Curse

arredondo · Jun 30, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

You guys know why PvP-focused players are ticked off at this kind of system? It's because the mindset of "fun" for them is completely different from the PvE-focused players. PvE players see the gaining of things as a goal to be fought hard towards, but PvP players think the real goal is outwitting your opponent using the tools available to all. Arena.net insists on putting an elaborate PvE system in PvP where it doesn't fit.

Hundreds (and I mean HUNDREDS) of gameplay hours just to get the same tools as the grinding experts out there is no fun in the long run. Fun for PvP-focused players begins when they can actually begin fully implementing 100% of their strats, builds and ideas.

These weekly bandaids to not having UAS and UAR only stretch out an endured and unwanted process. It will never solve the problem, and is disappointing to see PvP players with waning interest post their concerns because they simply want to play PvP the same way as all other serious PvP activities and games. Guild Wars' PvP system is the only one that makes you significantly grind before being able to equally match up with your teammates and opponents for battle.

Guild Wars' PvP players, like any other competitive title or sport, want to gather their fully armed friends together to battle OTHER fully armed opponents... outwitting and outplaying them into submission. Hours played doesn't matter, remmber? That is our source of fun, and plodding through some hyperextended unlocking system adds boredom and disinterest to a facet of the game that doesn't need it.

You don't ask chess players to "earn" their access to a Bishop. You don't expect a 3-man basketball team to make 1,000 outside shots just to have permission to bring on players 4 and 5. You don't ask players of the mega-successful Counterstrike to get 500 headshots before you award them a Desert Eagle pistol. If Arena.net wants people to flock to and support their excellent PvP engine, why make a pyramid scheme that only awards hours played from the already-top guilds? Gaining items should not be an extended means to an end when it comes to PvP. That's what PvE is for by rewarding time played with tangibles. We just want to play unhindered.

It's not a matter of PvE or PvP being better or worse than the other. It's just that they have two vastly different needs. Let PvE players play to explore, unlock and buy - add content that expands on that. Let PvP players play to build, strategize and win - remove barriers that prevent that. You keep adding PvE play mechanics to PvP, and PvP players don't like it.

The less you mix up the core needs of these two areas (both of which I like on their own BTW), the less complaint threads these sites will be bombarded with. Get rid of attruibute refund points outside of battle. Allow full UAS and UAR. Then add any content and features you want to PvE.

Van the Warrior · Jun 30, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

actually i thought people were whinging because they cant sell their gold UNID armors anymore lmao

hydrak · Jun 30, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I'm not complaining. After this patch, it is easier to win in tombs now. On average, there are more noobs in PUGs.

Acan Vishnu · Jun 30, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Guildwars isn't an FPS. It isn't an RTS. It isn't Chess. It isn't Basketball.

So why do you keep complaining that ArenaNet doesn't treat it like it is?

Cap'n Hoek · Jun 30, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

PvP players don't like it.

I play PvP. I like it.

kaya · Jun 30, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

...in your opinion. (you forgot to mention that)

I like the fact that you have to earn you way to being good. not just having skill from playing games all your life. ...in my opinion

FLAMED!

Weezer_Blue · Jun 30, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

I agree with the original poster, and I find it a shame that his intelligently written post was so quickly flamed by people, as most are. "in my oppinion" doesn't need to be stated. I'm writing it... I'm not writing for YOUR oppinion, now, am I? They may be the same... but still...

Anyway... great post.

Principa Discordia · Jun 30, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I've just deleted pointless flames and spam. Keep it constructive or I'll be forced to lock the thread down permanently.

stumpy · Jun 30, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

its unfortunate that you have such a deflated opinion about the game. Maybe I should bug report that for you 'arredondo requests a silver plater combo 1 please, hold the fries'

I am a pvp player and real strategy and outwitting your opponent doesn't come in the for m a UAS and UAR ... regardless of whether you have X elite skills or non elite ... if your going to lose ... its not because of the game ... its your lack to outwit an opponent. You will never see what he/she is bringing to the table ... so your reaction time and ability to adapt is where your strengths are. I can effectively make it to the hoh with no elite skills and skills collected up to lions arch. (represents about 10 hours game time at longest for me)

If this game is too challenging thats one thing (which you better not say it is because an 11 year old first time pc gaming daughter can play it)

Please don't give the rest of us a bad name ... when stating a comment from 'username X ...' follow it up with imo (in my opinion) ... frankly I outta look you up in game and kick your azz because your posting a whining thread that makes you look as bad as henchment fodder. Please don't lay that on the pvp community because many of us are extremely skilled and can work with what we have to get us ... FTW ... I am a champion ... and I am very competitive like many others .... imo you need to work on your strategy

Dalia · Jun 30, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Hmm, well, since my original post was deleted, let me see if I can rephrase it.

To answer the thread-starter's question, the "reason" is that the same person(s) keeps starting negative threads.

Dalia

Cap'n Hoek · Jun 30, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalia

To answer the thread-starter's question, the "reason" is that the same person(s) keeps starting negative threads.

A valid point.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

I am a pvp player and real strategy and outwitting your opponent doesn't come in the for m a UAS and UAR ... regardless of whether you have X elite skills or non elite ... if your going to lose ... its not because of the game ... its your lack to outwit an opponent.

You are wrong stumpy.

Against most opponents that may be true, but as has been said MANY times, there are matches in which the outcome is decided by gear. If two evenly matched teams play each other and the only thing different between them is gear, it'll show.

In any competitive venue the amount separating 1st from 2nd place is very small. I explained months ago that a difference of under 100 ms of ping imbalance can be enough to throw a match out for me against a good opponent in CS (well, DoD really). A 10th of a second is HUGE. Now, I'll still demolish 95-99% of the players out there for example, but against those in my bracket of play that difference in ping is catastrophic. To have a chance against another smart team, with a good build and great gear you need that kind of gear/skills etc. I'm not sure exactly where the line is for me in DoD, but I know that about 30-40ms is a noticeable disadvantage against a good opponent, while I've played down 200 ms fine against a public crowd.

If you can't understand this then you've likely never been in real competitions before - if you are in the top fraction of a percent in a field you notice how small a difference can affect an outcome. I could spot many people a pawn playing chess, but against someone good that'll ensure my loss. In fact, most randomly matched up-non-chess students would probably wrangle through games minus a pawn just fine vs each other - it makes little difference to their game, but at higher levels, in which endgames are decided by a pawn advantage, or more often by positional advantage alone a single pawn is a game maker.

Uzul · Jun 30, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

another reason: a lot players are very happy and playing the game all the time - there is no time to post a lot when you are in tyria all day long ^^
reminds me of my "less complaining - more gaming" thread...

/point
/laugh
/cheer
/dance *

[edit] i agree about the fact that the unlocked skills/gear can bring small advantages which can decide wether one team wins or not - but it's doesnt need any real grind to get good gear (i know some people prefer getting it all at once, but this ain't css or chess here, after all this is sort of a rpg)

arredondo · Jun 30, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

PvP is supposed to be taken seriously, right? These issues matter, and all that is being asked is that just like any other serious competition, allow all PvP players to at least start with equal gear (UAS aand UAR).

Until then, it remains an "elitist" sport for the teams who've put in 100s of hours for full gear access over those who may be as skilled but hasn't yet earned half the stuff needed to implement their strategies.

Save adventuring and unlocking for PvE. Allow pure skill and talent to shine in PvP.

Zuggy · Jun 30, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I personally like the new system.

It still requires you to take 1 character PvE to atleast droknar's forge, but that can be fairly short compared to the 150+ hours to unlock all the skills for 1 character. It also rewards you with playing skill. It doesn't require you to go hunting or grinding, you can just do the missions. I think it's a good system and plan to take full advantage of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrendondo

You don't ask players of the mega-successful Counterstrike to get 500 headshots before you award them a Desert Eagle pistol.

In counter-strike you do have to be able to get the kills, and win the missions to be able to afford the high-end weapons. So counter-strike does reward you for skill. You might want to play it before you talk about it.

stumpy · Jun 30, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Epinephrine

I am not wrong ... I didn't mention armor ... okay flame away about that ... you got me ... I bow ... but I have indeed been playing competitively since release ... don't get me wrong I dont want to compare armor here and crunch numbers ... but this game comes to skills and being able to adapt to your opponent. I am right ... or there would be no such thing as tournament play. This is not counter strike ... we are all not running around in the same armor with choice 1 of this little weapons. The only thing this has in common with CS is in fact the ability to play against eachother ... but the dynamics are completely diferent ... if you do not understand this then please do not try to patronize me with a narrow vision because you are not thinking this through.

As stated above ... 10 hours to lions arch .. I can buy any single piece of equiptment necessary for weapons/offhand items ... (actually when you look at this website ... you can auction them here and they can deliver to your low level toon to through in storage) ... gear what? oh thats right ... I forgot to mention that 'you would not like to buy your gear' instead do the grind and come here to let us know why it isn't fun?

So currently I have my toon with my gear and at lions arch wanna set our skills now?

EDIT --- to UAS and UAR is not going to make you a better player ... please realize that this game is revolutionary ... just because it doesn't follow the 1990 CS archiac style of game ... does not mean you can have everything handed to you. This game IS intertwined and for good reason ... it all works together ... if it is tooo large scale for you there are smaller games on the market that you can play ... Half Life CS SW ... you name it ...

Arvydas · Jun 30, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

there seems to be more negative comments than postive on every updates (or even the game alone), not just this one

the answer is human nature. we're more vocal to ask for what we want than to thank for what we have.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuggy

In counter-strike you do have to be able to get the kills, and win the missions to be able to afford the high-end weapons. So counter-strike does reward you for skill. You might want to play it before you talk about it.

Ah, but that's within the match. You start the match on an even footing. I have no issue with earning morale during the match, getting an edge by taking an objective - but they STARTED the match on even footing.

A leading CS clan doesn't come into a match with more money and better weapons than the opponent.

Besides, I like DoD better than CS - it is class based and more team oriented, which is more like GW anyway.

arredondo · Jun 30, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

I've just deleted pointless flames and spam. Keep it constructive or I'll be forced to lock the thread down permanently.

Why close a well reasoned and civil thread because of intentional flames by people like this guy above? If they can't be civil, why not delete their posts, and if they continue, ban them for a few days from posting? No need to lock my thread since I am not flaming.

Indigo · Jun 30, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

PvP is supposed to be taken seriously, right? These issues matter, and all that is being asked is that just like any other serious competition, allow all PvP players to at least start with equal gear (UAS aand UAR).

And you can now start with equal gear if you earn faction points for your efforts.

Quote:

Until then, it remains an "elitist" sport for the teams who've put in 100s of hours for full gear access over those who may be as skilled but hasn't yet earned half the stuff needed to implement their strategies.

So you'd much rather that the "elite" portion of this game get pushed to the PvP side, merely because you don't want to spend the time? If you haven't earned what you need to implement your strategy, I'd suggest you get out there and start earning.

If it's "so easy" to unlock things in PvE, why aren't there PvP players making one PvE character to unlock things when they aren't PvP'ing and then you wouldn't have any reason to complain. If you go far enough, you can change your class again and again, and unlock all the elites you want that way.

Seriously, if it's "so easy" to do, why are there any complaints at all? Why should it be easier for the PvP player to play this game than the PvE player? Why should it unbalance to the PvP player's side in order for things to be correct? My answer, because you've condensed the game down to something that it might not have been intended for.

Quote:

Save adventuring and unlocking for PvE. Allow pure skill and talent to shine in PvP.

And what about the PvE players who want to PvP with their PvE characters, as is intended in this game? What about those guys? Why should they be on an unequal footing in PvP simply because they want to spend the time and "adventure and unlock"? Why should they pay for the PvP players need to shortcut?

Just my less than humble opinion.