Curse

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 02, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Gaile has tried to respond calling our claims stupid and frivilous by disputing the number of guilds quiting

we responded by pointing out ones we forgot earlier, adding around 20 more to the list.

Anyway this post might seem stupid, but keep it up in all seriousness, discussion is good and most conversations have periods of idleness but hopefully a spark will hit this one.

Anyway if more people would argue against the claims (pvp being broken or discouraging, I would love to hear more input from the other side of the coin)

Kaylee Ann · Aug 02, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

I farmed 1.2 million XP in one week flat with no immense time investment (just in the evenings, Augie and I had XP farm run competitions lol). The skill I abused: Zealot's Fire. 1.2 mil in a week isn't broken ? Either they are very dumb or poor at math, I hate grind but even that is way too fast.

P.S.: PM me and I will gladly give you the build and how to use it (you need a monk primary)

I know it is, I have done relatively the same thing with my e/mo. They made it even worse when those scrolls came out. The difference is you actually put some numbers in your post atleast somewhat showing that something is broken, instead of saying faction sucks *insert rant here*.

Legendary Battousai · Aug 02, 2005, 10:05 PM // 22:05

rpg is great. everything about it is well done except for the predictable storyline. only problem is, it sucks to play it twice, or 3 times just to unlock skills.

. There I said something good... yet hork, you didnt seem to finish your last post: Anyway if more people would argue against the claims. Then you just added parenthathees and ended... im confused ^_^

oh and umm i fixed the numbers for you, nerd

enjoy. you might want to edit your post too; im surpised being 1,000 off really makes that big of a difference. someone reallly over exaggurates.

Aniewiel · Aug 02, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamblemonkee

That depends onyour definition of casual - to me, even an hour per night is not casual, but thats for a dif topc.

This thread is severely off-topic now too, we're along way from providing helpful suggestions andare full steam ahead into rhetoric and speculation land.

Shamblemonkee, this thread was never about ideas, I'm afraid. It is this site's example of the "I hate ArenaNet" virus that has swept the GW community. Hopefully, we'll get -back- to ideas before someone closes the thread.

***HINT HINT***

Zrave · Aug 02, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Someone asked for details, so at least in my view, there are three serious problems with the PvP in game right now:

1) Unlocks:

I am an avid MMORPG player and have no problem grinding to unlock everything; I have every rune, weapon mod, and 95% of elites unlocked atm, should be done by tomorrow. However, this game was marketed as not having any grind, therefore we suffered a "bait and switch", which I expect would considerably anger all the people that dislike grind.

Obviously UAS is out of the question by now, but Arenanet needs to realize that people seriously interested in PvP want to have all the options available instead of just what they need for one or two characters. Assuming normal patterns of playing, it takes about 1000 hours of gameplay to achieve this.

Solutions? I would recommend increasing the efficiency of faction skill unlocks by a factor of 2. The weapon mods you usually need only a few (due to poor balancing, but thats beside the point), and the runes if necessary you can just buy, so they are not as big a deal. Farming for skill points is not that terrible at the moment, the new scrolls help a lot. You can get a skill point every 10 minutes and it used to take around 30. However, capping elites is still very troublesome. Making elites more reliable to cap would be nice too - at least for a PvP player, its quite annoying to play for 15 minutes only to realize that the boss didn't spawn, and I'm sure some PvE guys might dislike it as well.

2) Skill Balancing

There are obvious skill imbalances in the game right now. I rather liked how in the BWEs I could design an overpowered combo, only to find that it had been nerfed by the next event. Made it a challenge, you see. However, all skill tweaking has stopped for 3 months now. We are not yet at the point where we can just let metagaming account for minor skill imbalances, there are some serious problems still out there. Just for the sake of completeness, I'll list them here:

PvE

Protective Bond

PvP

Nature's Renewal
Fertile Season
Ether Renewal
Zealot's Fire
Putrid Explosion

There are other threads that discuss these problems in particular. I won't suggest particular fixes because that just opens a can of worms, but the solution here is to start balancing skills again. I wouldn't mind seeing a buff to weak skills as well, which we all know there are plenty of.

The current environment is not a pristine paradise whose delicate balance we should be wary of disrupting, but rather a CORROSIVE SWAMP that needs to get drained, ASAP. If you have pugged casually in tombs and got rolled by a E/Mo smiter in 15 seconds, you know this feeling. I seriously don't know why the casual PvP players haven't just given up by now - losing to imbalance is never fun. For the serious PvP player, it just reduces your options tremendously since we are almost down to cookie cutters by now.

3) Lack of PvP Rewards

The third problem is that there is no goals to fight for. Tombs? Not as much wealth as you could get by just farming, even without figuring in the time it takes to get there. The rank animations and global message are a nice touch though. GvG? Ladder resets, so it doesn't really matter. Oh, and you get some faction, so you can... play more pvp?

What we need is a big tournament. GvG tournaments are starting to spring up, and thats good. Things won't start to heat up until prizes are involved, though. Korea had a big tournament just before launch, and I'm sure that inspired a lot people.

Sammiel · Aug 02, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

Gaile has tried to respond calling our claims stupid and frivilous by disputing the number of guilds quiting

we responded by pointing out ones we forgot earlier, adding around 20 more to the list.

Anyway this post might seem stupid, but keep it up in all seriousness, discussion is good and most conversations have periods of idleness but hopefully a spark will hit this one.

Anyway if more people would argue against the claims (pvp being broken or discouraging, I would love to hear more input from the other side of the coin)

I doubt most people would disagree with the overall point of your post, but the tone, content, and hyperbole contained within it are what are likely turning people off. Both game devs and the general gamer would take it a lot more seriously if it was presented well and refrained from both demonizing the devs and using hyperbole in an attempt to convey a point. A case in point is the increasing numbers of hours being quoted as needed to unlock all skills. First it was 300 hours, then 400, then 500, now I hear quotes of 800. It started out realistic then got progressively more hyped up and incorrect.

Also, stop saying the devs are doing nothing. Are they doing less than you want? Probably. Are they doing nothing? No. Making sweeping balance adjustments in a short period of time is a recipe for disaster. Also claims that the devs viciously lied to you are unlikely to get any traction either.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 02, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammiel

I doubt most people would disagree with the overall point of your post, but the tone, content, and hyperbole contained within it are what are likely turning people off. Both game devs and the general gamer would take it a lot more seriously if it was presented well and refrained from both demonizing the devs and using hyperbole in an attempt to convey a point. A case in point is the increasing numbers of hours being quoted as needed to unlock all skills. First it was 300 hours, then 400, then 500, now I hear quotes of 800. It started out realistic then got progressively more hyped up and incorrect.

Also, stop saying the devs are doing nothing. Are they doing less than you want? Probably. Are they doing nothing? No. Making sweeping balance adjustments in a short period of time is a recipe for disaster. Also claims that the devs viciously lied to you are unlikely to get any traction either.

actually the first Completely unlocked account totalled at

603 hours.

But that was using exploits that where later patched.

Meanon of Te

=HT=Ingram · Aug 02, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

PvPers will always complain that they have to play the game, even though the Reward system with faction makes it pretty easy to unlock everything if you Only play PvP you will unlock skills for new character builds rather quickly. If you are PvE and PvP as I am, then you have BOTH options for unlocking which is even quicker. I had most of my stuf unlocked by the time faction came to be, and once it did I started banging away at the harder to find runes, and weapon unlocks. I can now build 4 of the 6 classes with the skill sets I want... There are still a few build I'm working on, but truthfuly I doubt I will ever use them. I'm now working on the last two professions. Mesmer and Necromancer, which I plan to play PvE with cause I have No clue how to use them effectively yet... and would rather learn then have to stumble around in PvP and making an ass of myself with them.
As to playability, well I enjoy the Story missions and quests for myself, but anymore I have been playing it as a single player game... with the occasional CoOp with my friends in my guild.

When I want to play against others I head for PVP. this is also our guilds major gold producer as the Sigils are still highly valued at NPCs. The GvG is nice but still not very popular in my book. we are spread all over the world and its hard to get enough people in the guild that are interested in doing GvG at the same time. all any PvPers ever want to do is Tomb HoH... so its hard to draw them away from that. and most PvEers in our guild don't enjoy GvG either (which I fault for lack of a practice mode for GvG) but thats another issue.

Now that the game is gaining popularity with new players the old players are getting disgusted with the same old thing. well good riddance to you I say. I played this game since January Betas (which I rushed through for testing). Since the Launch I took my time and Enjoyed what I liked and played when I wanted too, not like a Fanatic Addict trying to maintain a fix. So I don't have much pity for those that Ran to the end of the game just to act like they are Elite. whatever. Do what you want. I like where Arenanet is going and I have seen some of the goodies they have planed, much of which they took from our suggestions from beta and alpha. In my personal opinion this is still a simi finished product. it will not be truly gold till chapter two comes out. But they wanted to get it out there and start production runs ASAP. and since it is still a MMORPG people are used to changing environments and gameplay, so I'm sure it was no big issue to them that a few things were not implemented yet.
The mass influx of cheaters(Gold Ebay Buyers / Sellers ) and market inflators at the launch was a problem at first, but they took action and fixed much of that for PvE. Then they addressed PvP with added faction rewards. Now they are working on their Competitive Tournament with spectator...

The new Missions and Explorable areas for PvE will come soon.

After that its back to GvG by adding some goodies in their Halls, as I understand it.

Some more minor updates for traders and crafters are expected, and new bonus areas in the Temple of Ages with the 3 other spirits are also expected for PvEers (but prob not till Chapter Two)... so they are doing what they can for all players. I think once they launch Chapter two, chapter 1 will be near perfect and need little done to it afterward... All new efforts will be directed to the new chapters... Which is expected to expand both PvP and PvE experiences. Cantha is a whole new continent after all, completely separate from Tyria.

Odd Sock · Aug 02, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

The difference is you actually put some numbers in your post atleast somewhat showing that something is broken, instead of saying faction sucks *insert rant here*.

No those numbers are clear and precise in demonstrating ''broken shit''. How can you not see something isn't broken ? Zealot's Fire applies the same way to PvP. I think you should stop your carebareism for ANet and realize this game is spiraling downwards.

I repeat, to anyone who wants the build I will give it to you. I want ANet to see huge numbers of people headed to Talus Chute and amassing crazy XP. Let's get rid of grind once and for all

P.S: Please show us numbers on how the game isn't broken and what we're ranting about is indeed properly working. The reason people rant is that intuitevely they feel something is wrong. When you're sick you feel it. You don't have to go to your doctor and tell him ''my white blood cell count is X ppm, and my eardum pressure is Y Pa thus proving signs of an ear infection''. No, you just tell him: I feel like shit and my ears hurt. That's what people do in GW: they come to forums and say ''Hey ANet, get your head out of your ass and listen to us, you're screwing up''. Trust me, I make a living out of numbers but the first thing they teach you in engineering is it's your common sense that will prevail and tell you something is wrong.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 02, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

PvPers will always complain that they have to play the game, even though the Reward system with faction makes it pretty easy to unlock everything if you Only play PvP you will unlock skills for new character builds rather quickly. If you are PvE and PvP as I am, then you have BOTH options for unlocking a which is even quicker. I had most of my stuf unlocked by the time faction came to be, and once it did I started banging away at the harder to find items. I can now build 4 for the 6 classes with the skill sets I want... There are still a few build I'm working on, but truthful I doubt I will ever use them. I'm now working on the last two professions. Mesmer and necromancer, which I plan to play PvE with cause I have No clue how to use them effectively yet... and would rather learn then have to stumble around in PvP and making an ass of myself with them.
As to playability, well I enjoy the Story missions and quests for myself, but anymore I have been playing it as a single player game... with the occasional CoOp with my friends in my guild.

When I want to play against others I head for PVP. this is also our guild major gold producer as the Sigils are still highly valued. The GvG is nice but still not very popular in my book. we are spread all over the world and its hard to get enough people in the guild that are interested in doing GvG. all any PvPers ever want to do is Tomb HoH... so its hard to draw them away from that. and most PvEers in our guild don't enjoy GvG either (which I fault for lack of a practice mode for GvG) but thats another issue.

Now that the game is gaining popularity with new players the old players are getting disgusted with the same old thing. well good riddance to you I say. I played this game since January Betas (which I rushed through for testing). Since the Launch I took my time and Enjoyed what I liked and played when I wanted too, not like a Fanatic Addict trying to maintain a fix. So I don't have much pity for those that Ran to the end of the game just to act like they are Elite. whatever. Do what you want. I like where Arenanet is going and I have seen some of the goodies they have planed, much of which they took from our suggestions from beta and alpha. In my personal opinion this is still a simi finished product. it will not be truly gold till chapter two comes out. But they wanted to get it out there and start production runs ASAP. and since it is still a MMORPG people are used to changing environments and gameplay, so I'm sure it was no big issue to them that a few things were not implemented yet.
The mass influx of cheaters(Gold Ebay Buyers / Sellers ) and market inflators at the launch was a problem at first, but they took action and fixed much of that for PvE. Then they addressed PvP with added faction rewards. Now they are working on their Competitive Tournament with spectator...

The new Missions and Explorable areas for PvE will come soon.

After that its back to GvG by adding some goodies in their Halls, as I understand it.

Some more minor updates for traders and crafters are expected, and new bonus areas in the Temple of Ages with the 3 other spirits are also expected for PvEers (but prob not till Chapter Two)... so they are doing what they can for all players. I think once they launch Chapter two, chapter 1 will be near perfect and need little done to it afterward... All new efforts will be directed to the new chapters... Which is expected to expand both PvP and PvE experiences. Cantha is a whole new continent after all, completely separate from Tyria.

faction isnt a quick way to unlock everything it is in some cases years (arena), and is actually ridiculous.

MSecorsky · Aug 02, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

83.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 02, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

83.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

603 hours was posted, and actually a dev James Phinney responded to it.

It was not made up.

=HT=Ingram · Aug 02, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Faction is Very quick if guilds play GVG but they Still do not. so I still don't have much pity... the majority of PvPers Still only play for the Hall of Heroes or Areans which is a real shame cause GvG is excellent as well... And has Very good Faction rewards for winning...

And 600 hours sounds a little high to me. seems I saw a fully unlocked build on another forums with an age clock of 300 hours... with a combanation of PvE and PvP / GvG faction unlocks.

Crispie · Aug 02, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

If you want to know what the PvP communitys wanted, especially the top guilds, more namely what LotD has been wanting for quite a time now is...

1. Faster Unlocking, so that it doesnt take hundreds of hours of hardcore playing in order to unlock everything.

Other things desired are

1. PvP Content, which has been non-existant.

Theres more, such as stats, etc, but thats the basics.

rii · Aug 02, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Good god man, let me explain again (sorry, im usually more tolerant, but this is getting stupid)

They did not run because they were elite, they ran because they needed elites. THEY DO NOT LIKE PVE. That is fundamental. You may enjoy pve, many others do, but there is a large amount of people (myself included) who did not buy this game to pve, but to pvp, under the false impression through misleading advertising that either a) everything will be ready to pvp, and there the challenge will ly, or b) the unlocking process will be short and painless. Neither of these options have come to pass, it takes 300 hours min of pve (best way) to uau, and thats not what they said. This isnt about bitching, whining, or any of those other fob off words, this is about -they said something would happen
-it didnt

Noone cares about the new pve areas. Well, some do, some will enjo. However, this 'expanding' of the pve does not fix the problems of pvp in any way shape or form. Maybe, some miracle cure is also being inserted in the summer update ,but i doubt it.

Ebay aint cheating. Another topic tbh.

Faction rewards, as having been stated many times, was a plaster, not a fix. Ive probably hit 10,000 faction since it started..... thats 10 skill........ out of 450 :S

Im not going to continue, i think you see what i mean. Can we stop repeating ourselves here?

Sammiel · Aug 02, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

No those numbers are clear and precise in demonstrating ''broken shit''. How can you not see something isn't broken ? Zealot's Fire applies the same way to PvP. I think you should stop your carebareism for ANet and realize this game is spiraling downwards.

I repeat, to anyone who wants the build I will give it to you. I want ANet to see huge numbers of people headed to Talus Chute and amassing crazy XP. Let's get rid of grind once and for all

P.S: Please show us numbers on how the game isn't broken and what we're ranting about is indeed properly working. The reason people rant is that intuitevely they feel something is wrong. When you're sick you feel it. You don't have to go to your doctor and tell him ''my white blood cell count is X ppm, and my eardum pressure is Y Pa thus proving signs of an ear infection''. No, you just tell him: I feel like shit and my ears hurt. That's what people do in GW: they come to forums and say ''Hey ANet, get your head out of your ass and listen to us, you're screwing up''. Trust me, I make a living out of numbers but sometimes it's your common sense that will prevail and tell you something is wrong.

Yikes, did you ever learn even basic debating in a class. First, the burden is on the claimant to prove their case. The defenders of Arena.Net don't actually have to show anything since they are simply tearing down the claimants assertions. Second all your posts are rife with logical fallacies and lack of evidence. Lets see; Ad Homs, Hasty Generalization, Prejudicial Language, Appeal to Popularity. I fear for humanity if you truly make a living in numbers.

sidepocket13 · Aug 02, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

ok maybe i am a pvp noob but when you say PvP content, what do you mean? i thought pvp was kill or be killed? what else do you need?

MSecorsky · Aug 02, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

603 hours was posted, and actually a dev James Phinney responded to it.

It was not made up.

Heh heh... you're so embedded in attack mode that you completely missed the joke.

Time to open the tequila and take of the shoes.

rii · Aug 02, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

pvp content..... balancing first. you cant have two teams fight fairly in a game like this unless the game is balanced. the mere existence of fotm says this. im not saying 'trends', but stuff like nr is imbalancing.
uau, again, this is balance. if two teams fight, and the counter one side knows it needs but hasnt unlocked it is there, then they loose. Was it 'only player skill', no, they hadnt grinded enough.
thats the main points, but other things gripe on personal levels. Personally, id be happy if they just fixed those two things.

sidepocket13 · Aug 02, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

oh, well that makes sense then. thanks!