Curse

michaeldt · Aug 05, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39

I don't think it's right to demand that ANET provide proof to the user when their account is banned. (In fact, i don't think it's necessary, since the user is usually aware of what they were trying to do and will know they have been caught.) Since providing such info to a person who constantly tries to find and make use of game exploits, would do more harm than good. By showing the banned user the evidence you could be showing them, inadvertently, how the info was recorded and what info there was, which can then be used by the user to perhaps use an exploit in future, but not get caught.

Secondly, you weren't banned JUST for logging in and out of your account, but rather all the other actions that took place during this episode. All of that information, in the hands of people who wrote the software and thus are best able to understand what they are looking at, most likely appeared to follow a pattern that is associated with an exploit or hacking attempt.

Working in a place where people are banned from the network for misuse, believe me when i say that you absolutely cannot do it unless you are confident you have enough evidence to prove what the user did. If you don't you have to let it be. It's as simple as that.

do a google search for Guild wars dupes and you will see quite a few results regarding these kinds of exploits. Without attacking the OP, it is possible that you had heard of one of these and were merely trying to see if it worked, or even, you followed the pattern that others did (unknowingly) when the exploit was first discovered.

whatever the case is, and without knowing whether or not you are innocent in all this, i do believe that they have enough evidence to show that your actions followed the necessary steps for the exploit in question (if that is the reason you were banned)

FX8 · Aug 05, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Just so that everyone is clear, I AM frustrated at the fact that I was banned for something I did not do. I agree that the details of the ban is not for all to see afterall that is private matter. However, the accused has EVERY RIGHT to know what he / she was banned for.

For those who did not notice my reluctence to post all details / emails regarding this situation in the first post simply because I do consider this to be between myself and ANet. I only post a summary of what happened to me and ONLY providde some proof (not detailed) where later needed. You are forgetting I am posting this as "help / warning" so others don't end up in my situation.

I can assure Gaile / ANet that I will NOT be posting details of any evidence / proof that may be used by hackers to further exploit the game. Should ANet decides and finally realise their mistake (may it be tomorrow, 1 week or more) I will only post a summary of the outcome e.g. "resolved, ANet appologies etc."

Let's take a simple everyday example "vehicle speeding". Would you pay for a speeding ticket if all it said was "speeding" followed by a $200 or £100? Obviously drivers would demand more so these fines are (in most countries) accompanied by a time, location and even picture. Afterall it is easy for either the police to make a mistake (e.g. faulty camera) or maybe license plate cloning... *think about it*

Damon Windwalker · Aug 05, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

You don't consider this issue to be between yourself and ANet - if you did, you wouldn' have come here (and how many other guild wars related forums?) and post it.

I read your "proof." Your account was banned for a high rate of failed login attempt in a short period of time. This is evidence of someone trying to hack your account - probably a simple, common brute-force hack (or something screwey happening on your system).

It is standard security practice to disable an account that someone is trying to force their way into. Is it your fault? Probably not. Does it suck? Yes. Is it ANet's fault? No - in fact, they are doing exactly what they should be doing in such a situation.

Your attack is misguided, and your assertions about them being condescending and not giving you answers are BS - they gave you the answers, and did it in a straight forward way. Such is the nature of life online. You should be thanking them for taking steps toward saving your account - if someone did brute-force it, you could say goodbye to the account and everything in it. At least now there's just a hold (until the attacks hopefully end) and you can get back to it.

ANet owes you nothing concerning proof of what was happening on your account. They told you about the attacks that were hitting their servers, and the protective steps that they took. They did not permanently ban you. Man up and deal with it (and you might want to talk to a shrink about that paranoia issue...)

TheGreatBoo · Aug 05, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FX8

Perhaps you haven't read my previous post where I've CLEARLY stated "I enjoy this game aside from the..." (scroll back and read *hint, on page 1*). I can assure you that anyone would be just as frustrated if they had been wrongly accused of something they did not do. Everyone makes mistakes, it's common decency to appologies if you've made a mistake.

Useless email is based on perspective, this did not happen to you so I would not expect you to care. However I should only hope this happens to you and see the look on your face. As for fixing the problem, how would I fix this problem considering I have no access to any proof / logs / access to their database? Do you think I can "unban myself" to fix this situation?

This clearly shows you need growing up. Either post constructive opinions or leave it, insults have no place in discussion

.

You didn't even post on this board before I posted that. Learn to read who it was intended for. And yes, they did have evidence to warrant a ban. Anet does not release evidence, nor have they ever. They're not going to change that. They had evidence. It was not a mistake, Gaile JUST stated that. This does not warrant an apology.

Also, read my initial post on this thread. One email about a problem is not useless. Several about the same are. Read what he wrote, then read what I wrote. Theres a difference. You need to read everything instead of forming assumptions. Getting defensive on a point not even made to you is stupid. I didn't insult you or the poster at all.

And I did post constructive opinions. His opinion was the same as it is in game. If you have a problem, cause problems for others. Thats griefing, simple as that. No, I do not retract what I wrote. If you think you were wronged, thats your problem. I didn't post anything about you, and you seem to think that making it seem this way is perfectly fine. And if telling someone to grow up means that you need to grow up, you just went there as well.

FX8 · Aug 05, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

You don't consider this issue to be between yourself and ANet - if you did, you wouldn' have come here (and how many other guild wars related forums?) and post it.

I left 6 days since my first contact with ANet and to post here. I post here to "let" other people know of the problem so they can avoid, I'm getting tired of having to repeat this again and again.

Quote:

I read your "proof." Your account was banned for a high rate of failed login attempt in a short period of time. This is evidence of someone trying to hack your account - probably a simple, common brute-force hack (or something screwey happening on your system).

The filename for the attachment is to confirm to the skeptics whether or not I made up this story or was it an actual submission of the problem to ANet.

Quote:

Your attack is misguided, and your assertions about them being condescending and not giving you answers are BS - they gave you the answers, and did it in a straight forward way. Such is the nature of life online. You should be thanking them for taking steps toward saving your account - if someone did brute-force it, you could say goodbye to the account and everything in it. At least now there's just a hold (until the attacks hopefully end) and you can get back to it.

If there was someone deliberately trying to crack my password then they would simply have said "we've banned your account due to erronous login attemps" (with password entered being wrong). The responses from ANet specifically targeted / insinuated that I "attempted" to HACK the game! There's a difference here, had it been the case (cracking pw) I would have thanked ANet.

hydrak · Aug 05, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

Can you give a legit copy of the emails sent or something? If you have personal information, just wipe it off the screenshot. But if you post the general point of this to the public, Anet will be forced to rectify this error.

This might sound nosy, but it'd be nice if any of these replies you give come with solid proof. If you could give some logs of what this player was doing, shown in the publics eyes, provided that both sides seem to agree with each others proof being valid, then there shouldn't be any problems. I find it ridiculous though I can't do anything about it, that people can make claims without any sufficient proof. How much is many more? 50? 100? 100000? You say you gather logs, may the public see it to prove justice? Or is this just a test of faith? As credible as you may be seeing as your a employee of Anet, I don't think the topic poster should be taken for less just because he is a simple player while you are the PR of Anet.

Ultimately, a thread like this has people like me wanting to get the the bottom of this, and while it may end up gruesome, seeing as only three things can happen ( being either the OP is wrong, Anet is wrong, or a truely honest mistake ), it doesn't seem to be impossible to do.

All the potential GW hackers also would like to see how Anet is logging players, so that they can devise hacks better.

Bottom line, to keep the game secure and deter potential violations, Anet doesn't have to show the public how and why they ban hacking offenders.

SOT · Aug 05, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Why is it that everyone assumes that ANet is -always- to blame? It is NOT in their best business interest to ban accounts/people without ample evidence.

The trick is, they have the evidence. I think a sizable majority of players of games like this are using the "intanet" and do not understand how it works well enough to grasp that, no matter what is said, or what is done, on a game server, it is LOGGED. Period. Anyone who comes out swinging at me saying I am full of it because of the sheer volume of data it would be is a friggin nutjob, because all the emotes, the zone transfers, the gold expenditures, the mob kills and hits are all stored as massive databases that ANET can read at whim, and it is all very descriptive.

Companies like NCSoft do not maintain their business model by NOT knowing what the hell is going on with their own game servers.

Those of you who are actually educable (small tally it seems) take that into consideration the next time you scream PENIS in open chat and also in a whisper. You may not know it or want to admit it (ha!), but that dancing routine you did on wallt who was AFK? Someone saw that.

Sleep tight

hydrak · Aug 05, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

JUST TESTED: I was sitting there logging in and out of my account for 300 times as fast as I can. And Nothing happened to my account. What I just did may raise a red flag and cause a log of my account to be investigated by Anet, but nothing more.

I think you need to do something out of what is considered as normal gameplay many many times to be banned (such as the skill points/experience exploit).

DrSLUGFly · Aug 05, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I do believe it's safe to say that this was a one off event and very rare.

This is the first post I've seen of this kind in my 3 fanatical GW months (I truly do mean fanatical). It makes me feel warm and fuzzy that you got a 1 week ban, this shows that they do indeed have a lesser punishment than capital.

Loviatar · Aug 05, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

Given the time the devs spent on developing and given their experience with other games I'd say, it's not naive.

not to be rude but how many years has microsoft been working on its products trying to anticipate every way a hacker can exploit something?

other major long established software makers?

and we know just how secure those are after years of patches and fixes

there is no way for them to anticipate what will come along tomorrow let alone years ago when the engine for the game was prepared

just my opinion and honestly not a flame and no offence intended

Granamyr · Aug 05, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

"ANet doesn't owe you anything?!!" Wrong. They owe me and FX8 the right to play the game I purchased. Someone show me in the License agreement where it says "many more than dozens of login attempts will be met with a ban...temporary or otherwise". Couldn't find it there? Ok, how about on ANet's website? Ok, so they didn't specify it anywhere....then why are you giving them the benefit of the doubt that they actually do have the proof to warrant their action?

The PR woman says "log file" and somehow that means that they're exhonerated!? Oh, and you can't see the log file. Please tell me you guys aren't that naive and trusting in real life? The cops come arrest you and throw you in jail for a week and you'd accept "log file" as a justification? Even worse, some of you would thank the cops for not giving you the death penalty. You must be writing your posts from Cuba or some other oppressive regime....that's the only rationale.

Try to remember that the burden of proof lies with ANet, not FX8. You should be assuming FX8 is innocent until proven guilty and he has given much more proof of his innocence than ANet has. Maybe ANet doesn't owe us any proof but we're all justifiable in holding their feet to the flame as a result. They can't have it both ways and be this blame-free corporation all the while never giving any proof of their innocence. It just doesn't work that way -- neither legally or in the hearts and minds of the public.

Ashley Twig · Aug 05, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I don't think that ArenaNet or NCSoft owes US anything. They don't have to prove their reasoning behind bannings or any action they take against player accounts.

You might be right about this.
But at this point, distrust usually keeps crawling in.
At some point companies can do as they please, can't they?
And as long as people believe that they can put trust in a companies action, it all works out. But what if people are starting to distrust a company? It's bad new for the company.
So the company should try to turn distrust back into trust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

This is -their- game and those are -their- servers.

Not for long, if people start loosing trust and stop playing.

I personally feel, that a person is innocent as long as his/her guilt is not prooven. That's, however, german law works. Might be different elsewhere.

Since the OP chose the comunity (us) to be the judge of this, I will believe that s/hes not guilty unless prooven otherwise.

I think it was only a matter of time that false positives popped up.
And I don't like the attitude behind these "we don't have to justify any of our actions" statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loviatar

not to be rude but how many years has microsoft been working on its products trying to anticipate every way a hacker can exploit something?

That's not being rude to me, but being rude to aNet

stating that their developers are as unquialified as those microsoft employs.

There are operating systems that are less vulnerable than MS is, and that took less years to develop.

The login/logout exploit that seems to exist in many other games is not new, is it?
So yes, they should've anticipated that sort of attacks, and yes, they should've come up with a safe solution to those attacks.

Spartan2 · Aug 05, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Hmm... I just stumbled upon this thread of interest, as it seems, and couldn't help but adding a bit to it. The rule for all successful, yet highly ignorant, arguments is to turn them into a "black and white" debate: meaning that there can only be a battle of polar opposites with no inbetween. The OP has definitely turned this argument into one of those; if you agree with him, you are for the players, if you don't, you are for those "big. mean and scary corporations". No matter if this post was made in pure of heart or in spite, this is a classic troll post. If you want to see results by posting a problem you are having or trying to "enlighten" the community about the possible problems they may encounter through "regular gameplay", as you have called it, then you must state clearly and concisely all facts you have at present; then there will be fewer nay-sayers that call out your lack of evidence.

It is very clear, at this point, that you are not stating what programs you are running while GuildWars is up, how often and how rapidly you change characters in succession, etc.

You could be running numerous programs to eat up your bandwidth and hopefully cause a dupe; you aren't doing anything wrong in-game, just switching items around to "trade", like you said, but outside the game, you are trying to exploit the system.

While I know many trolls and know most to be quite pleasant to be around, this one is an unfound troll: no reason to be here other than to stir things up on a board that has done nothing to him.

By the way, Ashley Twig, please stop twisting the original premise of this thread around to bash others who you deem not standing on your "correct side". For all of those that feel that ArenaNet owes them something, they don't; you agreed to an EULA that stated if ArenaNet found any proof-positive towards you breaking it, then they have the right to permanently or temporarily ban your access to a character or account.

hydrak · Aug 05, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

"ANet doesn't owe you anything?!!" Wrong. They owe me and FX8 the right to play the game I purchased. Someone show me in the License agreement where it says "many more than dozens of login attempts will be met with a ban...temporary or otherwise". Couldn't find it there? Ok, how about on ANet's website? Ok, so they didn't specify it anywhere....then why are you giving them the benefit of the doubt that they actually do have the proof to warrant their action?

The PR woman says "log file" and somehow that means that they're exhonerated!? Oh, and you can't see the log file. Please tell me you guys aren't that naive and trusting in real life? The cops come arrest you and throw you in jail for a week and you'd accept "log file" as a justification? Even worse, some of you would thank the cops for not giving you the death penalty. You must be writing your posts from Cuba or some other oppressive regime....that's the only rationale.

Try to remember that the burden of proof lies with ANet, not FX8. You should be assuming FX8 is innocent until proven guilty and he has given much more proof of his innocence than ANet has. Maybe ANet doesn't owe us any proof but we're all justifiable in holding their feet to the flame as a result. They can't have it both ways and be this blame-free corporation all the while never giving any proof of their innocence. It just doesn't work that way -- neither legally or in the hearts and minds of the public.

First, what happened to you?

Second, what has FX8 given to us as proof? I just tested his claim (also see other posts in this thread about log in/outs) by logging in/out about 300 times, and nothing happened to me.

Granamyr · Aug 05, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Nothing happened to me however I inserted myself into the statement in response to the posts that "ANet doesn't owe you/us anything." What exactly did we pay $50 for if they don't owe us anything? Was that a donation? ANet isn't a church or charity.

FX8 has described his actions in-game and images of his emails to the support team. "Proof" is a relative term in this discussion but if claiming that you logged in/out 300 times is proof to the contrary of FX8's claims, well then his claims that he wasn't trying to cheat hold equal weight. Regardless, either form of "proof" that you or FX8 have demonstrated hold a lot more value than just saying "log file" and refusing to show it. Wouldn't you agree?

TheGreatBoo · Aug 05, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

The PR woman says "log file" and somehow that means that they're exhonerated!? Oh, and you can't see the log file. Please tell me you guys aren't that naive and trusting in real life? The cops come arrest you and throw you in jail for a week and you'd accept "log file" as a justification? Even worse, some of you would thank the cops for not giving you the death penalty. You must be writing your posts from Cuba or some other oppressive regime....that's the only rationale.

Try to remember that the burden of proof lies with ANet, not FX8. You should be assuming FX8 is innocent until proven guilty and he has given much more proof of his innocence than ANet has. Maybe ANet doesn't owe us any proof but we're all justifiable in holding their feet to the flame as a result. They can't have it both ways and be this blame-free corporation all the while never giving any proof of their innocence. It just doesn't work that way -- neither legally or in the hearts and minds of the public.

Wow. Another unappreciative player out to get anet. First of all, no, they didn't release evidence, and they're not going to. Second of all, he also did not prove himself. They're both on their words. No one has proof. Yes, his account was temporarily banned. He has this proof. He has no proof that he did not do any cheating/hackin etc. Why would anet temporarily ban a customer though? If it was injust, all it would do is incite rants and raves, which it already has, and possibly drive a player away. It's illogical. Second of all, we have no right to hold anets "feet over the fire". Yes, we're customers, and we have a say, but no one has a right to do that to anyone. Too many people think that since they pay, they have a right to do anything. I can't stress how wrong this is.

Aniewiel · Aug 05, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

The trick is, they have the evidence. I think a sizable majority of players of games like this are using the "intanet" and do not understand how it works well enough to grasp that, no matter what is said, or what is done, on a game server, it is LOGGED. Period. Anyone who comes out swinging at me saying I am full of it because of the sheer volume of data it would be is a friggin nutjob, because all the emotes, the zone transfers, the gold expenditures, the mob kills and hits are all stored as massive databases that ANET can read at whim, and it is all very descriptive.

Companies like NCSoft do not maintain their business model by NOT knowing what the hell is going on with their own game servers.

Those of you who are actually educable (small tally it seems) take that into consideration the next time you scream PENIS in open chat and also in a whisper. You may not know it or want to admit it (ha!), but that dancing routine you did on wallt who was AFK? Someone saw that.

Sleep tight

This is what my argument has been from the beginning. NOTHING we do on or near NCSoft's servers is 'hidden' or 'untraceable'. It is all there in black and white for them to access and do with as they please.

I have had a nice PM conversation with the OP and he is very concerned and is going to work with ANet and NCSoft to try to figure this whole mess out. I am sure that they will give him an idea of what it is that caused the banning and then he/they can move on from there.

As Sluggy said: This is a VERY random event. Nothing of its kind has been posted before so I think it safe to say that it isn't something that is going to effect thousands of users.

Also, several people have 'experimented' with the log in/log out thing to no visible effect. Let's hope it was "just one of those things".

And finally, as Spartan2 said, there could be other reasons, more innocent ones, that might be more software related and/or software incompatibility issues.

All this said, the ONLY ones who will be able to solve this are RX8 and AN/NCS.

Strong Fist · Aug 05, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I ahve to say that I suspect that there is a lot more to this story.

I switch characters probably 2-3 times per day (that I'm playing) - different characters in different stages of the game, combined with guildies with characters in differen stages...

...never had a problem.

I've also cycled through all 4 of my characters (in fairly quick succession) in order to go through their inventories to consolidate crafting materials into storage when I needed to raise some quick case...

...no problems.

So - I am somewhat skeptical...

Same. I switch characters a lot every day, and nothings happened. Is there more to the story perhaps?.....sounds fishy

hydrak · Aug 05, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

Nothing happened to me however I inserted myself into the statement in response to the posts that "ANet doesn't owe you/us anything." What exactly did we pay $50 for if they don't owe us anything? Was that a donation? ANet isn't a church or charity.

FX8 has described his actions in-game and images of his emails to the support team. "Proof" is a relative term in this discussion but if claiming that you logged in/out 300 times is proof to the contrary of FX8's claims, well then his claims that he wasn't trying to cheat hold equal weight. Regardless, either form of "proof" that you or FX8 have demonstrated hold a lot more value than just saying "log file" and refusing to show it. Wouldn't you agree?

You should also read posts from other people in this thread and see what are their experiences with log in/outs. So to me, his proof here is nothing but false claim.

Second, to answer your question, I'm one of those people who don't want ANET to explain publicly why they ban a hacking offender.

Granamyr · Aug 05, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Wow. Another unappreciative player out to get anet.

Out to get Anet, what does that mean? Unappreciative!? Who cares whether I appreciate them or not!? That has nothing to do with this. If I pay for a good or service, I expect to receive that good or service.....appreciation doesn't play a part.

If you go to your local McDonald's, pay money for a hamburger and then they don't give it to you, what would you do? Let's assume you're semi-intelligent, you'd ask "why?"
Their response: "Well we have a receipt here that says you attempted to do something bad."
"Can I see the receipt?"
"No. Security reasons."
"What do you think I was attempting to do?"
"Well people that walk in and out of our restaurant are usually trying to steal our secret Big Mac recipe. You walked in and out more than a dozen times."
"Is walking in and out of the store more than a dozen times against the rules?"
"No."
"Then give me my hamburger."
"Maybe in a week we'll let you have it."

Why would you defend McDonald's in the above situation? Why do you assume the situation is any different than the one FX8 has described and the analogy I have provided?

Holding someone's feet to the flame is an expression not meant to be taken literally. Hopefully that assumption of semi-intelligence was not done in error and you are just unfamiliar with English. Hopefully.