Curse

Borealis · Jul 21, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

Well, when the monsters got made "harder", really the only thing that Anet did was add massive enchantment hate to the mobs to stop the prevailent, enchantment dependent, farming builds / bots.

Ofcourse, the downside to that was that they made enchantments basically useless to waste a slot on from the point you reach Kryta, since almost every mob will have some way of getting rid of your enchantments.

So while they made the monsters "harder" (I would say they just made them more annoying), they NERFED enchantments. And there are a LOT of enchantments in the game.

Btw, I don't mind A monster ripping enchantments (such as the Charr Chaot), because then it becomes tactical to take that monster out as soon as possible, so you can run the rest of your enchantments again. But when a mob of six critters all strip your enchantments, they become useless, and not worth sacrificing a slot on.

In my opinion, that's a nerf, albeit an indirect one.

A direct nerf on the monsters, for example, was when they took the Beastmaster boss in the dwarven mines (only shows up for a Ranger quest), and turned him from a self healing lvl 28 juggernaut that required you to plan ahead and bring interrupts, to a lvl 14 wimp that dies in approximately ten seconds of you attacking him. All because there were a few people who complained that he was too hard.

That's a nerf too, because a lot of people actually enjoyed the challenge of fighting him at his lvl 28 badness.

Creston

I enjoyed fighting that beastmaster too, a good group shoudln't have had a problem beating him, the group I was with beat him on the first try.

Creston · Jul 21, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

Now, this seems odd to me because PvE players have a good and pretty darned easily attainable option in collectors items.

Actually, when the drop rates went down, so did the amount of "collectable" items that you need for the collectors.

Try gathering up Losaru manes in the desert for the two pieces of armor you can collect with it. It took me two nights, about 7 or 8 hours, of constantly killing the same losarus over and over again. (took about 20-30 mins or so to walk to the spot with losaru and kill around 20 of them).

Sure, I could have just been unlucky, but I had the same effect when later I tried to kill some scarabs for their mandibles. Took FOREVER. :|

Now, if you TRULY would get the same items "while playing the game normally", it'd be fine, but I've yet to see Anet actually doing anything to make that statement true. It's still "in the future".

Oh well.

Creston

Drakron · Jul 21, 2005, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

It seems that the only people that are directly effected by a lack of item drops are PvE players, as PvP character have instant access to perfect items.

Not instant but they can start with max damage items.

Quote:

Now, this seems odd to me because PvE players have a good and pretty darned easily attainable option in collectors items.

Do they really?

Collectors require items, so intead of farming for gold you are farming for collectors items that even if they are max damage they dont offer diversity, you cannot get a dragon sword from a collector with leads again to the problem of lack of customization.

Quote:

The only way that a PvP character would be effected by the item drops is due to unlocks, which in my mind still shouldn't induce farming. Playing through a character normally you will unlock almost all of at least the basic upgrade componants. At which point you can use faction unlocks to pick out the perfect mods that are relevent to you.

PvP players complain about the fraction grind and no, playing a character normaly will NOT unlock all of the basic upgrades.

How many times this have to be said?

DROPS ARE RANDOM.

I was up to my neck in axe upgrades first time I played as the only sword upgrade I had was a +4 (elemental) armor, I never seen a vampiric upgrade until I played a second character.

Dont make such claims on system thats is RANDOM, just because player x finds a superior vigor rune in a area does not mean playery will.

Darkest Dawn · Jul 21, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Just curious..... Since some are opposed to farming and think all is accessable by simply playing the game through, who has honestly gotten fissure armor just by having the money and resources when they got to where you buy it?

Of course if you wanted it, and didn't have the money, and the game is finished... you ....would.....need....to....farm......!!! Oh no!

Seriously, I like to farm. I'm not complaining since my W/Mo can go and get the gold and supplies I need for my characters and to help my guildmates out. I simply am stating that there is nothing wrong with farming is one wants to do so. If you paid for the game then go for it if you want, if not, then don't. But please don't dog people for wanting to farm. Also, not all who farm do it to spam WTS on the trade channel. I have never done it. I take what I need, give my guildies what they need and sell the rest to the merchants.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the botting problem, and do think they should shut these guys down. However, I don't want us regular folks to be penalized as well.

Algren Cole · Jul 21, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Darkest Dawn: you immediately failed to make a point when you mentioned Fissure Armor.

I was previously anti-farming....but as i've started to near the end of the game I have found some fun in putting together a farming build with my ranger for different areas of the map.....but mentioning fissure armor is a moot point...it's a gold sink for players with 14 hours a day to play...it's not an element of the game that has ANY need.

Cap'n Hoek · Jul 21, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakron

Do they really?

Collectors require items, so intead of farming for gold you are farming for collectors items that even if they are max damage they dont offer diversity, you cannot get a dragon sword from a collector with leads again to the problem of lack of customization.

Yes, the really do. All 3 of my PvE characters have maxxed out weapons/focus items. My E/Mo has 3 sets of wand/focus. My N/R has 3 bows and a wand/focus. My W/Me has a sword, axe, hammer, shield and 3 helmets. All max damage/armor/stats. All with great mods. ALL FROM COLLECTORS. And it didn't really take much effort, to be honest. I saved all of my collector items. If I needed more I'd party up with the 2 monk and 2 warrior henchmen and go hunting. And if you don't want to do that, you can buy most of the collector items from other players, for ~100g each.

Darkest Dawn · Jul 21, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Darkest Dawn: you immediately failed to make a point when you mentioned Fissure Armor.

I was previously anti-farming....but as i've started to near the end of the game I have found some fun in putting together a farming build with my ranger for different areas of the map.....but mentioning fissure armor is a moot point...it's a gold sink for players with 14 hours a day to play...it's not an element of the game that has ANY need.

I didn't realize I was talking to you.....

(j/k)

My point is moot, I agree. That IS the point! If farming was wrong, then there would not be gold sinks.

I didn't start farming until I was pretty much finished with the game either. Then I started to do it to help my other builds and help my guildies to get ready to do some PvP.

BTW, I saw you the other day in Kryta. I think it was the Bergen Hot Springs. It was cool to see a player who's name you see from the forums!

Algren Cole · Jul 21, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

I didn't realize I was talking to you.....

(j/k)

My point is moot, I agree. That IS the point! If farming was wrong, then there would not be gold sinks.

I didn't start farming until I was pretty much finished with the game either. Then I started to do it to help my other builds and help my guildies to get ready to do some PvP.

BTW, I saw you the other day in Kryta. I think it was the Bergen Hot Springs. It was cool to see a player who's name you see from the forums!

lol. i've seen a couple of people from the forum. it's definately cool, it's rare that you happen upon someone in town so it's alway a shock.

shoulda said something we coulda partied up

Ba Ne · Jul 21, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap'n Hoek

Yes, the really do. All 3 of my PvE characters have maxxed out weapons/focus items. My E/Mo has 3 sets of wand/focus. My N/R has 3 bows and a wand/focus. My W/Me has a sword, axe, hammer, shield and 3 helmets. All max damage/armor/stats. All with great mods. ALL FROM COLLECTORS. And it didn't really take much effort, to be honest. I saved all of my collector items. If I needed more I'd party up with the 2 monk and 2 warrior henchmen and go hunting. And if you don't want to do that, you can buy most of the collector items from other players, for ~100g each.

Did you get all of those fabulous collector weapons in the past week? Most likely not. Therefore your point is nullified as you acquired the items necessary to get those collector's weapons before Nerfgate of July 13, 2005.

I would bet that if you tried to reaquire all of those collector weapons in the same manner as before starting today it would take quite a bit more time than it did the first time.

People, please keep in mind that any argument that's based on experiences from before July 13 are not really relevant to this issue. The conditions then are not the same as they are now.

Drakron · Jul 21, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap'n Hoek

Yes, the really do. All 3 of my PvE characters have maxxed out weapons/focus items. My E/Mo has 3 sets of wand/focus. My N/R has 3 bows and a wand/focus. My W/Me has a sword, axe, hammer, shield and 3 helmets. All max damage/armor/stats. All with great mods. ALL FROM COLLECTORS. And it didn't really take much effort, to be honest. I saved all of my collector items. If I needed more I'd party up with the 2 monk and 2 warrior henchmen and go hunting. And if you don't want to do that, you can buy most of the collector items from other players, for ~100g each.

Sorry collectors armor is usually a placeholder until we can craft a subset and I like you to get that helm in the desert that needs you to collect wurm drops witout "too much effort", even paying 100 gp for it requires spending 500 gp and waste the time finding someone who IS farming for such items so he can sell then to you.

In the end you depend on farmers so you dont farm ... for collectors items.

And still does not change the fact people try to customize their looks, just because you dont mind seeing clones of your character running around, I do.

Darkest Dawn · Jul 21, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

lol. i've seen a couple of people from the forum. it's definately cool, it's rare that you happen upon someone in town so it's alway a shock.

shoulda said something we coulda partied up

/off topic

Yeah, I actually though to go up and say hello, but didn't want to disturb you. If I see ya again, I will say hello!

/back on topic

Algren Cole · Jul 21, 2005, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

/off topic

Yeah, I actually though to go up and say hello, but didn't want to disturb you. If I see ya again, I will say hello!

/back on topic

/remains off topic

I can't get a PUG capable of beating thunderhead keep....so I'm really not doing much of anything but running people places so they don't have to pay for it. It'd never be a disturbance to say hello

/NOW go back on topic

Acan Vishnu · Jul 21, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I'm really not opposed to farming, it is just that from my in game experience I think that it is optional. I play with one of my friends consistantly, we both are on our third characters, each time we go through we use collector items rather than try and find a perfect dropped item. It generally takes about 30-60min to get the additional items needed from a collector for an item for both of us. In the crystal desert for example, you have to kill an ungodly amount of Minotaurs, Scarabs, Rockshots, Hydras, etc. just going to each area and doing the missions and skill quests. Now, even in a team of six your bound to get a couple of the items that the collectors want. (The notable exception is bleached shells, which I've only seen drop twice from the wurms there)

And yes, we have done this recently. We got a max Ascalon (long bow) for one of our ranger friends two days ago.

It just seems to me that most people feel that Fissure Armor or even Citadel/Grotto armors are some sort of necessity, or that having a Fellblade or a Crystal Sword are required when their just different looking versions of something that they could get themselves without much additional work is just as good. If you want rare items just for looks, thats cool, but I think its important to realize that it is optional. I want to have every single cool thing in the game, but am willing to awknowledge that its my personal choice to do so, and that I'm going to have to work to get it all. In my opinion if its not a question of game balance so I won't complain about it... What I MIGHT do is go over to the Sanitarium and post some ideas for improvement though.

Thanas · Jul 21, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adaria

Y'know, I honestly do not understand how the term 'nerf' got put together with making monsters harder, putting more monsters in areas and such like that. Nerf to me is soft, squishy and safe, easy and such. How did the term 'nerf' get associated with this anyway? Could someone explain this, spare me the sarcasm and rudeness please, I'm simply curious about how these conditions ended up associated with the term 'nerf'.

I wasn't ignoring you, I just don't know. Sorry.

Prince_Ayreon · Jul 21, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borealis

Just look in the for sale section of these forums if people think farming hasn't been or should further be nerfed, I don't even bother to look in it anymore because of the insanely overinflated prices people are asking.

Example.
WTS GOLD MAX DMG FELLBLADE
Starting bid 100k!!!!

If the games meant for items to NOT be important then why should anyone have to shell out this kind of gold for a friggin weapon. Go look in there right now, I'm sure the whole front page is flooded with buttheads asking for 50k or 100k or more for almost everything in there. The only way to kill that forum is to make rares more common and or add an auction house.

Quoted out of agreement.

Adaria · Jul 21, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Nerf=Ineffective is a much better way of thinking of it, makes a bit more sense then, and thank you for answering that. It's rather odd to see the term coupled with the situation like this but now makes a bit more sense.

Nerf bats are rather ineffective as far as hurting people, unless you take off the foam part and leave the metal. XD

But anyway...

Cap'n Hoek · Jul 21, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ba Ne

Did you get all of those fabulous collector weapons in the past week? Most likely not. Therefore your point is nullified as you acquired the items necessary to get those collector's weapons before Nerfgate of July 13, 2005.

Actually, I've gotten 2 of the bows, one smiting wand, one protective icon and the necro focus this week. So yes, it is still pretty easy to do. I just got the 5 avicara scalps and the 10 mountain troll tusks last night for a few of the items. Collector's items are still pretty common, even with a few henchies in the party, in my experience.

Cap'n Hoek · Jul 21, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakron

Sorry collectors armor is usually a placeholder until we can craft a subset and I like you to get that helm in the desert that needs you to collect wurm drops witout "too much effort", even paying 100 gp for it requires spending 500 gp and waste the time finding someone who IS farming for such items so he can sell then to you.

In the end you depend on farmers so you dont farm ... for collectors items.

And still does not change the fact people try to customize their looks, just because you dont mind seeing clones of your character running around, I do.

The swordsman's helm in the desert was the hardest to come by simply due to the rarity of the sand wurms. That doesn't mean the rest of my gear was that hard to come by. Not in the slightest. (Not to mention the fun I had creating a W/Me build that could solo those wurms.) You know how long it takes to gather the stuff for most of these items? An hour, at most.

I don't rely on farmers, I did all of the collecting myself. I just mentioned that for those who can't or don't collect these items for themselves. You think 500 gold is too much for a perfect long sword? And guess what - it doesn't even look like most other long swords. Not that bleached carapaces are that difficult to come by.

It appears your entire agument is subjective. You don't want your character to look like any others? Well then, you're gonna have to work for it. I'm happy with my characters' appearance. Are you unhappy that you can't have a unique looking character for free? Even when you have your fissure armor and your perfect fellblade, there's still gonna be a bunch of people with exactly the same gear. Then what?

Haloknight9 · Jul 21, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

You know I really wish people would think before posting... allrighty, time to 'teach' some people some facts, after all facts own all.

1. First and foremost, you are not me, you are not him, you are you. What you may think the game is about is not necessarily what I or anyone else thinks the game is about. Point being please don't assume that i only play the game to farm, or play the game to level, or play the game to even roleplay. Everyone has thier own way of having fun in the game. Like it or not, some people farm to have fun. (OMG what a shocker!) Stop being so close-minded.

2. Nerfing farming areas does hurt the economy if you believe it to or not. The most misunderstood notion is that nerfing helps the community (it matters how its done). Let me show you that they way they did it does not. First, it takes away some of the fun of people getting items when they need it or if they are just supplying thier guild of casual gamers. Or heck, even if they are just doing it to see 'a rare such and such' dropped. Secondly, it hurts people that are currently poor(a good portion of casual gamers, i will not assume most..) and need money or even the items. It widens the gap between the casual player that was already having an issue getting money to buy stuff or even farm it, and makes things more expensive. Its common sense to see this... people will sell it for more now that its even harder to get. True, most people may not buy it but the people that have money will still buy that item, changing absolutely nothing, and bringing us back to square one.

3. Nerfing material vendors and the chance of geting rare materials from using an expert salavge kit makes the problem worse (which i have seen start to happen). I have seen some of the venders buy materials at 1/15th of the price they are selling it for. Again, the casual gamers have to work even harder to get any money becuase some material sellers are constantly buying your materials at 30g a stack. I could give you a nice print out of the costs of the expert salavge kit vs actually getting rare crafting materials out of them, but i really don't think you want to get that bored do you?

Thats mostly it, if i think of more ill be happy to post it. just my two cents.

Saerden · Jul 21, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I think there is a bug with traders if you sell stuff from a bag. Cant confirm atm, but i hear it causes items to be sold for min value (30 for 10x common material like bones). The lowest buying price should be 150buy from - 30 sell to trader (meaning he got flooded with the item - i never have seen it fall lower than that prepatch). If you see 1000 buy , 30 sell - try out putting the items in your main inventory and request another price. If its still below 500, its nerfed beyond reason imho.