actually not quite new but a new interpretation and implementation of older ideas. It really is quite aggressive and future thinking. They have actually almost reinvented the wheel not by changing the shape but by inventing rubber. Who needs rubber when you got wood, well that’s the idea but give it a chance and you will see the fan base wheel come to grasp it.

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Not broke as in unplayable, but broke as in frustrating their otherwise excited players who wish to play the style they wish to play.

What was once frustrating is now becoming exceedingly easy to most especially as they learn more and more game mechanics. The mass of the fan base is moving forward and adapting. Time has passed.

As I said in another post:

With more and more of the casual players learning the intricacies of changing professions and capturing elites in PvE and the faction bonus of PvP the developers have created a level of satisfication for the majority of their players.

The expansions will introduce new skills, and items you will need them for PvP and again you will have choice of PvPing for it or PvEing. Nothing will be free. LOL what can you say. Nothing. Either you have been playing the game and understand it or have not but are thinking of clever ways of tearing it down.

Go to Draknors Forge, anywhere high level and ascended characters are and for every one character understand in a week they could each have 2-3 PvP only characters with 1 elite/based builds with all the necessary support skills. Its not as bad as some people try to make it out. UAS is dead.

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But some people want to play PvE. Well to leave Pre-Ascalon, you have to win 100 Arena matches. Ready to go to the next town? Win another 50 arena matches please. Do you have to unlock skills along the way? Of course not, we're forcing competitive play mechanics on you whether you like it or not. ALL skills are unlocked from the start except elites... you have to hold Hall of Heroes for 10 straight games to get an elite.

Interesting hypothetical we have here. But the thing is the fan base is surprisingly very adaptive and both PvP and PvE and they would adapt either way if its fun. Hypothetical questions are tricky at best. If suddenly ANET were to require PvP victories for elites what would happen? Well PvEers might complain a bit, but probably would start Guilding more and soon it would be a moot problem. Either you play the game because you like it or don’t. Game’s and companies tend to shy away from radical shifts, mostly giving and not taking away when possible. They also tend to try to stay close to their main idea or focus regardless of shifting opinion however sharp or loud. It obvious ANET wants PvE to some extent to be the jumping off point or introduction to PvP, period. They are not going to give 100% everything to PvP because they simply want people to play both even though you really dont have too. Its their game and they never said PvP was going to be unlock all.

They only said it was skill based and that they were going to try to limit the time necessary to be competitive. Try is the key word. Skill based means many things, skill in knowing the game, skill in able to be a contributing member to a guild, skill in knowing how to do the quests, skill in learning and knowing the skills and skill learned in how to be a member of a successful team.

Anyone can be very competitive very quickly you dont need all elites for your primary profession and you dont need all superior runes its rubbish.

Skill takes time. It’s a game, ANETS game and its called Guild Wars and it has PvE and PvP. You only want to PvP now with all the skills, everything unlocked but ANET didn’t design that game for you. Anyone complaining is complaining about the way the game was designed and was meant to be played by ANET. That is ok to a certain extent but at a certain point it’s a waste of time. Yes it kind of fun to play hypothetical but there is this game called GW and its pretty good how about playing that one or not?

I personally think the Mods should start taking a aggressive stance and moving all posts about game design issues to Sardelac Sanitarium. Let people rant in there all they want.

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Actually all posts about hypotheticals, about how the game should be in a particular gamers mind should be in Sardelac Sanitarium [For those in the Sanitarium, a fine line seperates genius and madness. Game Suggestions]

Yes everyone should be allowed to think of new games and new ideas. But tearing down a game because it does not play the way you want or give you what you want fast enough is a waste of everyone’s time in general.

Heck I have a thousand ideas about Guild Wars. I also have my personal idea of the best game. But I am going to play GW and not compare it to that game. If I have suggestions about improving GW they go in Sardelac Sanitarium.

These posts by people about UAS never had any merit. Never did they and they were for the most part a complete waste of good forum space for WEEKS.

Of course by posting in this thread I bump it for which I should be shot but I am tired as many of these long and numerious complaints about GW and PvP.

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 07:38 AM // 07:38

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Originally Posted by Siren

Let's flip this around, since the point is going right over your head, it seems.

Let's say you win in a PvP match. How can you be so sure that you won because of what items you had, what items the other team didn't have, etc? How do you know what the other team had, apart from just seeing what kind of armor and weapons they were using? Keep in mind that you cannot accurately assess item stats based on appearance.

So how do you know what's really going on in the match? How do you know what really went on in the match? Unless you took a survey of each team's equipment, logged what weapons, what mods, what upgrades, what runes, what types of armor, what types of protection, etc., before the match, then had a multi-hour discussion session with the other team afterwards to talk about what each of you did, how you did it, when you switched items, etc...you have no way of knowing at all whether items had anything to do with it.

So for all you know, you just sucked in that match and your armor and l337 weapons and runes saved your ass and the opposing team's items and equipment weren't l337 enough to stand up against your onslaught.

But on the other hand, maybe it wasn't armor, the weapons, the runes, etc., and maybe your win was actually based on how well you strategized and organized your strikes.

And if you lost the match, do you blame the loss on items, or skill? Keep in mind that you have no way of knowing just what the other team was using, apart from the spell monitors. Seems to me that if you really can't know for sure that it was in fact items that decided the match and not actual player skill...you really shouldn't be making blanket statements like "PvP sucks unless everyone is given everything!"

Without knowing for sure, you're just conjecturing and wasting our time...you're just dealing in "What ifs" instead of "What is."

This is the entire point, for me. You've made it perfectly.

I can't know why I won or lost. That in of itself is a reason to provide a level playing field.

I'm sure most people don't care. But I want to know that I lost because I was outplayed, or won because I have skills (and proud of it, when that's the case!).

I can't know that now. Maybe I won because I'm good. Or maybe the other guys just haven't played two hundred hours of PvE like I have.

All of these things like Guild Ladder and Tomb of Primeval Kings: Right now, they measure a whole bunch of things in relation to each other. These things include:

Playing Skill
Playing Time (grinding)
Luck

And a bunch of other stuff. Boy, I'd like to be able to look at the Guild Ladder and know that the higher ranked guilds are generally more skilled, not just guilds that have played more. But right now, [i]I just can't know that[i].

So you make a great point. This is a reason to create level playing fields, not a reason to keep them away.

Now, I'll say that I'm not actually asking for any kind of full unlock. But a level playing field would be nice. See also: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27583

Santosh · Jul 03, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

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Originally Posted by arredondo

Bwahahahaha! Save your sympathy buddy... I'll get along fine without it. I've been playing sports and competitive activities my entire life. For almost 10 years I've been a highly ranked fighting game player whose competed and won tournies all around the country. I've been into FPS teamplay for at least five years. I can safely say I likely know a LOT more about what works and doesn't work well when it comes to describing the common traits of serious competitive activities.

No one can go through my posts, whether they agree or disagree, and tell me that I'm not making strong logical points to present my case. Many things I prefer in PvP I don't even mention because I do recognize when my personal opinion may conflict what is obviously best for the PvP game. I wouldn't be writing all of this if, as it stands today, I didn't believe that the PvP portion of this awesome game didn't have a chance to become one of the true all-time greats. It's just sad that Arena.net feels it needs to hold their baby back from reaching full maturity.

Arredondo, if you are so sure about what you're saying, then why not start your own gaming software company and show us how it should be done. If you are so sure about your logic, then why fight it here? If you can make a better product, then make it yourself? Make your own game and sell it!

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 07:48 AM // 07:48

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Originally Posted by PieXags

So to say that it favors PvE is just a lie. Plain and simple. Care to argue any of the things I said in my post? You've played through PvE arredondo, you know what I'm talking about up there. Ask any PvE player how difficult it is to try and find that perfect weapon, just try and unlock all the skills never entering a PvP arena. It's a lot more difficult purely doing PvE, and...a lot more repetitive, less skill-based, and that just plain blows. PvE is fun, but the best way to play is to play it all. Plain and simple.

Anything stating "the best way to play" is obviously purely opinion. You emphasize it like a fact.

You even use "Plain and simple" twice to emphasize things that are clearly opinions. Saying something "favors PvE" is an opinion. It's too grossly vague and broad to be anything else.

I'm all for people voicing their opinions, but opinions are never "plain and simple". Leave out the rhetoric next time and just say what you like. Please.

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PvE people don't have near the luxuries PvP only characters do when it comes to attribute switching, build testing, and general competition in the game. So if you want to talk about how PvE characters have it so easy, go unlock everything you can with one character using faction just by doing PvE.

People have brought these points up a number of times. Here's what I don't understand: All players have access to all of these things. Why do so many players seem to take an "us vs. them" stance?

If PvP is made better, it's made better for all players. Anyone who is strictly playing PvE shouldn't care at all about what happens in PvP. And everyone else can just go ahead and make a PvP character. There's nothing that another player can do, in general, that you can't, whoever you are. Whether you call yourself PvP, PvE, or both, you have the same options.

All the "luxuries" belong to all players of Guild Wars, whether they are PvE luxuries or PvP luxuries. Can't we all just agree to be greedy and demand Arena Net give us all the luxuries in the world like normal forum members?

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 09:10 AM // 09:10

You see that's exactly my point!

"Why do so many players seem to take an "us vs. them" stance?"

Exactly, exactly! You SHOULDN'T take that stance on it at all, not by any means.

Then why, you ask, did I go and post such a huge post stating views for the extremists?

Arredondo didn't seem to understand anything else, so I figured I'd show him how you could look at it using his logic.

If you'll look back at my other posts you'll see what I mean, and why I had to do it.

"For the love of God...can we PLEASE stop talking as if the "sides" are uneven?!

What sides?! It's GuildWars, PvP and PvE affect one another.

There are hardly ANY PURE PvP players out there.

And I know 2, that's right 2 people who only like PvE.

Most everyone who continues to play this game likes BOTH of them, they like GUILD WARS. They don't like half of it, they like the game.

If you're asking the devs to "pick sides", well that's, and I'll say it, just plain idiotic.

They won't do that, they're not building "PvP" for the PvP players, and they're not building "PvE" for the PvE players, they're building the game for those that like to play it. Plain and simple.

Honestly, how many games do you go around complaining about HALF of it?! You either like the GAME or you don't. It's not "well I like this half" or "well I don't like that half", it's either the right game for you or it isn't.

So long as you keep talking about PvP and PvE like they're two different sides not meant to both be played, then you're talking without reason or purpose, because that won't lead anywhere."

That's a post of mine previously, obviously I don't think you should view the two as two halves, I just needed to show him a few different sides of the argument.

And in regards to my opinions, in the post of mine above this one I explained just how flawed it is to say that the game is in favor of PvE players, I noticed that nobody's taken the time to respond to that post so I'm assuming what I said was in fact, correct.

=======================

And in response to the second half of your post, I'm going to assume you said some of that just for laughs. Especially the last part.

"There's nothing that another player can do, in general, that you can't, whoever you are. Whether you call yourself PvP, PvE, or both, you have the same options."

---You're absolutely right, and I think you'll gather from all of my posts, that I have absolutely no problem with how the options are currently set, because in my opinion that's how they're best. And until I see valid explainations as to why "PvE" players are favored more, I'm going to stick to it.

The current system favors one group of people---those who play the entire game. It allows for balance, proper usage of skill in PvP, and a fair fight when people bring their PvE characters into PvP for a good time, and that's exactly the right way to pull it off, IMO.

Unless there's ever a good reason to unbalance the game, UAX won't be implemented.

The Ages · Jul 03, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

The Problem is while Guild wars is all one game PvP and PvE Play alot Different than eachother. There is bound to be alot of people who like one more than the other, Some who just hate the other.

When you have a game like this its best if one does not have to step in the way of Progress of another, Currently the PvE System steps all over the PvP, Its the limiting factor of what you can Accomplish on the other side of the coin.

Like it or not, PvP vs PvE is a big Issue because they designed the issue.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

If you like PvE mechanics (exploring, unlocking, etc.) and hate PvP (competition), you have 100+ hours of uninterrupted enjoyment. The opposite is NOT true for those who like PvP and don't care for PvE. Stop pretending that this isn't true. You may prefer it that way, but the people who don't aren't wrong in their feelings either.

Weezer_Blue · Jul 03, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Anyone who says we need to earn skills and everything else, or that we want it on a silver platter, is quite clueless of what we actually want. The people that are pissed off right now - the PvP community that stuck around after release, or just don't like grind - are angry because they don't want to sit around and play through 500 matches to unlock half a build so they can play through 500 more so they can play through 1000 more with a failed build attempt. Not everything that looks good on paper actually works, and we lack the freedom for not only build experimentation, but also for just fun. "Wee! We won with that same damn spike damage build again!" ... sounds like fun.... 50,000 times... PvP, for anybody but a diehard MMO grind monkey, is not about the advantage you have due to your hours spent, or how well you use your crappy limited skill library. It's about how well you did versus the other guy. For it to truly be player vs player, and not player + stuff vs player, then you have to remove the imbalance. The imbalance being "stuff". That is to say, either give it to both sides, or remove it entirely. As removing Skills and Runes isn't an obvious option, the better solution is to give both players access to everything. (this is where you should start bitching at me like you usually do_). In other words, UAS and UAR are, and still remain, the only way to achieve a balanced playing field, and for any PvPer except for those accustomed to the grindish style PvP of every other RPG ever made, fun. This game is a mixing of genres, or so we thought when we bought it. We though "awesome! it's like an RTS + an RPG + an FPS + ect." But when it released it was like "look.... another MMORPG.... yawn..."

Loviatar · Jul 03, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

if i am worng on this correct me

i think that the official beta testers had/have still a direct line to input bugs ideas for improvement and complaints.

it is certain that the must level dingaholics put up a screaming fight but we still have the level cap

i am just as certain the rabid so called level playing field UALL had their voices heard as well and we do not have the unlock

both extreams are leaving or have left leaving the people who are having enough fun playing the game that Anet made rather than trying to force Anets game into the mold that fits a very small fravtion of the game world player base

john little · Jul 03, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

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Originally Posted by arredondo

If you like PvE mechanics (exploring, unlocking, etc.) and hate PvP (competition), you have 100+ hours of uninterrupted enjoyment. The opposite is NOT true for those who like PvP and don't care for PvE. Stop pretending that this isn't true. You may prefer it that way, but the people who don't aren't wrong in their feelings either.

nope, but at the same time do they really need to post the same old threads over and over again each day? I'm pretty sure anet knows that some people would like Unlock Everything (since that is the crux of what the 'omg i only want to PvP' PvP'ers want), why not wait and see how they respond rather than criticising everything they do? All the moaning at the moment is not in any way constructive and i doubt flame-fest posts are the ones anet look forward to reading.

Tuna · Jul 03, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

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Originally Posted by PieXags

A PvPer doesn't have to play near 600 hours of PvE, what the hell are you talking about? The only reason PvE is now necessary is to find the priests in the towns. Other than that, you don't need to do anything else, no quests to unlock your skills, no grinding for runes, just finding the priests, you can do it in a day.

True, the new system helps a lot with runes and weapon upgrades. It does not however, do much for skills as I would wager that it is quicker to unlock them through PvE, which will take you roughly 600 hours. If you're not doing GvG to get your faction it will take a similar number to unlock runes/weapons.

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And to the...

"
Problem is PvPers don't want to slave away for 600 hours to unlock all the skills and PvEers don't want to be at a disadvantage in PvP."

The problem is the last part.

No, the problem is both parts.

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They aren't "PvEers" if they ALSO play PvP. Which is exactly my point! PvE and PvP are SUPPOSED to both be played, those who play PvE and PvP are the ones who this system was made for, and that's how it's going to be.

I don't think you realize that I am agrueing to help these exact people. I have most of the junk in this game unlocked and will have everything within a month. UAX will do absolutely nothing for me other than give a much more dynamic PvP scene.

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It is my belief that the dev's won't ever implement a UAX for the PvP players simply because they don't want people to only play half their game, they want people to play all of their game, that's how it was made.

They do only want you to play half their game; the PvE half. If it were otherwise there wouldn't be a 600 hour prerequisite to PvP.

Mimi Miyagi · Jul 03, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Where did you guys concoct this "600 hour" number from anyway? I can ascend a character through normal play in only a couple of days, and finsih the game through casual play in a week. There are players that are rushed to Droknar's Forge within a couple of hours of play, simply to unlock the elites, and to get the uber armor.

The rest of the time is though farming, doing quests for skills/skill points, or simply getting all of the map open. None of which are a requirement to play PVP. Do players do some of it for PVP? Sure, but they don't have to.

While I do play PVP with my guild, I don't spend a lot of time doing it. I've managed to get about 400 faction points though light PVP play since the patch, I'm sure that more dedicated PVP players have thousands of faction points to unlock items/skills/runes/whatever.

The new faction point system isn't too hard, points are easy to get even if you spend even a small part of your time PVP - if you choose to. People are just complaining for the sake of complaining - perhaps in their mind their gripes are justified, but reality is quite different. People use extremes to illustrate their points, when in truth, it's not nearly as bad as either side makes it out to be.

Mimi Miyagi · Jul 03, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

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Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

This is the entire point, for me. You've made it perfectly.

I can't know why I won or lost. That in of itself is a reason to provide a level playing field.

I'm sure most people don't care. But I want to know that I lost because I was outplayed, or won because I have skills (and proud of it, when that's the case!).

I can't know that now. Maybe I won because I'm good. Or maybe the other guys just haven't played two hundred hours of PvE like I have.

All of these things like Guild Ladder and Tomb of Primeval Kings: Right now, they measure a whole bunch of things in relation to each other. These things include:

Playing Skill
Playing Time (grinding)
Luck

And a bunch of other stuff. Boy, I'd like to be able to look at the Guild Ladder and know that the higher ranked guilds are generally more skilled, not just guilds that have played more. But right now, [i]I just can't know that[i].

So you make a great point. This is a reason to create level playing fields, not a reason to keep them away.

Now, I'll say that I'm not actually asking for any kind of full unlock. But a level playing field would be nice. See also: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27583

Just what uber magical items you envision that exist in this game that unbalance a PVP match so badly that you get owned and can't understand why?

Just what uber ltem exists in the game that makes a spike group killers? What about that FOTM Ranger spirit spam build? What about those wacky Koreans, and their poison/life drain/hex you until you're a puddle of jelly build? Or a monk smiter group? Seed ball group?

Answer: Nothing. You got owned by a creative guild who has developed tactics using simple skills and professions. That "Godly" Chaos Axe (please read that with the sarcasm I intended) didn't beat you. Lightning spike, Lightning Orb, and Chain Lightning aren't even elite skills. You can buy (fairly cheaply, i might add) ANY rune you wish except for those few Superior runes everone craves, but in the end, they won't defeat a team that works well together with a creative use of skills and strategy.

Watch what other teams are doing during a match, and you'll see that spellbreaker, life bond, healing seed, strip enchantments, lightning strike, and teamspeak beat you, not a max dmg flaming doohickee of godliness.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Where does he find the items to do the things he wants? Play through PvE. Where does he buy the items he wants? PvE?. Where does he get the gold to make his purchases? Play through PvE. What if he wants pure PvP to get those things? Play through PvE, and s....l.....o.....w....l....y earn faction points. All the while he is losing (at times) in part due to a system rule set that does not allow him to fully stretch out his creative legs when it comes to forming and executing a vaible strategy that he knows will work. Not without first going through hundreds of hours doing PvE unlocking exercises.

OK, so he finally got the ONE set of skills he needs to defeat that ONE strategy he anticipates. What does he have to do to access ALL the options he needs to skillfully defeat the hundreds of other team build ideas out there? Play through PvE. And devote hundreds of hours to "earning" faction points, which is itself a PvE play mechanic.

PvE fans don't need to do more than one PvP play mechanic (forced competition) and they can be happy with what Guild Wars offer. Sadly, PvP fans don't have the same option in avoidin useless PvE mechanics when they want purely skilled based competition for both sides.

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Alright, since there's a whole lot of beatin' around the bush here I guess I'll pull off a similar bit.

Arredondo, who the hell are you to say what's "PvE mechanics" and what's "PvP mechanics". Are you judging it off an FPS game? If this is the case than your logic is flawed from the start because this is NOT an FPS game, this is a game, for the most part, like no other. You can't just say "Oh, unlocking things is just a PvE mechanic, it shouldn't be in PvP" because that is YOUR opinion and nobody has pointed that out yet. It's your opinion and nothing more.

You know the new Battlefield 2 requires you to UNLOCK the better guns by playing through the game a while and accomplishing more. You don't have everything given to you from the start. Does that mean that it's not using "PvP" mechanics? Hell no.

Quit saying there are "PvE" mechanics in this PvP, because if it's in PvP it's OBVIOUSLY a PvP mechanic as well, you just don't like it.

I'm trying to figure out how the hell you got the idea it was a PvE only mechanic anyways. Just because you have to unlock stuff in PvE doesn't mean it's a "PvE" mechanic, or that they're favoring PvE more than PvP. You can't just say it like that, it's your opinion and nothing more.

And I guess that's all that needs to be said really, a good many of the good points in these threads, including a few in my posts, haven't been touched, so I'll let other people discuss those.

Tuna · Jul 04, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03

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Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Where did you guys concoct this "600 hour" number from anyway? I can ascend a character through normal play in only a couple of days, and finsih the game through casual play in a week. There are players that are rushed to Droknar's Forge within a couple of hours of play, simply to unlock the elites, and to get the uber armor.

Ok, the realistic number is 400 hours to unlock all skills.

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The rest of the time is though farming, doing quests for skills/skill points, or simply getting all of the map open. None of which are a requirement to play PVP. Do players do some of it for PVP? Sure, but they don't have to.

I don't think you understand what competitive game play is.

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While I do play PVP with my guild, I don't spend a lot of time doing it. I've managed to get about 400 faction points though light PVP play since the patch, I'm sure that more dedicated PVP players have thousands of faction points to unlock items/skills/runes/whatever.

Lets see, you got 400 faction points and an elite costs 3,000. On that time scale we can go back to the 600 number.

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The new faction point system isn't too hard, points are easy to get even if you spend even a small part of your time PVP - if you choose to. People are just complaining for the sake of complaining - perhaps in their mind their gripes are justified, but reality is quite different. People use extremes to illustrate their points, when in truth, it's not nearly as bad as either side makes it out to be.

The new faction point system is flawed in a couple of ways, perticularly in the distribution of the points (imo).

The Ages · Jul 04, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Anyone who says we need to earn skills and everything else, or that we want it on a silver platter, is quite clueless of what we actually want. The people that are pissed off right now - the PvP community that stuck around after release, or just don't like grind - are angry because they don't want to sit around and play through 500 matches to unlock half a build so they can play through 500 more so they can play through 1000 more with a failed build attempt. Not everything that looks good on paper actually works, and we lack the freedom for not only build experimentation, but also for just fun. "Wee! We won with that same damn spike damage build again!" ... sounds like fun.... 50,000 times... PvP, for anybody but a diehard MMO grind monkey, is not about the advantage you have due to your hours spent, or how well you use your crappy limited skill library. It's about how well you did versus the other guy. For it to truly be player vs player, and not player + stuff vs player, then you have to remove the imbalance. The imbalance being "stuff". That is to say, either give it to both sides, or remove it entirely. As removing Skills and Runes isn't an obvious option, the better solution is to give both players access to everything. (this is where you should start bitching at me like you usually do_). In other words, UAS and UAR are, and still remain, the only way to achieve a balanced playing field, and for any PvPer except for those accustomed to the grindish style PvP of every other RPG ever made, fun. This game is a mixing of genres, or so we thought when we bought it. We though "awesome! it's like an RTS + an RPG + an FPS + ect." But when it released it was like "look.... another MMORPG.... yawn..."

While I would like UAS I Dont think it would be right, Not that im a PvE Fan but nothing is more Frustrating than someone getting what you earned in 500 Hours in 1second. I Would just much rather have a Full alternative way to unlock in PvP without the need for PvE, Not a button that is an Insult to the work PvE Players have spent time into.

arredondo · Jul 04, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Having to "earn" gear from the league in order to start on a level playing field with those who can already use that gear against you is squeezing a PvE play mechanic into a PvP activity. Screaming and yelling won't change that fact.

It's not a wonder that you don't spend hundereds of hours to "unlock" gear to the league's satisfaction in order to compete with the same stuff your opponent uses against you in countless sports, games, and other serious competitive activities. Screaming about it won't change these truths, as I'm merely defining the obvious.

As for BF2, of the only review I've seen that mentions the weapon unlocking, they had this to say:

Quote:

Also intriguing is a small element of persistence to the game, where your performance and abilities are tracked as long as you play on certain ranked servers. While much of this is just to keep track of your performance, there's also an element akin to experience points. Perform decently and they'll accumulate, and unlock optional alternate weapons for classes.

While it's an interesting motivation to play more, you have to note that it undermines the level playing field of the game slightly, in that people who play longer don't just have more approaches open due to their increased knowledge of the game, but necessarily due to their increased arsenal.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59758

Like I said, depending on how anyone shoehorns it in, forcing PvE play mechanics in PvP activities (live or electronic) UNDERMININES COMPETITIVE GAMING. Even early versions of the retail CS:Condition Zero upgrade (before Source) experimented with PvE play mechanics and it failed. After months of development, they threw it out for the version that was eventually released. Why? Because unlocking PvE play mechanics go against the idea of pure skillful competition.

arredondo · Jul 04, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ages

While I would like UAS I Dont think it would be right, Not that im a PvE Fan but nothing is more Frustrating than someone getting what you earned in 500 Hours in 1second. I Would just much rather have a Full alternative way to unlock in PvP without the need for PvE, Not a button that is an Insult to the work PvE Players have spent time into.

I wasn't insulted playing Half Life 2 PvE when I "earned" the gravity gun midway through the game even though I used it in Deathmatch PvP mode already. In all activities, when it comes to competition, it is your skillful use of all that is available that determines the outcome - no influence by PvE mechanics imposed by "the league" at all.

Getting stuff over time is a PvE play mechanic. Outwitting and out playing your opponent when you both start on a level playing field with all options open is a PvP play mechanic. It hurts the playability of one when it is squeezed into the playability of the other. I don't want to earn PvE access to Lion's Arch by winning 100 PvP matches either.

The Ages · Jul 04, 2005, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I wasn't insulted playing Half Life 2 PvE when I "earned" the gravity gun midway through the game even though I used it in Deathmatch PvP mode already. In all activities, when it comes to competition, it is your skillful use of all that is available that determines the outcome - no influence by PvE mechanics imposed by "the league" at all.

Getting stuff over time is a PvE play mechanic. Outwitting and out playing your opponent when you both start on a level playing field with all options open is a PvP play mechanic. It hurts the playability of one when it is squeezed into the playability of the other. I don't want to earn PvE access to Lion's Arch by winning 100 PvP matches either.

Not only is Half-Lifes 2 Single player and Multiplayer not linked togehter in any way, but there is NO unlock system in the game you find the weapons reguardless if your in Single player or Multiplayer. Your trying to compare a game that has Nothing incommon except they both have PvP.

UAS Would be the best thing for the pure PvP Players but this is just not Pure PvP There has to be a balanced alternative to be fair.