Curse

Aniewiel · Jul 16, 2005, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Gaile,

The other day I posted a thread about exactly what you've done today: Give a short statement about the rational behind the update.

Thank you for that though, even though people hinted that might help them a bit, it seems not to have done it completely.

But your candor and your statement help -this- play a lot and I thank you.

Yes, there are things that need adjustment and fine tuning but I trust that you all over there at Arena Net have not only your own best corporate interests in mind but the collective interest of your players as well.

Thanks again!

Aniewiel · Jul 16, 2005, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Oh...everyone needs to also remember that Gaile and ANet are not going to tell us what it is that they have in the planning for the future. That'd be like asking to read the last chapter of a thriller---it would seriously ruin the fun.

What I think that most of us want is a retrospective on each update. Why did you make the changes you did, etc. Gaile's post went a long way to explaining it to me. We need to rest assured that they are doing the best they can.

Heck, do you guys READ this forum?

The sheer number of posts, complaints, suggestions, etc. is MIND BOGGLING! There's ony so much they can do in a day.

The Great Al · Jul 16, 2005, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Urm, i'm a guy.

As for the next update....can't wait

hahahahahahahaha....oh man, that was priceless

as an elementalist, i'm pretty happy with my spells, especially since sthg was fixed to make it possible to cast an AoE even if target enemy died beforehand, which originally sucked so bad....i just wish the collectors items werent practically the BEST items available for at least a fire or air elementalist...in a way its easier for us, but then eventually you want something different

generik · Jul 16, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Gaile,

In this, I don't think I may be speaking for others, but ultimately I don't really want more "uber" weapons or more "godly" weapons, just a few kinks:

1) more variety.. it really gets bland after a while seeing all those level *high* creatures drop seemingly pathetic weapons that even a lvl 3 grawl would scoff at.

2) consistency.. I'm not sure how weapon stats are generated, but during generation, wouldn't it be better to ensure that only certain stats would qualify as "rare", and others as purple "uncommons", and others as blue "magicals" etc? I've actually come across quite a fair bit of golds that are so disappointing I just either trash them or sell them to the merchant. Likewise a fair bit of purples ironically gives decent unlocks. That should not be the case, rares should be what they are, truly rares. Uncommons might vary somewhat. That way, when you do see a rare drop, your heart will truly deserve to skip a beat, as compared to now.

Rare drop rates aren't impressive right now... However I think purples and blues frequency should be increased. Rare status should be elevated to truly rare, and have matching mods to go with it.

Sure, I agree that it might cause prices to shoot rocket sky high for these ultra premium items, but let's think of it this way, at best they are probably collector items that comes up upgrades

, it will also on the other hand create a thriving weapon mod/upgrade economy.

Frankly I'm starting to get *beyond* this whole rare nonsense, it is unattainable, and as it currently is, even if you get a rare it is not a big deal anyway. I do savour an overall increase in the.. *excitement* if you'd call it.. of average game play.

generik · Jul 16, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

By "excitement" I don't mean "woohoo! a rare!"

But more of just.. something to look forward to, be it a new upgrade, or anything. Right now it is really rather bland.

generik · Jul 16, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJG

There is massive gold- and rune-inflation because of excess supply and the only things that retain any value are exceptional objects. The net result is that to buy exceptional objects you have to farm, which increases excess supply of gold and drives prices even further up. There is nothing that can be done with drop rates to fix the fact that the economy is inherently broken.

IANAE (I'm Not An Economist

)

However I do think that the trader's main role in GW should not be to function as a gold sink, but to facilitate movement of gold and goods. They can always function as a gold sink in some sense by buying goods back at a markdown of say 85%, but as it stands now, it is truly broken.

Your hypothesized inflation issues... well, let's just say that at the same time as gold, resources like iron and wood are correspondingly created as people salvaged them, in the current scenario
1) people would simply refuse to sell back to the trader, and the trader's prices would rise, hence making gold worthless (essentially this IS inflation)
2) people will even buy ALL of the trader's stock, and since the buying price is so unreasonable, he will never ever get stocked, and ultimately what's the NPC's role in the game?
3) in trying to control regulation, a more chaotic system arose. In a free market people where there is some real incentive to actually use the trader, people would actually sell back to the trader if his stocks are out (and he is offering a prices corresponding to that fact) and restore prices back to normal, similarly people would be able to prevent prices from falling too low too, I'm sure many independent traders will snap them all up as well.

I'm not sure what ANet is trying to achieve with the last round of updates, maybe discourage hoarding/independent trading. But it does provide something to do, and to be really honest, in GW there isn't much.

Believe it or not, it is quite satisfying to just enter a town or outpost, see someone "WTB" something, and sell it, knowing that you probably made a profit of 10g per piece or something. It isn't much but it is something! Right now.. personally it is just a bitterness to get back at the system that is smiting me

Some claimed and tried to defend the new update by saying that it is good, and it drove down prices. Since when? At this very instant, steel is 281 gold each, linen is 791 each, and in bulk it is 210 and 431 respectively.

These are nowhere cheap.

I did recall the first time I made it to Draknar, still a super newbie and wearing parts of armor that are from presear (not collector's even!) and I decided to get that Aeromancer armor, it took me so much time just to scrimp and save to get that linen to complete that set. And then linen was like... 200-250?

Now? It is virtually impossible. It's insane to even think about it. A character wouldn't accumulate any more than 15K if played "straight", and with that kind of prices... I would barely have been able to afford the linen for the aeromancer robe even after another few days of play.

Unless of course, if Anet's intent is to essentially make all PvE characters just "sort of" PvP characters (in the sense that they all tote the same weapons, wear the same collector's gear), I really fail to see what else these updates are trying to do.

I did notice that dye drop frequencies seem to have risen somewhat, probably to colour that standard issue soldier's garb?

Anyway some words on the direction GW and PvE especially would take would be very nice to have. It might be reassuring or very disappointing, but at least it is good to be able to know.

EternalTempest · Jul 16, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Just curious.. is guild-hall the official GW forums?

It does worry me somewhat that opinions here might not be tended to...

They have set up a system that several sites are "elite" gw forums sites, this one and Guild Hall are one of them (there's much more)

http://www.guildwars.com/community/f...gram-info.html

They assign reps to the diffrent forums to watch them / allow Arena.Net to directly talk to the fan base and get honest reaction / feedback instead email all your compliants to x adderess. A rather nice set up actually.

(Edit) opps didn't say page two when I typed this.
Gale, Thank You for responding

Galatea · Jul 16, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I'm glad to see a statement from ANet and know that they are listening. I understand they can't add those super crazy damage types of weapons because of balance issues and the unfair advantages that would be created... but I think that they should be able to create balanced/fair weapons that have unique, cosmetic appearances. These could be the 'cool item collector' items that people are desiring. Sure, there's the infamous fiery dragon sword, chaos axe, and fellblade.. storm bow, eternal shield.. but there should be more. More weapons for other classes, more variety, and even weapons/offhand items that don't appear to make much sense. For the female gamers, corsages/floral items to act as off-hand items (same stats: +12 energy). Even weaker items, that look cool, and that are, I supposed, "rare".. they won't be chased after by everyone because they're not max damage, but the collectors are going to want to have it, just because it looks different than everyone else's weapon.

FFF_WarRaven · Jul 16, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Looks are great esp if i think it's cool but in my mind i always ask "What does it do and how well does it do it?" and "Do i really NEED this" ie fissure armor, bragging rights whoopie do!!! personally a few of the fissure armors are ugly as catching your parents doing..well..nvm..lol and for 15k..i think i'll sink my gp into something that has better functionality rather than better "looks".

:::End Transmission:::

Xoduz · Jul 16, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I just wanted to let all of you know that I read through this thread, and I understand what you're saying. It's a very difficult missions, really, to make a game that appeals, in equal measure, to those who play PvP only, PvE only, and a mix of the two. I believe that most of you do grasp the difficulty of the mission. And I think that most of you also know that we're working on this very hard, and we absolutely will not short one side of the equation in favour of the other.

I can definately understand the difficultly in doing so. I just think alot of what PvE players are asking for is what they have seen in other MMORPG's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We have a team who is working on all sorts of things. They may address Point A one day, and Point B another. But please know that we hear the concerns, and in fact we were discussing them just a few days ago. The challenge that I see, as a player and an admitted "cool item collector" type of player (when I'm PvEing) is that we do not intend to have overpowering items in the game. We aren't going to hand off hammers with 160 damage, or spells that kill everything within a 5 mile radius. PvE players might think "Why not? What does it hurt?" but Guild Wars is unique, and it is intended to appeal to, and be pleasurable for, both PvE and PvP players, and neither operates in a vacuum. Trust me, my PvE characters want the Bow of Burning with +1 gazillion fire damage, but getting that just isn't going to happen.

I've seen those suggestions and I agree that you can't do that. But what I think people are asking underneath those comments are for progress/stage like encounters. Let me explain : Most "hardcore" pve's are used to raiding. That means killing epic bosses, and they are used to those epic bosses dropping greater, more consistent loot.

I use the term greater losely, because it doesn't have to be about a +1 gazillion fire dmg weapon. The weapon could simply be have a unique appearance, and it would be "greater" to some. Or it could have a unique effect, like "+5% to hex length." It doesn't have to be unbalancing, but unique'ness does account for much.

Also, people are used to linked goals. For instances, you raid dungeon #1 to get to dungeon #2. And you bring weapons/items from dungeon #1 to make your group better at #2. Example? Say in dungeon #1, there are +google dmg weapons. And then in Dungeon #2, you need +google dmg weapons to kill anything. But +google dmg weapons would be useless in PvP, since they wouldn't effect anything outside Dungeon #2.

So rewards can be flexible. You can also make PvE objectives, such as killing uber bosses, earn non-combat rewards. Guild Upgrades? Personal Housing? Those things would make PvE more rewarding, and people would feel they have more goals than just skills/finishing missions/obsidian armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The bottom line is we're listening and we will address your concerns. I can't promise we'll address every concern with precisely the solution or suggestion that you've offered, but it's great of you to share your thoughts and always know that we consider this a high priority and an important goal.

I want to thank you for that. I just wanted to say that we really apprechiate it, and most of us only want to see A.net succeed.

Personally, I want to see you increase your demographics to include "hardcore" players from MMORPG's. The "raider" type. I basically cut my teeth in MMORPG's by playing EQ's end-game, and I know ALOT of players who would move to GW if only they had a reason. But you gotta know where to start ~ people want to have a good reason to raid, as well as you gotta influence the big guys in the raiding biz, like Fires of Heaven.

Anyway, think about it. We will be here

Xoduz Midnight,
Winters Fury
Co-Op First Guild

Divinitys Creature · Jul 16, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Gaile, can you please bring back rank sticks? I'd even do some insane quest to get my rank stick back.

ManadartheHealer · Jul 16, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

2) consistency.. I'm not sure how weapon stats are generated, but during generation, wouldn't it be better to ensure that only certain stats would qualify as "rare", and others as purple "uncommons", and others as blue "magicals" etc? I've actually come across quite a fair bit of golds that are so disappointing I just either trash them or sell them to the merchant. Likewise a fair bit of purples ironically gives decent unlocks. That should not be the case, rares should be what they are, truly rares. Uncommons might vary somewhat. That way, when you do see a rare drop, your heart will truly deserve to skip a beat, as compared to now.

My golds are mostly better than purples. In fact, it seems most of the purple drops I get are salvage items with runes and other such goodies in them...

I recently got a gold sword. The stats? 15-22 damage, +15% while health is greater than 50%. Pretty damn good.

But on the flip side, I have gotten gold shields with less than 16 AL, I have gotten a couple crap gold items (no mods at all). But usually, the gold weapons I get are max damage (or AL) with nice mods.

I would like it so that all gold and purple weapons are at least max damage though, and that the average blue drop is better than a simple white drop (max damage sword is white, half of max damage sword is blue and, when ID'd, says "highly salvageable". When salvaged, it yields 7 iron ingots

)

Thanas · Jul 16, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Gaile, I completely respect where you are coming from. I do not wish for the introduction of Uber items or an increase in drops. I am happy with the current state of play and I believe the Guild wars team is spot on and understand that any such introductions would redirect the games focus. Thanks Guilds Wars team!

FFF_WarRaven · Jul 16, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Gaile, I completely respect where you are coming from. I do not wish for the introduction of Uber items or an increase in drops. I am happy with the current state of play and I believe the Guild wars team is spot on and understand that any such introductions would redirect the games focus. Thanks Guilds Wars team!

what focus are you talking about? what is there to focus on after you have beaten the game a few times? and played hours and hours of pvp?

most of the time now is simply doing more of the same over and over in hopes of finding a better item, either to use or to sell, im not saying increase the drops or give us uber weapons but more so level it out right ie, i have ascended, why is it the dozen or so items i have found in the underworld or fissure or any of the higher up areas and basically at a level much lower than i can even call useful, if im lucky i'll get to unlock something ok sure great, but hell man do i really need to recieve a 6-22 axe? or a 5-10 item? when im at a lvl i cannot go past? or how about all the items i get that are gold or purple yet have no mods or stats?

even at lower levels the items and such arn't that great, but once you have 1 character that has ascended and can hunt around the higher up areas or buy max dmg and so on. There is a constantcy that seems to be missing...

Quote:

And I think that most of you also know that we're working on this very hard, and we absolutely will not short one side of the equation in favour of the other.

well actually, now pvp has pvp rewards( altho it requires more time than i care to spend for it all ) as well as being able to unlock stuff for pvp while playing PvE. PvE has no such thing as the rewards, unless im understanding it wrong? ie you cannot unlock something by faction points and use it in pve? if i am wrong forgive me but im more of a pve player, and have done no more than a dozen or more pvp games. pve just suits me more as im more intrested in going on a quest with a real objective rather than just smashing my enemys so ppl can have the favor, but that's just me.

i have yet to find something like a gold sword with mods in a lower level area from say a char, so going back to lower lvls to try to find something doesnt make sence to me as im looking for the higher end stuff, but you find a lot of lower lvl stuff in higher end areas, i don't think it's so much more or actual better drops as much as where and what the drops are in specific areas.

also other things like i find a shortsword with a 10/9 or 10/10 sundering or furious on it, yet you cannot salvage thoses things from lower area items, making it even harder to actually get something, that you see common enuff on lower items but more rare in higher end stuff, or the fact that a gold item should salvo a part of it everytime, being that it is rare enuff or special enuff, if it were reallife you thing someone would mess up that badly as to have to trash the whole thing and get a clump of usless metal?

and believe me i used to work in machine tool and die , i have seem titianium go up in poof when cut in the wrong way.

i think whats important is quality for the lvl your at and consistancy for the areas their in....i mean even the story line seems to have large gaps in its plot etc..

but it is good to know people are watching and reading, for that thank you.

:::End Transmission:::

Gaile Gray · Jul 16, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

Gaile, can you please bring back rank sticks? I'd even do some insane quest to get my rank stick back.

I personally love the staves. I am not sure why we made the change, come to think of it. I'll ask around and see. It could have been any reason at all, from "This is a cooler idea" to "downloading those assets are slowing those in dial-up." There are so many (!) considerations to every change. Hey, maybe rank staves are coming back in another form.... Hmmm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Gaile, I completely respect where you are coming from. I do not wish for the introduction of Uber items or an increase in drops. I am happy with the current state of play and I believe the Guild wars team is spot on and understand that any such introductions would redirect the games focus. Thanks Guilds Wars team!

Thanks for the kind and positive comments.

So, let me propose a thought: It's not "uber items," so much as "ultra cool and rare and wonderful" items, for many of us. It's "Maybe nobody in the entire server has this exact bow, or this cool shield, or this spiffy pair of Charr Fur Slippers." So I want to ask you this:

If items had the same combat-related stats, so as to avoid the unbalancing effects of uber items, but were unique in appearance, would that satisfy some of the craving? I'll be honest: For me, it would be a significant thing indeed. I wore Goldskin in Diablo II. (Assuming a few of you played that game.

) I wore that armour because it was gosh-darned beautiful, even though I had several pieces that were better in defense. It wasn't a strategic choice, it was a choice of the heart, built on my love for my Amazon and my connectedness with my character.

I appreciate that not all players are emotionally tied to their characters. Some rotate them out like yesterday's socks, and that's great for them. I played a gimped character in AC1 for months and months, simply because I couldn't bear to give her up, even knowing she'd never amount to much. Heck, I had trouble giving up my Melandru's Stalker to get my beloved Lynx, and I actually closed my eyes when I hit accept.

So, now you know, I'm not only a gamer, but perhaps a silly and sentimental gamer. But hey, it ties to the question, and I sincerely want to know: How many players are considering the item issue from the viewpoint of "coolness" and "uniqueness" rather than pure functional advantages?

Loviatar · Jul 16, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I How many players are considering the item issue from the viewpoint of "coolness" and "uniqueness" rather than pure functional advantages?

i think something as small as different *unique* colors would be a hit along with different embellishments you could add (for a gold sink err price) that could be added to your armor

plumes (of different colors) come to mind as well as a small catalog of extras you could add

give people balance with a plateload of small individualizing extras and it would help

not for the dingbats who have to have the uber staff of leetness but it would make many people happy and more happier

drogrin · Jul 16, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I guess you can get the answer yourself, Gaile. Just look how many people bought 15k armors or underworld armors..they're not better than the other armors in any way, but they are prestige. As well as black dye and all that stuff..it looks cool, so people buy it. Even I myself have a black-dyed 15k dragon armor..and I would consider myself to be someone who prefers functionality

arredondo · Jul 16, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So, let me propose a thought: It's not "uber items," so much as "ultra cool and rare and wonderful" items, for many of us. It's "Maybe nobody in the entire server has this exact bow, or this cool shield, or this spiffy pair of Charr Fur Slippers." So I want to ask you this:

If items had the same combat-related stats, so as to avoid the unbalancing effects of uber items, but were unique in appearance, would that satisfy some of the craving? I'll be honest: For me, it would be a significant thing indeed. I wore Goldskin in Diablo II. (Assuming a few of you played that game.

) I wore that armour because it was gosh-darned beautiful, even though I had several pieces that were better in defense. It wasn't a strategic choice, it was a choice of the heart, built on my love for my Amazon and my connectedness with my character.

I appreciate that not all players are emotionally tied to their characters. Some rotate them out like yesterday's socks, and that's great for them. I played a gimped character in AC1 for months and months, simply because I couldn't bear to give her up, even knowing she'd never amount to much. Heck, I had trouble giving up my Melandru's Stalker to get my beloved Lynx, and I actually closed my eyes when I hit accept.

So, now you know, I'm not only a gamer, but perhaps a silly and sentimental gamer. But hey, it ties to the question, and I sincerely want to know: How many players are considering the item issue from the viewpoint of "coolness" and "uniqueness" rather than pure functional advantages?

Gaile,

This proposal is PERFECT for all three kinds of players (PvE primary, PvP primary, and both) if you carry it out to its logical conclusion.

I've long said that things like this proposal (steady acquisition and goal progression) is a fundamental and enjoyable PvE play mechanic. However, this type of play mechanic is anti-competition in PvP. All competition is based on the basic rule that all competitiors have equal access to allowed gear/equipment. It's up to them to prepare themselves and make the most of it in order to win.

As of now, a PvE player can go 100s of hours with nearly zero required time doing PvP-type play mechanics (forced competition). It would be wonderful if your idea helps us to see the logical equivalent in PvP... no forced PvE play mechanics in order to battle others on an even playing field regardless of hours played. A team with 100s of hours towards 'unlocking' in all classes is inherently at an advantage to someone who hasn't put 'unlocking' and PvE time in. It should be purely skill vs.skill.

There's a reason why this is. The problem with Guild Wars has been that the rewards at the end of PvE adventures are things that are required at the start of PvP strategic planning for a match. However, the more you reward our PvE efforts with things purely PvE (i.e. your idea above), the easier it will be for Arena.net to allow pure skillful PvP play to exist without the uneven options that players and teams now endure.

Guess what? You have sprinklings of it already. Flaming swords, Chaos Axes, outfits, etc. If you expanded on this and made so many cosmetic options available while keeping pure PvP "bland" but fully functional, then the goals of PvE acquisition no longer requires you to hold pure skillful PvP competion back as it is now. maybe even add new, flashy visual effects to moves. Special taunts and emotes. New color combinations that can't be achieved in PvP-only toons. You can eventually have a lot of people playing PvE just to look dazzling in PvP.

Hopefully that came across ok... I do play both modes, but I am uncomfortable at how one mixes in the basic play mechanics of the other (mostly PvE mechanics in PvP). Based on your constant PvP changes in the updates, it seems some of Arena.net recognizes that there is more weight of PvE play mechanics (unlocking, PvE priests for skills, etc.) in PvP while there is virtually none of the opposite (forced competition) in PvE.

As you continually flesh out each mode to appease fans who wish to play properly in their "mode", I'm sure you'll see that all three type of players benefit when the play mechanics of the two modes are separate but accentuated (i.e. more pure PvE rewards and the introduction of pure skillful PvP competition) so you get maximum enjoyment and fairness from the total product.

Loviatar · Jul 16, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

i honestly think you will not get UA/X

MAXIMUM PC magazine just gave GW its coveted *kick ass* stamp of approval and a 9/10 rating.

they really liked the EARNING of additional skills

pfb · Jul 16, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

A key issue now that people have completed GW a few times is the lack of uniqueness and rarity - what weapon/shield/armour hasn't been found yet? It maybe that the 2 new areas introduce new styles but given that it's been only a few months since release, and the gap between new areas and chapter is about the same, people will tire of the same old crap...

The dynamic stats system seems ok - maybe this could be improved to be a dynamic artwork system (basic level - merge current components...Raven Sword anyone?; advanced level - pull from a large artwork base, 30-50% of which isn't readily available)...