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Jul 26, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37
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#101 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Awaiting GW2
Profession: W/
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Not improving game balancing because the game will never be perfectly balanced has to be the worst logic I have ever heard in my life
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39
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#102 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Blue Island (think Chicago)
Profession: Me/N
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Quote:
As I mentioned in another post, I don't think that a counter is the answer, but for fun I might try and toy around with the build  [your idea may still be better than mine, turning off your own character is never fun. I'd have to scratch my head for a while]-Diomedes |
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43
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#103 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: America
Guild: The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
EDIT - Here's version 2 of ritualist shutdown. R/Me Spike Trap {E} Mantra of Inscription Signet of Humility Leech Signet Distracting Shot Savage Shot Diversion etc Now with knockdown power and guaranteed constant oath shot shutdown. Last edited by Tellani Artini; Jul 26, 2005 at 09:45 PM // 21:45.. |
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44
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#104 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: The Twilight Vanguard [TTV]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Does Nature's Renewal gurantee a win? No. Is it savagely overpowered? Obviously. It's one skill that kills two entire categories of spells instantly. But the main irritant to me is that it sucks so much depth out of the game. No hex heavy builds, no enchantment heavy builds (Although with the aforementioned brokenness of Healing Ball...), no water elementalists... As someone pointed out (I believe it was Odd Sock, I could be wrong), it pares down the number of usable skills quite significantly. Enchantment/Hex Removal in GW has always been a dicey thing, and its without a doubt a hard thing to balance. In balancing Nature's Renewal, the whole mess of it needs looking at. |
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44
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#105 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47
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#106 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I'm just reposting this because no one has commented on it as a possible fix to NR and I think it deserves some thought.
Quote:
I'm just throwing this out there but maybe NR could be made so that when it ENDS normaly (not killed but time runs out on it's life) the enchant/hex stripping effect takes effect. That would be at least 30 seconds to deal with the spirit or get the effect of your already used enchants/hexes somewhat. |
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50
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#107 |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2005
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I've yet to see a team effectively babysit a renewal spammer. Aegis spamming alone can help signifigantly against NR, simply by giving Oath shot a 50% chance to miss(I know a smart Ranger will use Oath on the other teams spirits, if they have them). Imagine Diverting an oath shot, and having it miss. There you go, owned the spirit spammer for 40+ seconds. Quickening Zephyr and Blackout shuts down anything, yet hardly anyone runs a Me/W with this combo. Level 15 Blackout alone, prevents all spirit spamming by a target. I still think there is some discovery to be done, even by the elite guilds. I know in the thick of battle it is hard to get some of these combo's off but if you do, your Healing Seeds, Life Bonds, and Smiting E/Mos will have a field day on a NR reliant team.
If in another month or so NR is still as popular, I can see making it a spell a valid option. As it is now, I still think the more skillful team and not the omg noobs spamming NR build is winning more often than not. |
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55
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#108 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2005
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^^
*does mpost of it* but as NR wipes Aegis and the cast time is doubled it is very iffy to use it to make the ranger miss. (its a race between a 2 second cast and a 0 second cast+arrow flight time) |
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56
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#109 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: America
Guild: The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
Profession: R/
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About the number of enchantments removed by NR. What if you leave the radius for an instant then go back inside? What if they set up multiple NR's in a wide area so that during the fight you're bound to enter/exit them a few times? It seems kind of sketchy and I'm not sure it would fix anything, really. The NR users will just boost their wilderness survival and keep on happily oath shot spamming with quickening zephyr to pop one out every 10 seconds or so, removing x enchantments at a time.
The two best solutions I've heard for NR that don't involve global changes to all rituals are as follows: - Make it not strip enchantments or hexes, but keep the double cast time effect - Make it elite |
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Jul 26, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00
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#110 | |||||||||
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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Quote:
Basically holding the hall is a game of 'Fertile Season or bust', and when all your team has to do is protect a Fertile spammer, you're in for an easy ride unless both teams trying to kick you off the dais know what they are doing. Nature's Renewal is more of a systemic problem, from the builds that it destroys because it exists. You can shut down a Nature's Renewal spammer as strategy has changed and their offense and disruptive elements have to get kills, so you can play around it if that's what they're doing. If they're smart and running several distributed copies of Nature's Renewal, though, they can force it down your throat. But none of that is the problem, really. It's that Nature's Renewal becomes the singular focus of any match that it's a part of. You can either dedicate a huge part of your build to trying to shut down Nature's Renewal, and *still* get smashed by it once a mistake is made, or you can just play around Nature's Renewal and ignore a huge segment of the game. Option two is preferable. Quote:
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You want to know the entire problem with Nature's Renewal? Design a build to be robust in the face of Nature's Renewal spam. We know that interrupting every copy of a ritual that can and will be run on several characters is unreliable. So you have to harden your defense. Run skills that aren't destroyed by Nature's Renewal, find techniques to be proactive against Nature's Renewal so that even when it does come down you're in good shape to win. Now ask yourself why you aren't running Nature's Renewal yourself. Counters to air spike pull you in directions away from spike damage and towards winning a longer battle - from Fertile Season to defensive Mesmers to aggressive usage of Prot Spirit with hard targets. Counters to smiting work in a similar fashion, requiring different sorts of characters to be effective. Nature's Renewal is pervasive, it affects every character in your build. It adjusts them to not be hosed by NR. Once you're hardened to NR, you toss in your own copies to smash anyone who hasn't prepared as much as you have. Countering NR does not lead to variety. It leads to mirror matches. Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28
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#111 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Heh, everyone is acting as though it's easy to shutdown a ritual spammer. Yes, you can make an anti-ritual spammer to shutdown that one person with oath shot but is there a rule that a team must only have 1 person with fertile or renewal? Even if they have multiple people who can potentially shut down a renewal spammer they aren't going to run an enchant build because one mistake and the renewal will be down and your whole build is screwed (plus with multiple people designed to shut down renewal spammers your build will suck vs anything else).
Remember that it is not difficult to make a solid build that won't get screwed by renewal. But the whole point that a lot of people are missing is that renewal spam kills off so many options and destroys the atmosphere of pvp by severely limiting the number of viable builds and skills. The 'it's easy to interrupt' ability is not enough; remember the broken fertile season right after release where people had many thousands of hp because it stacked? That got fixed pretty fast; this needs the same attention. However, renewal is only the surface issue. There is still the core problem of enchants vs enchant removal, without renewal enchants are so absurdly overpowering because your best anti-enchant weapon (rend) has a 30 second recharge. Renewal as of now is bad for good solid gameplay but a game where people just layer enchants on each other is not very good either; it will take longer to be known than just plain renewal spam but at that point pvp will be simply dumb with everyone cross-stacking enchants and chafe like mad; defense>offense is one thing but enchants are way out of line. As for fixing renewal, making it heavily attribute based isn't going to be enough. It's still too destructive to half the builds in the game and people will crank it up to whatever attribute is needed. The remove enchants/hexes needs to be off entirely. The double casting time should still be there but should be attribute based, perhaps 1.5 casting time of enchant/hexes at 6 and 2x at 12 because that is a very powerful bonus. Quote:
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Jul 27, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14
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#112 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Pasadena, California
Profession: Mo/
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Ensign: I think you're missing the point. The reason the metagame is stagnant is precisely because it isn't moving toward a monoculture. It is precisely the existence of a significant proportion unhardened, non-NR builds that prevent builds from abandoning NR. It is precisely because the metagame is not perfectly efficient that the marginal utility of extra copies of NR exceeds that of extra damage skills in the same slot. As you mentioned, in a hypothetical metagame where every other team runs NR, you'd be best off running an identical build but with damage elements in the skill slots where NR is normally placed. It is precisely the existence of less robust but more powerful builds that retards the advancement of the environment, even though there's really no reason to run these builds over NR builds. From what I've seen and expect, the metagame at any of the ongoing or upcoming tournaments, especially beyond the preliminary rounds, is reflected only poorly in general GvG.
Last edited by taion; Jul 27, 2005 at 01:50 AM // 01:50.. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20
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#113 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Michigan
Guild: Lords of the Dead
Profession: Mo/
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Natures Renewal is definately one of the most powerful skills in the game. 1 skill should not have the ability to remove every enchantment and hex. Thats just rediculous, if a build that doesnt focus on enchants or hexes uses that against a build that does, that one skill can be devastating to that entire build, thats rediculous. Especially when Enchantments make up a big part of the skills available in GW. Because of this skill, people are not using enchantments as much as they used to, heck its forbiddon to use enchantments as part of your strategy now-a-days.
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Jul 27, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16
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#114 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
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NR is virtually uncounterable. With that said, it's uncounterable due to the fact it's spam-ability.
I've heard some ideas for fixes so far which are atleast reasonable. This being the rough conclusion to all those ideas. -Stop its spamability. Allow only 1 nature ritual of its kind on the field at anyone time. You could also create it so all spirits on the field of the same type are linked. Almost like a EoE of sorts. Kill one and they all go down, it'll effectivly have the same balance factor as only having 1 on the field at any given time, but allow the Ranger to 1. Dis-enchant again. 2. Increase the spirits AoE. Ever since i've had a ranger, i've looked at how you might defeat spirits. They are basically enchantments which no one can remove from themselves.. and the rangers more prepared for these enchantments than you.. The obvious plan is to attack the spirits, and then you suddenly realize they have 3+ spirits all well spread out.. by the time you kill one they'll have another down and 2-3 attacks in on you. Currently as many people have said and will continue to say: It simply pigeon holes the effective skills in the game, taking any potential heavy hex or enchantment builds completly out of the fold. It needs a fix but to 'nerf' somthing means you remove somthing from it. I suggest they add what i proposed above a 'Spirit Link' Killing all spirits if one of the same type goes down on the map. I am by no means claiming this is the only problem in the game. I am showing a theory which could potentially balance the Spirits. I am not claiming spirits are the only problem, dont take this 'focused' post as such, i simply dont have any theories or fixes for the others
Last edited by Creed; Jul 27, 2005 at 02:21 AM // 02:21.. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28
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#115 | |
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Ministry of Technology
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Washington D.C.
Guild: Idiot Savants
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
 . You should be a politician. They talk forever and in the end get nothing across. Could you rephrase this into a few concise and easy to understand sentences for us laymen? (I'm not being sarcastic at all either ... I really want to know what your opinion is as it seems like you have something interesting to get across. I apologize for my subpar english comprehension) OKay ... Here's what I think you're saying. "NR is a problem because everyone isn't running it yet. Once everyone starts running it then people will be able to stop running it and take more offensive skills in it's place." Hope that's correct 
__________________
M.D.K. GuildWars Guild Last edited by Sarus; Jul 27, 2005 at 02:33 AM // 02:33.. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37
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#116 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2005
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The problem with Nature's Renewal is not that it is absolutely counterless, for those of you proposing counters. It is the fact that it takes more effort and skill slots (and player skill, I might add) to counter it.
Precise timing, specialized skill slots, and actively observing for Nature's Renewal is necessary to counter it. For the ranger casting Nature's Renewal, it is necessary to press the skill slot button for it. It is a disparity between a great deal of effort and very little. The imbalance comes from the fact that: 1) A build is decimated if it totally does not account for Nature's Renewal. 2) A build is rendered far less effective if it is attempting to counter Nature's Renewal as the time, skill slots, and effort put into doing so could be used for other purposes (which the team casting Nature's Renewal does not have a problem with, as their side's execution takes far less of all three). 3) And finally, builds that are designed to run completely under Nature's Renewal are extremely limited and eventually lead to monotony in PvP. Much of this has already been stated in other ways by other posters, though I believe it doesn't hurt to have it stated a different way for those who did not understand it the way the other posters phrased it. The bottom line is, Nature's Renewal certainly isn't invincible, but it is overly effective for the effort and resources devoted to it. In other words, "overpowered". Of course, my own experience in PvP is limited as I personally have not found a guild that I am interested in joining on a permanent basis, thus has no experience in GvG battles. However, from what I've seen outside of GvG, I do believe that Nature's Renewal at this point has a detrimental effect on gameplay. "Healing Balls" are (or should I say, were) a problem, as stated, with no truly effective counter except for Rend Enchantments and the like that could, again, be countered more easily by the Healing Ball than the other team. Perhaps enchantment removal can be multi-layered with different attributes, as Luggage suggested. My own suggestion? As said, my experience is limited in scope so I apologize if it seems foolish: One of the reasons that Nature Rituals are as they are is for the reason of diversity in gameplay. Besides a basic spell, Rituals were meant to have long range and broad effects. My proposition is to keep it that way. In fact, even keep the enchantment and hex stripping effects of Nature's Renewal. Instead: 1) Make Nature's Renewal easily interruptable. 2) Lengthen Nature's Renewal's casting time slightly (even as little as one more second) 3) Make the symbol above the character when casting Nature's Renewal more prominant and easily noticed. My reasoning is this addresses the problem of Nature's Renewal being too hard to counter with too powerful an effect for the effort involved. The reasons for each: 1) Nature's Renewal has too few counters. Why is this not TOO detrimental to Nature's Renewal? The range of the spirit is VERY large. 2) Because the range is very large, it is often that when it is noticed that it is being cast, it is too far away to effectively do anything about it. However, this is more optional, as one single casting of Nature's Renewal is not the problem--it is its continual use, which 1) should amend. This is mainly because oath shot allows it to be used again almost immediately--an effect I believe should remain. 3) Nature's Renewal's effect is very powerful. It should be noticed, especially with its very large range. Also, I personally believe observant teams should have benefit. The reason I support this type of modification is because Nature's Renewal, if a team truly wishes to use it, should still be viable. Right now, as everyone says, the effect is very powerful. My belief is, since the range is so large, it should be usable, even if easily interruptable, as not many might notice it being cast. If a team wishes to take fertile season, healing, and various buffs to keep the spirit well off (and use oath shot to recharge and cast it again discretely) then it is enough effort, I believe, to make up for the effect. I think extreme and broad modifications should be avoided, because, as another said, it has a ripple effect. Ah, and as a final note, I believe as another poster (Ensign, I believe) said, Fertile Season spirit should not affect itself... perhaps its base life can be lessened. I don't think this spirit is as much of an issue because there are very few situations where this would not boost the opposing team as well in a very large way. (I suppose if you run a Protective Spirit, low-health monk this might be an exception) As for the others... I don't see them quite as pressing. However, I do believe enchantment removing in levels (1...4 enchantments removed, ect.) based on attribute level should be looked at for other enchantment removing spells. Again, my apologies if this seems ridiculous--I have only my own experience to base this on. Also, my apologies as well for the very long post. Edit: Quote:
If it is difficult, as you say, to counter because of its "spammability", wouldn't one copy simply lessen the range of its problems? That wasn't very clear so: What is to prevent a ranger from, immediately after that one copy of the ritual is destroyed, simply recast it. I believe that is what you meant by its problem being in its spammability. If not, this particular aspect of it is still a problem. Also, the same with all spirits of the same type being destroyed when the first is--the ranger would still be able to recast after they are destroyed, wouldn't he/she? That sounds very much like an attempted fix, and a good idea if the range of the spirit was the primary problem at the moment. However, there is really nothing that can be done except address one problem at a time--the same way, for those who like examples, Starcraft did. Sarus: I believe what he is trying to say is that if people try harder to counter Nature's Renewal, the people running Nature's Renewal will have no choice but to abandon it. I disagree with that opinion though, as many are already trying and there isn't any truly effective counter when the counter to the counter is merely to recast it. Last edited by Avantos; Jul 27, 2005 at 02:51 AM // 02:51.. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31
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#117 |
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Sig Fairy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Once upon a time..
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Hello everyone, and please excuse the interruption
Both sides of this flame war have been warned thoroughly. To everyone, if you can't post constructively, and keep all personal attacks/references out of your argument, just don't post at all. From this point on, I'm going to be very delete-happy, and so please watch your tone. Thank you, Aria
__________________
Ensign: It's the Questions and Answers, not Questions and Shit We Just Made Up. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 03:43 AM // 03:43
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#118 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Guild: We Cause Seizures [POKE]
Profession: Me/Mo
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I agree that making Nature's Renewal an elite skill could be a first step to lessen the problem. The skill is very good and should be treated as such. The fact that it strips enchantments is amazing, but I wonder if removing this part of the skill will make it worthy of an elite. Hehe, I want to see people use Well of the Profane!
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Jul 27, 2005, 04:00 AM // 04:00
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#119 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
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What i said at first was over zealous. I did'nt really mean to say it was uncounterable, uncounterable is way too harsh a description.
Quote:
While most pre-game tactics are focused to stopping a certin game plan, any spirit spam stopping game plan seems to revolves very much around stopping NR. Fertile season obviously also has alot of weight in this discussion, but lets leave it out for now. The fact is meta game comes down to stopping game plans. Not a singular skill. NR might not be unstoppable, but when picking skills you're revolving it around which ones this specific skill does'nt effect it has already shown it's dominance. Meaning without already having counter measures specifically against NR it is unstoppable. It's 5am here, and i'm most likly not thinking straight  so i'll look back tomorrow or later with some clearer thoughts.
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Jul 27, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02
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#120 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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For those suggesting it be an elite skill...this will help moderately with you being unable to stack oath shot and renewal but it still doesn't solve the problem of renewal.
Reccomending something to be elite is always a bad idea; it's just a bad band-aid solution and not something lasting that we'll want. |
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