Curse

Zrave · Jul 28, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Sometimes, the elite tag is justified because of its interactions with other elites. In this case, Oath Shot weighs in considerably but ceases to be a factor if Nature's Renewal became elite. This is how the elite mechanic should be implemented, rather than to just create more powerful versions of basic skills.

Zeru · Jul 28, 2005, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Even if NR could not be used with Oath shot people still would spam it all over the place and the gameplay would be horribly stagnated anyway. Oath Shot only makes it spammable every 15 seconds with zephyr which is really only useful in breaking up ZF smiters or countering a lucky interrupt through a stance etc. The mere threat that renewal will be there every match in tombs pretty much screws any plans for a maintained enchant/hex heavy build from the start.

You are right that the elite skill system should be used to break up bad combinations but even still it's not a real fix unless a skill is only broken because it can be used in conjunction with another elite.

NR certainly isn't in that category, neither is fertile (the problem there is affecting other spirits). ZF/ER *could* be I guess; ZF hardly seems overpowered to me but ER is absurdly good and is already elite. Imo the only two big balance issues that need to be solved asap is NR (the double hex/enchant cast time is enough of a bonus and should be left at that; rend/strip/lingering/chillbains/shatter E need a big buff though) and Fertile affecting other spirits. Putrid being so good is mainly because of HoH being a stupid KotH and generally being very crowded in the middle of the altar; outside of that it's really subpar. I wouldn't mind waiting another few weeks for the bad skills like wither to be buffed and stuff like ether renewal to be nerfed but they really can't ignore fertile/nr without screwing up pvp further.

I wasn't around when it was put in and have no idea why it is here in the first place; it seems like a lazy man's fix to balance; slap an elite tag and you're good to go rather than actually looking at the skill closely and making adjustments to cost/recharge/effects. Looking at how many elite skills are subpar/plain bad, it seems that attitude was a big reason in implementing the elite system which I find rather sad

.

Bast · Jul 28, 2005, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Making NR elite wouldn't fully solve the Oath Shot+NR problem. What you'd see is R/Mes with Arcane Mimicry and either Oath or NR. More energy intensive and slower, sure. but it's doable. The elite tag is not a good option.

NR is fundamentally flawed. Perhaps increasing the "doubles cast times on hexes and enchants" and dropping the enchantment nuking would make a difference, but that's a massive nerf. However, tripling or quadrupling cast times on hexes/enchants could be highly disruptive to a team's timing.

Hm. What about changing NR from the enchantment nuker to something that doubles the cost of enchantment maintenance? Leave the double cast time.

Sarus · Jul 28, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

In regards to Putrid ...
I don't really think the skill is unbalanced. After all, it's usefulness is restricted to basically tombs and only in certain narrow situations. Normally, the exploding bodies don't really do too much. The exception here is of course dais maps and the occasional unlucky teams that happen to get stuck in a putrid chain.

That being said the two problems I see with putrid and any other of the super fast corpse exploitation skills is that they basically nullify the use of any wells as the wells casting times make them basically impossible to ever use. In all honesty maybe this isn't a problem and I can't think of a fix that wouldn't totally nerf putrid.

The other problem I see is that when playing a character with putrid it becomes a button slamming mash fest. It doesn't matter if you think someone is actually dead or even if you think they're about to die. You just run around slamming on that hotkey in the hopes you'll beat out the enemy necro who is doing the exact same thing. I really like zraves suggestion that you make failed uses of putrid (i.e., no corpse to exploit) still cost energy. This would limit the amount of button smashing. I think this would be similar to how things like inspired hex work. It still costs energy even if there is no hex to remove but the skill does not get used up.

I'd like to inject a little humor into the post by posting a very exclusive short video.

This is a short video of none other than Charles Ensign himself playing a necro with putrid in a typical iQ tombs run. (It's very short so even slow internet connections should have no problem).

http://www.mekamedia.com/misc/putrid.gif

*In Tribute to Linkie

Nefser · Jul 28, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

roflmao <--- and while at work, which got more than a few stares.

Btw, I figured it would be much quicker than that. Something closer to spontaneous combustion. Perhaps it was just slowed waaay down.

Silmor · Jul 28, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

The video doesn't show the effect of putrid explosion itself, the video demonstrates the intricate skill required to optimally use putrid explosion in a Tombs environment, i.e. button mashing until you drop.

Ensign · Jul 28, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Slapping the elite tag on Nature's Renewal would be a start but I don't think it would actually fix the problem. I know that I, for one, would happily spend an elite slot on a skill that single-handedly destroys an enormous set of strategies. Dropping Nature's Renewal hoses one character on their team? It's already good. Hitting more than one member of their team is backbreaking. Eliting it would be good, sure, but all that would do is lead to less variety (1-2 elites per team taken instead of a few character slots) as builds destroyed by Nature's Renewal would still be marginalized. That skill needs a nerf until it really is a safety net type skill, not a generalized sledgehammer.

Putrid Explosion and Fertile Season are only really problems in Tombs and particularly the Hall of Heroes, to be sure. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be addressed. The Hall of Heroes, despite its random nature, is still an incredibly important map - it's the only area of the game that isn't instanced, it's the only source of Celestial Sigils in the game, and success there announces your guild to the entire world. It's not something that should be swept under the rug, balance-wise.

On general themes, there are a couple of things that need to be looked at. The first is enchantment removal, and how pathetic it is - it'll be impossible to pull Nature's Renewal out of builds until there are reasonable enchantment stripping options available. Shatter Enchantment isn't used as removal, but as a conditional nuke - Drain Enchantment is energy management. Rend Enchantments and Chilblains are the only options nearly good enough, and both of those are prohibitively expensive. We need a full spectrum of options.

Energy denial is the other problem. Thematically it's the strongest disruption in the game, and it's priced far too aggressively compared to the other options available. Granted most other options have been rendered obsolete by Nature's Renewal, but it is something to keep an eye on.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Jul 28, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

...Fertile Season are only really problems in Tombs and particularly the Hall of Heroes, to be sure. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be addressed. The Hall of Heroes, despite its random nature, is still an incredibly important map - it's the only area of the game that isn't instanced, it's the only source of Celestial Sigils in the game, and success there announces your guild to the entire world. It's not something that should be swept under the rug, balance-wise.

On general themes, there are a couple of things that need to be looked at. The first is enchantment removal, and how pathetic it is - it'll be impossible to pull Nature's Renewal out of builds until there are reasonable enchantment stripping options available. Shatter Enchantment isn't used as removal, but as a conditional nuke - Drain Enchantment is energy management. Rend Enchantments and Chilblains are the only options nearly good enough, and both of those are prohibitively expensive. We need a full spectrum of options.

Energy denial is the other problem. Thematically it's the strongest disruption in the game, and it's priced far too aggressively compared to the other options available. Granted most other options have been rendered obsolete by Nature's Renewal, but it is something to keep an eye on.

Peace,
-CxE

Nature's renewal is a reflection of the problem with enchantments, more specifically monk enchantments. While it does also help to address some of the more spamable hexes used to cover more important ones, the spamable hexes do not have as crippling effects as things found within healing ball and life bond strategies, which have littel to no recast time compared to the time that it is active. The biggest problem is having a wide variety of skills or methods to allow for the skill to last longer than the refresh rate causing the counter methods to be outpaced by simply reapplying it from one or more sources. In the worst cases the enchantments do not have any definable duration and have no re-use timer.

Calling for a nerf of natures renewal really means calling for a nerf to all enchantments, or at least a retooling in many instances, in addition to adjusting methods to reduce recast and make copies of skills, then rebalancing them to still have a usable and intended effect. Following that, enchantment removal would need to be re-examined and possibly added to 1 or 2 classes. Then the game would have to be re-examined again weighing defense versus offense options under the new limitations and most likely would lead towards more varied defensive, but self only, skills to counter balance the now large abscence of monk related spammable skills.

Nature's renewal, in its current form, screams of a safety net, in order to prevent unkillable setups and combinations. This is the pvp solution to the problem, while the pve solution has been to add widespread enchantment removal on large groups of enemies throughout the game. It is merely a bandaid and it would seem that the problem is outgrowing it finally.

Orochim4ru · Jul 28, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

in order to prevent unkillable setups and combinations.

Every combination is killable in a simple and effective manner. rend/linger+spike.

How's about echo/shatter enchant? the mes spikes for a huge amount, and the defences come down too.

Phades · Jul 28, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Its not that simple. There are counters to the spike outside the defensive shell you are trying to work around. If rend and linger are your only choices for a work around, then you would need alot more than 1-2 people trying to do it. Even then, its not infalable. The problem is that by using those spells tips off who needs the spot coverage, just like how surge->spikes do. By the time you change targets and try again the first guy would very likely be back at the original capacity prior to the rend or curse.

Orochim4ru · Jul 28, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

If the first guy is bonding, he won't be up to speed for at least 60 seconds. If you identify the primary mode of defence, be it the spirit spammer dropping winter/conflag, or the prot monk, or whatever, taking that person down should NOT be a problem. Following up rend with strip and lingering for reactive defence keeps the target dead.

Having a mesmer offtarget defensive players also helps you whittle their defence down.

Jul 28, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Calling for a nerf of natures renewal really means calling for a nerf to all enchantments

Not at all. I dont see how nerfing NR directly correlates into nerfing all enchantments. If you meant nerfing NR means buffing enchantment removal I'd think thats more like it.

Quote:

Following that, enchantment removal would need to be re-examined and possibly added to 1 or 2 classes.

They'd never have to do that, and I hope they wouldnt. Right now this is what they have on removal:

Monks: Can remove conditions and hexes, not enchantments.
Mesmers: Can remove hexes and enchantments, not conditions.
Necros: Can remove enchantments and conditions, not hexes.

Between the 3 of them, 2 of those classes have a clearly defined role. The Necro has the most efficient forms of enchantment removal but thats not saying much since everything else is pretty much shit in a box. They dont need to add more enchantment removal skills in the game, they need to fix the stuff they left out there. They also need to fix the Necro since the class is fastly approaching extinction when compared to the usefulness and options other classes offer.

Creed · Jul 29, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

NR seriously effects enchantments everyones very quick to point it out. It's the only ranger orientated skill which removes enchantments. Amazingly it's also the most effective enchantment removal in the game, but anyway moving on.

NR does'nt only effect enchantments. It also seriously effects hexes. I'm going to use the Necromancer as the example, while both mesmer and hydromancer also have merit here i think it's important to show NR's effect on a necromancer.

In total a Necromancers 3 skill lines which contain skills have: 22 hexes. And a fact which may suprize you a total amount of enchantments numbering: 14.
So the number of skill NR directly effects for the necromancer is 36. That's bad right? But you're saying right now, i can work around that.. and it's true you can. When you consider a staggering 9 of the necromancers elite skills fall into the 36 skills effected you should start to worry. Leaving you a grand total of 6 elite skills not effected by it.

The necromancer has a nice AoE Enchantment strippers too, two of them infact. Actually of all the classes the necromancer has the most enchantment stripping capablities, yet nothing which rivals that of NR.

Examples:
Chilblains:
You become poisoned for 3-13 seconds. Nearby foes are struck for 10-37 cold damage and lose one "Enchantment".

Chilblains is a great skill, one of only 3 skills capable of stripping enchantments which dont allow you get targeted by spells. Such as Obsidian flesh and spell breaker. You pay considerable penalties for this ability, being poisoned is the very obvious one. The secound being a huge energy cost: 25 energy.

Well of the Profane:
Exploit nearest corpse to create a Well of the Profane at its location. For 8-18 seconds, foes in that area are stripped of all Enchantments and cannot be the target of further Enchantments. (50% failure chance with Death Magic 4 or less)

Well of the profane is for obvious reasons quite powerful. It's drawbacks are yet again 25 energy, and the obvious fact you can simply walk outside its AoE and continue fighting without going too far. Neither are true for NR. It also has a failure rate for anyone foolish enough to use it without high attributes in that skill set. Unlike NR. Then again... This skill was placed in a unlikly PvP skill set possibly to draw people too it, again.. unlike NR since a rangers healing is in the same skill set.

Please do not take this post as a 'Necromancers are gimped help!' moan, because it is'nt intended as that. It's a very, very good case against NR. I'm not doubting the fact there are a lack of decent enchantment strippers in the game, but by having a skill like NR, you're drawing players away from a distinctly enchantment stripping class, the necromancer. I say this as the Necro is the only class in the game with 1 enchantment stripper in each and every skill set they have.

A very significant number of the hex spells a necromancer uses have 2+ secounds of cast time. NR doubles that. It makes those skills unplayable. I'd say that was fine if it was a direct skill against these types of game plans, but it is'nt. It's a broad spectrum anti-hex anti-enchantment long lasting easily recasted skill. It not only strips but doubles the cast times on those skill of the same type to follow. Even on paper you have to realize how rediculas this sounds.

Phades · Jul 29, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Not at all. I dont see how nerfing NR directly correlates into nerfing all enchantments. If you meant nerfing NR means buffing enchantment removal I'd think thats more like it.

Well my take on it is that NR is an answer to a possible problem, that problem being enchantments and hexes. Since it has a rather omnipotent effect, then the effect of enchantments unhindered also has an omipotent effect, due to some not having a definable duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Monks: Can remove conditions and hexes, not enchantments.
Mesmers: Can remove hexes and enchantments, not conditions.
Necros: Can remove enchantments and conditions, not hexes.

Between the 3 of them, 2 of those classes have a clearly defined role. The Necro has the most efficient forms of enchantment removal but thats not saying much since everything else is pretty much shit in a box. They dont need to add more enchantment removal skills in the game, they need to fix the stuff they left out there. They also need to fix the Necro since the class is fastly approaching extinction when compared to the usefulness and options other classes offer.

Well you did leave out the obvious ranger example, that can remove enchantments, hexes, and some conditions from himself. This is in addition to creating a beneficial effect when hexed and under the effect of conditions. In my mind i was thinking something along the lines of a water element spell that had some kind of aoe with an enchantment removal effect, being targeted, yet simliar to chillblains. Most classes that have ways of applying conditions, enchantments or hexes also have the ability to counter them.

I made that suggestion, due to the fact that under the current model, the enchantment removal options can only really keep up with removing one spell from one person and even then is outpaced by the recast times on many enchantments. The only real exception to this would be lingering curse, well of the profane, and nature's renewal. This is due to the multi-layered stripping and being available every 10 seconds, but unfortunatly they have 3-5 second casting times and both lingering curse and well of the profane are conditional, while nature's renewal is not. Also nature's renewal is also 1/5th the casting cost of either of the other 2 methods and its effect is global.

Unless you are suggesting knocking down the cast time to 1s (or less)and removing the recast time on enchantment removal, then it would never catch up to the pace that monks are able to apply enchantments. Then you would also have to take it a step further and begin reducing the energy cost, so that the spells could actually be cast at that rate and sustained, matching the 5-10 energy cost of many of the spells they are removing.

No matter what happens, alot needs to change, but i feel it would help the game more by going back to the root of the problem instead of trying to work around it.

Sammiel · Jul 29, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calnaion Blackhawk

i think he just wants enything that gives him trouble in ToPK taken away or weakened.
i know ill make a post on how i hate that balth aura can be cast on other players, and that mesmer spells drain "too" much energy.
and yes, i am a spirit spammer ranger, and i love NR as it deals with all the smart asses that rely on spells and enchantments and nothing else

NR is imbalanced because it removes an two entire classes of spells from the game for all practical purposes. As if that were not enough it also is cheap, and hard to interrupt permanently thanks to oath shot and possibly QZ/Serpents too. If you cannot see the balance issues caused by that, I don't think you are qualified to take part in this conversation. However on the flip side, enchantments would likely become too powerful again without NR, so its a tough nut to crack.

Ishamael Sedai · Jul 29, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Lets assume the effect of the new nature's renewal didn't take place until the old one dies and that casting times for enchants & hexes is 25% longer rather than 100% longer. NR could have a set life of 60 seconds. NR is still extremely powerful and in the mean time until they come up with other fixes it can in a way counter the healing ball, but it does not completely nullify enchant and condition builds. With 25% longer recast many builds are still playable and they have 60 seconds to work. Once your team notices all of their hexes & enchants were removed they know the exact time when the next removal is coming and work within those boundaries.

IxChel · Jul 29, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

What if Nature's Renewal didn't strip all enchancements/hexes immediately, but did its work over time. Every N seconds, a random creature would be chosen, and exactly one hex and one enchantment would be stripped (the top one). The N seconds can start out at 10 seconds or so, and then decrease to about 3 seconds with very high Wilderness. Further, if there are N spirits active, the one with the most frequent stripping rate is the only one that works (so it cannot be stacked).

The advantage of this nerf is that it keeps the spirit of the ritual -- stripping of hexes and enchantments -- but moves this action over the life of the spirt. In effect, giving the spirit something to do. So, if someone doesn't like the spirit, they can kill it to stop the random stripping. As a correlary Fertile Season would have to be fixed so that it doesn't effect spirits (and possibly undead). This makes sense, of course, since a Spirit isn't exactly living.

Jul 29, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Well you did leave out the obvious ranger example, that can remove enchantments, hexes, and some conditions from himself.

Well of course I left out NR

Apply poison also because I never really consider it condition removal since it only removes three.

Quote:

This is in addition to creating a beneficial effect when hexed and under the effect of conditions. In my mind i was thinking something along the lines of a water element spell that had some kind of aoe with an enchantment removal effect, being targeted, yet simliar to chillblains. Most classes that have ways of applying conditions, enchantments or hexes also have the ability to counter them.

They simply cant do that at the moment. They just have too much of a problem balancing what they have now, and throwing another enchantment removal spell on that level would just end the use of chillblains, which is small enough as is, and put the Necro class into even further into the uselessness heap.

Quote:

I made that suggestion, due to the fact that under the current model, the enchantment removal options can only really keep up with removing one spell from one person and even then is outpaced by the recast times on many enchantments. The only real exception to this would be lingering curse, well of the profane, and nature's renewal. This is due to the multi-layered stripping and being available every 10 seconds, but unfortunatly they have 3-5 second casting times and both lingering curse and well of the profane are conditional, while nature's renewal is not. Also nature's renewal is also 1/5th the casting cost of either of the other 2 methods and its effect is global.

Remeber that LC is also a steep 25 energy cost, which means to a primary Necro its not always available. You also left out Rend, which behind NR is the most effective mass ER there is.

Quote:

Unless you are suggesting knocking down the cast time to 1s (or less)and removing the recast time on enchantment removal, then it would never catch up to the pace that monks are able to apply enchantments.

They dont even need to swing it that hard. They just need to put back ER the way it used to be. Back in around November when enchantments were running wild, Alpha players in testing werent using Enchantment removal for a reason no one will ever understand, and it got nerfed anyway. This was back when Strip Enchantment was a 6 second recast and didnt give back HP, 2 second cast time. Pretty fair. They dont need every piece of ER to be low cooldown, they just need enough of them playable, specialized enough and differing from each other to have a chance to be run.

I remember complaining a billion times about it, and the devs kept saying to prove it. Prove how Enchantments are broken and how ER isnt enough. Said something about ER should be used "strategically". This was in the face of iQ and other guilds holding the hall with massive enchantment chains and shutting everything down when NR was bugged. It was after lots of detailed posts on how ER cant counter what its supposed to counter. To this day I have never heard them admit to trying to fix it. So I'm not sure if they really feel like balancing this shit sometimes, if they are just too stubborn and dont want to admit they are wrong, or if they just dont know wtf they are doing. Telling someone to prove something when a quick trip to Tombs or GvG from the beginning of the WPE all the way to the day NR was fixed would have shown anyone what we were talking about was true. Whatever, the balance in this game has gone to shit and I could care less if they are scared of balancing before a major tournament. They've had more than enough time to fix this shit.

Phades · Jul 29, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I left out rend intentionally due to its 30s cooldown. Comparing it against things with a 0s cooldown or the more reasonable 4-10s cooldowns is not really a fair comparison. Sure you can alpha strike it in use, but there is also the window for reaction time from multiple monks and other characters tuned for support/enchant builds. Communication is the key as per normal, so in essence the rend option is only truly an option within the pug realm. Rend also requires a fair amount of attribute points thrown at it to get the most from it, even though the high end enchantment count becomes impractical and potentially dangerous on the hp count.

Conversly lingering and well of the profane can be stopped by more indirect means, but considering the state of rend enchantments as the *only* means for multiple layers to be removed, it is beyond inadequate and laughable. This would be assuming of course that NR is removed from its current role to strip all enchantments. Changing nature's renewal to only do 1 layer globally, would also render chillblains just as obscelete considering how the ranger can cycle NR currently. Suggesting for other new means for removal seemed to be reasonable and having something being targeted versus pbaoe didnt seem too unreasonable, as it would share the weaknesses from all other targeted spells.

By contrast to making the ER extreemly low cooldown, they could just give a high cooldown to the enchantments balancing it out on the other end of the scale. Think about it this way, consider how silly it would be if unyielding aura or vengence had no cooldown time. Instead of no one every staying dead, you can create situations where no one really dies. Both are just as problematic.

Ensign · Jul 29, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

While it does also help to address some of the more spamable hexes...

I don't think that Nature's Renewal is being used to fight hexes, at all. I always thought there was a decent balance between power hexes and removal anyway. Nature's Renewal came into builds to fight enchantments - that it viciously hates out hexes as well is just splash damage.

Not that the fact that it destroys hexes as well should be glossed over - the majority of good Warrior or Ranger hate is hex based and Nature's Renewal polarizes that battle further. But hex removal is a side effect, plain and simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Calling for a nerf of natures renewal really means calling for a nerf to all enchantments

Not neccessarily a nerf to enchantments, but it is calling for a re-examination of enchantment / enchantment removal balance. Players need to have tools available for cracking enchantment based builds besides having to pull out the sledgehammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Every combination is killable in a simple and effective manner. rend/linger+spike.

Unless, of course, the team you're trying to kill recognizes your strategy and sticks a Mesmer on your Necro. 3 second cast times are trivial to interrupt. If there's one thing we learned about elemental spike builds while running our healing ball, it's that if they don't get their Rend or Linger off, they don't have a build. It's fairly trivial to beat a team if you only have to interrupt one guy casting 3 second spells to shut down their entire offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Said something about ER should be used "strategically".

Well enchantment removal is decent if you want to use it "strategically". Strip Enchantment is ok if all you want is for it to remove one long recharge enchantment, like Illusionary Weaponry. Perfectly reasonable strategic use. Inspired Enchantment can be used much the same way, but it gives information instead of health. Drain Enchantment is really a conditional energy management skill - Shatter Enchantment is really a conditional nuke. Whatever.

Rend Enchantments and Lingering Curse are decent if you want to buy a couple seconds of soft target to pair with a damage spike. Perfectly reasonable "strategic" use there.

So, yeah, if their goal was to make "strategically interesting" enchantment removal, they succeeded.

Of course the problem is that I can run a power enchantment build that'll stack buffs ten deep and *laugh* at all of your "strategic" removal. Because "strategic" removal, while interesting in spot circumstances, isn't terribly efficient and certainly isn't powerful enough to get into a slugfest with a strong strategy. Strategic enchantments are countered by strategic spot removal, sure. But power enchantments need power removal, and the only skills even approaching that are Chilblains and Nature's Renewal. (Well of the Profane would be interesting if it could actually be cast over Putrid in situations where it would be called for). The other problem is that power enchantments is a fundamentally strong strategy, particularly for defensive or hall holding builds, making power removal something that every build is going to want to have available - and, right now, the options simply are not there.

Besides, you know, the sledgehammer.

Peace,
-CxE